Is the God of the NT the same angry God of the OT? I have heard things that make me scared to death to read the OT. (no kidding) Yet all of the Bible should be read I would assume.
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God of the NT?
- Thread starter GraceAnn2
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pinkputter
unending love, amazing grace
Right. The OT is still legitimate. It is still the same God, but it is sometimes hard to understand a God can be both angry and loving at the same time. What helps me have a better understanding about this is to think of your favorite human. Think that what makes them a little edgy ( i guess you could consider this God's anger) is also what you love about them. Now consider God. He has these characteristics we do, after all we were made in His image. (Gen 1:27) but He is absolutely Perfect. He is not in sinful flesh like we are so His perfection and goodness is complete. So yes, I do see it being somewhat of a paradox, but the more I come to know God more the more it makes perfect sense.
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pinkputter
unending love, amazing grace
Also....side note/?
What do you think about God being a "jealous" God?
It makes sense that He is...he is jealous of worldly desires/the enemy that may get our attention in this life and He does not like it.
However, I don't know if I like the concept of Him being "jealous." Isn't that a negative characteristic? One thats present in fleshly desires possibly even the enemy?
The enemy's characteristics are obvious: greed lust hate. But is jealousy one of them? If so, is it ok for an all-powerful God to have this quality, too?
What do you think about God being a "jealous" God?
It makes sense that He is...he is jealous of worldly desires/the enemy that may get our attention in this life and He does not like it.
However, I don't know if I like the concept of Him being "jealous." Isn't that a negative characteristic? One thats present in fleshly desires possibly even the enemy?
The enemy's characteristics are obvious: greed lust hate. But is jealousy one of them? If so, is it ok for an all-powerful God to have this quality, too?
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God's Word
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GraceAnn2: They are one and the same. However, there are a lot of things in the Old Testament that were allowed ("suffered") simply due to the hardness of the hearts of the people with whom God was dealing. IOW, God made stipulations that weren't really part of His original design/plan at times. Also, there are a lot of "types" and "shadows" in the Old Testament that have now been fulfilled in Christ. For example, it is no longer necessary to sacrifice the Passover Lamb as Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of such a "type" and He was sacrificed, once and for all, nearly two thousand years ago.
Anyhow, God is still angry against sin and rightly so. Interestingly enough, I just watched a sermon earlier today in the General Theology section of this forum that did a good job at explaining God's righteous anger as far as I'm concerned. The video is about 1 hour and 12 minutes long, but if you'd like to watch it, then here is the link:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7575641/
Anyhow, God is still angry against sin and rightly so. Interestingly enough, I just watched a sermon earlier today in the General Theology section of this forum that did a good job at explaining God's righteous anger as far as I'm concerned. The video is about 1 hour and 12 minutes long, but if you'd like to watch it, then here is the link:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7575641/
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>> He is not in sinful flesh like we are so His perfection and goodness is complete. So yes, I do see it being somewhat of a paradox, but the more I come to know God more the more it makes perfect sense.
Thanks Pinkputter--I hope that I will be bold enough to read the OT one day and come to some understanding of things I have only heard about that frighten me.
Thanks Pinkputter--I hope that I will be bold enough to read the OT one day and come to some understanding of things I have only heard about that frighten me.
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>>What do you think about God being a "jealous" God?
Perhaps His jealousy is different from what we humans deem a "jealous" act.
Please accept the only example I can think of as a non-christian. I have heard that some folks worship Mary and as far as I know God alone deserves our worship.
Mary could be honored but not worshipped, right?
Perhaps His jealousy is different from what we humans deem a "jealous" act.
Please accept the only example I can think of as a non-christian. I have heard that some folks worship Mary and as far as I know God alone deserves our worship.
Mary could be honored but not worshipped, right?
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pinkputter
unending love, amazing grace
Right. At your own time God will show you what you need to know about Him. To be afright about an all-knowing and all-loving God? Yikes! Grow at your own pace. That is what God's grace is for, to allow us mistakes and growth. There will be a time and place for that sort of study and I am confident it will only strengthen your relationship with Him.
