God not needed in Earth Formation

[ChordatesLegacy]

For creationists a magical mystical deity is needed to create the Earth. However a magical mystical deity is not needed, all the naturally occurring elements that make up the earth either formed in the early universe, i.e. hydrogen, helium or formed in star processes.

The lightest elements (hydrogen, helium, deuterium, lithium) were produced in the Big Bang nucleosynthesis. According to the Big Bang theory, the temperatures in the early universe were so high that fusion reactions could take place. This resulted in the formation of light elements: hydrogen, deuterium, helium (two isotopes), lithium and trace amounts of beryllium.
Nuclear fusion in stars converts hydrogen into helium in all stars. In stars less massive than the Sun, this is the only reaction that takes place. In stars more massive than the Sun (but less massive than about 8 solar masses), further reactions that convert helium to carbon and oxygen take place in succesive stages of stellar evolution. In the very massive stars, the reaction chain continues to produce elements like silicon upto iron.

Elements higher than iron cannot be formed through fusion as one has to supply energy for the reaction to take place. However, we do see elements higher than iron around us. So how did these elements form? The answer is supernovae. In a supernova explosion, neutron capture reactions take place (this is not fusion), leading to the formation of heavy elements. This is the reason why it is said that most of the stuff that we see around us come from stars and supernovae (the heavy elements part). If you go into technical details, then there are two processes of neutron capture called rapid process (r-process) and the slow process (s-process), and these lead to formation of different elements.

LINK


Again no god needed except in the minds of the mortally challenged

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

How we got to the present day cosmological composition.

The Pre-Stellar Epoch
The Big Bang jumpstarts the initial large-scale production of hydrogen, deuterium, helium and lithium.

The Epoch of Very Massive Stars
The earliest stages of heavy element formation in the Galaxy were dominated by stars with masses ten times that of the Sun or more, and lifetimes of a few million years or less. These supermassive stars produced small amounts of all the elements, but their presence can be identified most clearly by excesses of elements like strontium, yttrium and zirconium. Released by supernovae and absorbed by new star-forming clouds, these elements were incorporated into the next generation of stars.

The Europium Epoch
For the next 30-100 million years, element formation was dominated by supernovae from stars with about 8-10 times the mass of the Sun. These longer-lived stars enriched the Milky Way in heavier elements like barium, europium, and other lanthanide elements in the Periodic Table, such as cerium.

The Double Shell Epoch
A major shift from previous epochs, lasting from about 100 million to a billion years after the Galaxy formed, it featured stars with perhaps 3-7 times the mass of the Sun. These stars produced more strontium, barium, and some particular lanthanides from nuclear-burning interior shells during the later stages of their evolution, not by supernovae. Their products are characterized by more solar-like distribution of heavy elements.

The Iron Epoch
From one billion to three billion years after the Galaxy formed, supernovae from white dwarf stars a bit larger than the Sun produced large amounts of iron. The addition of large amounts of iron to the Milky Way's chemical stew can be deduced by the relative decrease of heavier metals within stars which hold about 1/100th of the Sun's overall metal abundance.


LINK

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Time line for this thread, showing the sun and earth's history.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

A supernova explosion: SN 1987A in the Large Magellanic Cloud ​

The most massive stars end their lives in some of the most spectacular and violent events in the Universe. A star with mass more than about 8 times that of the Sun lives a relatively brief life as it struggles to maintain stability against its own gravity. This struggle ends in surrender, as the star finally collapses under its own weight. The result is an immensely powerful explosion--a supernova--whose brilliance can briefly outshine an entire galaxy's worth of normal stars. In the aftermath, a compact central object remains, in the form of neutron star or black hole. However, most of the star's material is launched through space in a shock wave. This matter contains the ashes of the star's nuclear burning, in the form of newly created heavy elements. The blast wave carries this material, and as it advances it sweeps up and mixes with the nearby interstellar gas.
Supernova explosions play a crucial role in the "ecology" of our Galaxy: they act as engines to cycle energy and heavy elements into interstellar space, and the blast waves created by their explosions shock and stir interstellar gas, and may compress some interstellar gas clouds to the point driving them to collapse and form new stars.