Again, you are absolutely right. I am not Catholic myself, but from my understanding Catholics celebrate Mary as Queen of Heaven not because they worship her (after all, though she is the highest of all God's creatures, she nonetheless is not God) but because we recognize that she is the means that GOD chooses to bring Christ to the world--in history, today, and all eternity. She offers us the means by which we may crush the serpent satan's head and find refuge in Christ.
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Pinkputter--can you explain this scripture to me?
Psalm137 vs.8-9
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
Psalm137 vs.8-9
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
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God's Word
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pinkputter said:
GraceAnn2: I know that this isn't your quote, but I'd just like to show you that Mary certainly didn't deem herself to be "the highest of all God's creatures". In fact, God chose her for the exact opposite reason.
Luke 1:46-48
"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."
Mary was a lowly handmaiden. True, she is still called "blessed" in that she was the chosen vessel through whom Christ was born, but she isn't "the Queen of Heaven" by any means. In fact, Old Testament Jews were chastened by God for their worship of such a "Queen of Heaven" long before Mary was born. You can read about it in Jeremiah 7:18 and 44:17, if you'd like to. Just as an FYI. Thanks.
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Tzaousios
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The style and content of this passage is firmly within the genre known as "imprecatory psalms." Thus, dark, foreboding imagery (often hyperbolic) is used to make a point.
Although atheists like to use this as a favorite prooftext with which to denigrate Christianity, they do so (often purposefully) ignore the context and genre.
Basically, the point of the imagery is to say that divine judgment and justice is coming upon Babylon for its atrocities against Israel. It does not mean to convey that dashing babies against rocks is appropriate, justified, or correct as a rule of thumb.
Indeed, terrible things like this happened in ancient warfare; Babylon would receive its punishment within the course of history and the destruction of war.
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Psalm137 vs.8-9
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
This is my post that I have decided needs its own thread for others to add comments on. So I will start a new thread for it.
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
This is my post that I have decided needs its own thread for others to add comments on. So I will start a new thread for it.
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Good question and why I stick more to the NT than the OT
Whereas the LORD judged people in the OT, it is now Jesus who has been given that authority by His Father in the NT.
This is interesting:
Jeremiah 17:10 I YHVH, searching heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings.
[Reve 2:23]
Young) Matthew 28:18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them saying "given to Me was all authority in heaven and on earth"
Reve 2:23 And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death, and shall be knowing all the Outcalleds that I am the One searching kidneys/reigns/nefrouV <3510> and hearts
and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye.
[Jeremiah 17:10]
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
*snip*
The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven
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pinkputter
unending love, amazing grace
Honey...you can go ahead and be straightforward. I think GraceAnn is bright enough to decifer what she deems Truth, where she finds Truth or not. You can respectfully disagree, and if so, you do with ME not with her "interpretation" of it. No need to beat around the bush about it.
I am telling you what Catholics believe. I am not Catholic, as I have stated, but I believe they are right in this interpretation.
In a nutshell, God created her as an embodiment of His Grace to all of us and as a vessel for Himself to be born as a man. That is Mary's role in Christianity. To all Christians. Not just Catholics. You are obviously not Catholic and can disagree about what you like, but by disagreeing with a basic view held by so many Christians, you are I'm afraid in the minority. I believe if you pursue God, you will find Truth, whatever that ends up being for you.
bottom line, GraceAnn had an inquiry about people worshipping Mary. My explanation was merely to explain that most Christians, and most Catholics for that matter do not uphold this belief. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
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God's Word
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pinkputter said:
Actually, according to forum guidelines, I was as straightforward as I'm allowed to be.
Anyhow, in accordance with my chosen username, I provided GraceAnn2 with God's Word on the matter. Hopefully, she'll choose to embrace that over anyone's opinion...no matter how popular it may be.
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pinkputter
unending love, amazing grace
Okay thanks but God's word doesn't address whether believers worship Mary. That's all I was explaining. I appreciate your civility.
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God's Word
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Since the OP is the one who initially asked about Mary and worship, I'll address the topic a little further. Mary, the self-professed, lowly handmaiden of the Lord, said that from now on people would call her "blessed". In fact, the angel Gabriel said something similar.