Rapidly expanding, superheated remains of a supernova blast 300 years ago, seen with the X-ray vision of the Chandra observatory. ​

LINK


No need for god, the processes of element enrichment are there for all to see.

 

[Holy Roller]

Why must you always play the horses ass and assume a Creationist's G-d created it all?

 

[Shemjaza]

Why must you always play the horses ass and assume a Creationist's G-d created it all?

I don't understand?
Are you implying that another god made the rest of the stuff or that it doesn't actually exist?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Why must you always play the horses ass and assume a Creationist's G-d created it all?

So much respect for God (hence the not spelling out the full name) and yet so little respect for public discourse. Was it really necessary to START with such coarse language? Couldn't we have "built up" to the bile?

Yeah, sure, I guess it was. Feels good, doesn't it?

 

[thaumaturgy]

I don't understand?
Are you implying that another god made the rest of the stuff or that it doesn't actually exist?

I'm guessing that Holy Roller actually meant to say something along the lines of "why can't you assume some Creationists would allow for God to use 'natural processes' to create some things." Instead he went directly for the "attack".

Since we all remember Luke 6:31 (And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.) that means that rather than answer his question you can just go ahead and call him any manner of offensive names you can think of. If you'd like some suggestions I can offer some.

But since I'm not a "christian" or a "Completed Jew" as Holy Roller is, I fear I would be banned from Christian Forums for speaking as he does.

Just goes to show, Holy Roller is hardly holy but likes to roll in it!

 

[AV1611VET]

For creationists a magical mystical deity is needed to create the Earth. However a magical mystical deity is not needed, all the naturally occurring elements that make up the earth either formed in the early universe, i.e. hydrogen, helium or formed in star processes.

Care to take this challenge?

If not --- how about you just tell us where this "early universe" came from in the first place?

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Care to take this challenge?

If not --- how about you just tell us where this "early universe" came from in the first place?

Ha, it’s god of the gaps again.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ha, it’s god of the gaps again.

I take it that's a "no" on both counts?

Well then, care to tell us where those gaps came from in the first place?

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

I take it that's a "no" on both counts?

Well then, care to tell us where those gaps came from in the first place?

The gaps are in human knowledge of the natural world and personally I think there will always be gaps in human understanding. This has always been the case, since two men sitting on a log, warming themselves on a fire uttered the word WHY for the first time. Since then we have been on a quest to answer our questions. When answers were not forthcoming we invented gods, including your very resent god to fill in the gaps and that is exactly what you did when you asked the question “what created energy and mass, which are the same thing of course).

Inventing a more complex system (i.e. the god system) to explain that which is not known in a simpler system (i.e. the universe) is utter ignorance, practically as you make no attempt at explaining how you god system was created, other than saying the god system was always there.

Let’s just say the mass and energy were always there.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

This is where almost all the elements that make us and our planet up came from, not this particular nebula, but something very simular.

The Cat's Eye Nebula: Dying Star Creates Fantasy-like Sculpture of Gas and Dust

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Orion Nebula's Planetary Nurseries Torched By Radiation from Hot Star

LINK Hubble

New observations of the Orion Nebula at infrared wavelengths reveal that small dust grains located in disks around young stars are growing, taking the initial steps toward forming planets despite bathing in a flood of radiation from highly luminous stars. The properties of dust in disks around young stars plays a pivotal role in understanding star formation and determining the origins of planets in our Solar system and in extrasolar planetary systems as well.