Luke 1:28
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that are highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
Now, as we all know, there are those who have turned this into the "Hail Mary". Was this God's intent? Mary, for those who do not already know, was NOT the first woman to be called "blessed". For example, in the Old Testament book of Judges we read:
"Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent. He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish. She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples."
Jael hammered "a nail of the tent" (Judges 4:21) or a tent peg/spike into the head of a fleeing captain of Jabin's army and killed him. For this, she was told that she is "blessed ABOVE women". Should she be "worshipped"? Should we be praying to her (Perhaps some people already are...I don't want to know...it would be a tremendous grief to me if they are) as well? Just because someone is "blessed" doesn't mean that they ought to be worshipped. Read the beatitudes from Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew chapter 5. There are enough "blessings" for all. Did JESUS honor Mary above others? No, He did not. We read:
Luke 11:27-28
"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."
Jesus said that RATHER THAN the womb that bare Him or the breasts that gave Him milk as a child being "blessed", those who are truly "blessed" are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Elsewhere, we read:
Matthew 12:46-50
"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Jesus asked who His mother is, didn't He? He sure did. He also provided us with the correct response to this question when He said:
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, AND MOTHER."
That ought to settle the issue...if we esteem the words of Jesus above those of any other, that is. One might also rightly ask why Jesus' mother and brothers were "standing without and desiring to speak with Him". We know that Jesus' brothers didn't believe in Him at this time.
John 7:5
"For neither did his brethren believe in him."
Is it possible that Mary, in spite of what she had been told by the angel, was having her own doubts at this time as well? Seems plausible to me. Also, it's been suggested that Mary "is the highest of all God's creatures", but this is not what scripture teaches.
Matthew 11:11
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
Jesus said that John the Baptist was the "greatest" of those born of women...NOT Mary. He also said that the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. In God's kingdom, the way up is down. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble/lowly. Whoever will be the greatest must be the servant of all.
Anyhow, that was just for the record in accordance with God's Word which I personally esteem above all others.
Luke 1:28
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that are highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
Now, as we all know, there are those who have turned this into the "Hail Mary". Was this God's intent? Mary, for those who do not already know, was NOT the first woman to be called "blessed". For example, in the Old Testament book of Judges we read:
"Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent. He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish. She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples."
Jael hammered "a nail of the tent" (Judges 4:21) or a tent peg/spike into the head of a fleeing captain of Jabin's army and killed him. For this, she was told that she is "blessed ABOVE women". Should she be "worshipped"? Should we be praying to her (Perhaps some people already are...I don't want to know...it would be a tremendous grief to me if they are) as well? Just because someone is "blessed" doesn't mean that they ought to be worshipped. Read the beatitudes from Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew chapter 5. There are enough "blessings" for all. Did JESUS honor Mary above others? No, He did not. We read:
Luke 11:27-28
"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."
Jesus said that RATHER THAN the womb that bare Him or the breasts that gave Him milk as a child being "blessed", those who are truly "blessed" are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Elsewhere, we read:
Matthew 12:46-50
"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Jesus asked who His mother is, didn't He? He sure did. He also provided us with the correct response to this question when He said:
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, AND MOTHER."
That ought to settle the issue...if we esteem the words of Jesus above those of any other, that is. One might also rightly ask why Jesus' mother and brothers were "standing without and desiring to speak with Him". We know that Jesus' brothers didn't believe in Him at this time.
John 7:5
"For neither did his brethren believe in him."
Is it possible that Mary, in spite of what she had been told by the angel, was having her own doubts at this time as well? Seems plausible to me. Also, it's been suggested that Mary "is the highest of all God's creatures", but this is not what scripture teaches.
Matthew 11:11
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
Jesus said that John the Baptist was the "greatest" of those born of women...NOT Mary. He also said that the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. In God's kingdom, the way up is down. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble/lowly. Whoever will be the greatest must be the servant of all.
Anyhow, that was just for the record in accordance with God's Word which I personally esteem above all others.
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