The Orion Nebula, located about 1500 light years away, is an energetic stellar nursery giving birth to thousands of young, Sun-like stars with protoplanetary disks. But a few of these newborn stars are 10 to 30 times the mass of our Sun and 10,000 times as bright. These massive stars bathe the entire region in harsh ultraviolet radiation which evaporates the protoplanetary disks of their lower mass neighbors.​

LINK

Is on it great that god is not needed to explain planetary formation, but no problem for creationists, she “that is god” can still hide behind the veil of the big bang.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

In commemoration of NASA's Hubble Space Telescope completing its 100,000th orbit in its 18th year of exploration and discovery, scientists at the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, Md., have aimed Hubble to take a snapshot of a dazzling region of celestial birth and renewal.
Hubble peered into a small portion of the nebula near the star cluster NGC 2074 (upper, left). The region is a firestorm of raw stellar creation, perhaps triggered by a nearby supernova explosion. It lies about 170,000 light-years away near the Tarantula nebula, one of the most active star-forming regions in our Local Group of galaxies.
The three-dimensional-looking image reveals dramatic ridges and valleys of dust, serpent-head "pillars of creation," and gaseous filaments glowing fiercely under torrential ultraviolet radiation. The region is on the edge of a dark molecular cloud that is an incubator for the birth of new stars.
The high-energy radiation blazing out from clusters of hot young stars already born in NGC 2074 is sculpting the wall of the nebula by slowly eroding it away. Another young cluster may be hidden beneath a circle of brilliant blue gas at center, bottom.
In this approximately 100-light-year-wide fantasy-like landscape, dark towers of dust rise above a glowing wall of gases on the surface of the molecular cloud. The seahorse-shaped pillar at lower, right is approximately 20 light-years long, roughly four times the distance between our Sun and the nearest star, Alpha Centauri.
The region is in the Large Magellanic Cloud (LMC), a satellite of our Milky Way galaxy. It is a fascinating laboratory for observing star-formation regions and their evolution. Dwarf galaxies like the LMC are considered to be the primitive building blocks of larger galaxies.
This representative color image was taken on August 10, 2008, with Hubble's Wide Field Planetary Camera 2. Red shows emission from sulfur atoms, green from glowing hydrogen, and blue from glowing oxygen.

LINK

Science explains so much more that creationism.

 

[thaumaturgy]

I take it that's a "no" on both counts?

Well then, care to tell us where those gaps came from in the first place?

Interesting point. I like the Stephen Hawking approach to this question.

Asked in October 2005 on the British daytime chat show Richard & Judy, to explain his assertion that the question “What came before the Big Bang?” was meaningless, he compared it to asking “What lies north of the North Pole?”(SOURCE)

If you wish to push God into that particular gap that is your prerogative. What does that tell you about God?

Note that after the Big Bang we can make many testable hypotheses about how things work (how do you think we understand the 3 kelvin background radiation in space?)

Ultimately it comes down to the "unfalsifiable". God used to be needed to explain the most mundane things until He gets pushed to smaller and smaller gaps. Ultimately there are questions that we can't answer. Maybe never will be able to.

But God's track record has been one of being pushed further and further back into the gaps. If the gaps get smaller God inhabits less space for science.

So if you wish to hang your challenge on the creation of mass/energy ex nihilo, then be our guest. Which God did that? How do you know it was yours? Seems that once matter and energy are created and start following physical laws there is little evidence favoring one god over another.

 

[AV1611VET]

If you wish to push God into that particular gap that is your prerogative. What does that tell you about God?

We know where the gaps lie, don't we?

 

[thaumaturgy]

We know where the gaps lie, don't we?

I've tried like 5 times now to respond to this post, but I simply can't do it without making some really nasty comment. So I'll have to let it be.

Oh what the hey...

Some people are proud of the apparent gap between their ears. Some put god into that gap and he just gets swallowed up by the immenseness.

 

[AV1611VET]

I've tried like 5 times now to respond to this post, but I simply can't do it without making some really nasty comment. So I'll have to let it be.

Oh what the hey...

Some people are proud of the apparent gap between their ears. Some put god into that gap and he just gets swallowed up by the immenseness.

No offense taken.

 

[thaumaturgy]

No offense taken.

Good cuz that was really hard to type.

(I felt bad when I wrote it, just because of the various Christian friends of mine whom I respect and with whom I've had many interesting discussions of religion.)