God makes no distinction between Jew and greek, why do so many scholars like to ?

[Guojing]

You are correct, Midian was one of Abraham’s children. But, Midian was not one of Jacob’s children, and it was Jacob who was renamed Israel. So no, it is not possible for Jethro to be one of the nation of Israel. And just being a descendant of Abraham doesn’t make you one of the children of the Promise. Esau was a descendant of Abraham, and he was not a child of the Promise. Ishmael was a descendant of Abraham, and he was not a child of the Promise. Only the children of Abraham through Issac through Jacob (Israel) were the children of the Promise.

At least now you are willing to acknowledge that he did descend from Abraham.

Now, whether he was physically circumcised or not, or a member of Israel was not explicitly stated, although there is plenty of scripture evidence that indicated he was.

Jethro was not only a distant relative of Moses, but also seems to have continued worshipping the one true God of Abraham. Jethro's faithfulness to Abraham's God can be seen in what he taught his daughters. His daughter Zipporah was obviously familiar with the covenant of circumcision because she performed the rite on their son when Moses was facing God's anger apparently for not having carried out this command (Exodus 4:24–26). Jethro "rejoiced for all the good that the LORD had done to Israel" (Exodus 18:9) and he "brought a burnt offering and sacrifices to God" (Exodus 18:12). It seems, then, that Jethro was related to Moses both through blood and through shared faith in God (Exodus 18:10–12).

 

[Doug Brents]

At least now you are willing to acknowledge that he did descend from Abraham.

Now, whether he was physically circumcised or not, or a member of Israel was not explicitly stated, although there is plenty of scripture evidence that indicated he was.

Jethro was not only a distant relative of Moses, but also seems to have continued worshipping the one true God of Abraham. Jethro's faithfulness to Abraham's God can be seen in what he taught his daughters. His daughter Zipporah was obviously familiar with the covenant of circumcision because she performed the rite on their son when Moses was facing God's anger apparently for not having carried out this command (Exodus 4:24–26). Jethro "rejoiced for all the good that the LORD had done to Israel" (Exodus 18:9) and he "brought a burnt offering and sacrifices to God" (Exodus 18:12). It seems, then, that Jethro was related to Moses both through blood and through shared faith in God (Exodus 18:10–12).

He was still a Gentile (any people not of Israel). And he continued to worship God, and possibly heard from God. ASI is said, that is just what I believe based on the evidence I see in Scripture. But this is not really a “Salvation issue), so I am going to leave it here.

 

[Guojing]

He was still a Gentile (any people not of Israel). And he continued to worship God, and possibly heard from God. ASI is said, that is just what I believe based on the evidence I see in Scripture. But this is not really a “Salvation issue), so I am going to leave it here.

So despite those scripture passages, you still stand firm that he did not join the nation of Israel.

Alright then, you have a right to your opinion.

 

[Doug Brents]

So despite those scripture passages, you still stand firm that he did not join the nation of Israel.

Alright then, you have a right to your opinion.

No, he did not join the nation of Israel. He went back to his own country (Midian) after meeting Moses at Sinai and giving him some advice. It says that clearly in the Scripture I cited a post or two ago.

 

[Guojing]

No, he did not join the nation of Israel. He went back to his own country (Midian) after meeting Moses at Sinai and giving him some advice. It says that clearly in the Scripture I cited a post or two ago.

Your error is thinking that "Israel" represents a geographical location.

Israel is not a location, its a people group, as I already stated in Esther 8:17.

There are many members of Israel who are scattered abroad (1 Peter 1:1)

 

[Doug Brents]

Your error is thinking that "Israel" represents a geographical location.

Israel is not a location, its a people group, as I already stated in Esther 8:17.

There are many members of Israel who are scattered abroad (1 Peter 1:1)

There is no error in my thinking (on this subject at least). Obviously Israel is a people, that is why I said they are the descendants of Israel (Jacob); people, not a place.

And yes, there are many who are physically descended from Jacob who are scattered abroad, but there weren’t any scattered at this time. They all came to Joseph in Egypt with their father, Jacob. And all of them stayed there, becoming slaves, until Moses came at God’s command to free them. None of the Israelites were anywhere except Egypt (except for Moses) until Moses came back, 40 years after meeting his father-in-law in Midian. Jethro was a Gentile.

 

[Guojing]

There is no error in my thinking (on this subject at least). Obviously Israel is a people, that is why I said they are the descendants of Israel (Jacob); people, not a place.

And yes, there are many who are physically descended from Jacob who are scattered abroad, but there weren’t any scattered at this time. They all came to Joseph in Egypt with their father, Jacob. And all of them stayed there, becoming slaves, until Moses came at God’s command to free them. None of the Israelites were anywhere except Egypt (except for Moses) until Moses came back, 40 years after meeting his father-in-law in Midian. Jethro was a Gentile.

I already said you don't need to descend from Jacob to be part of Israel (Esther 8:17). Any gentile can become part of Israel if they are willing to be circumcised (for males) and obey the Law of Moses.

Are you objecting to this point of mine?

 

[Doug Brents]

I already said you don't need to descend from Jacob to be part of Israel (Esther 8:17). Any gentile can become part of Israel if they are willing to be circumcised (for males) and obey the Law of Moses.

Are you objecting to this point of mine?

No, you are correct, Gentiles could join Israel, and Jethro could have also….

However, Jethro did not become part of the Nation. He went back to his own country. He may or may not have been circumcised already (we are not told either way), but if not, he also was not circumcised during his stay with Moses at Sinai.

 

[Guojing]

No, you are correct, Gentiles could join Israel, and Jethro could have also….

However, Jethro did not become part of the Nation. He went back to his own country. He may or may not have been circumcised already (we are not told either way), but if not, he also was not circumcised during his stay with Moses at Sinai.

But your conclusion don't follow from your premises.

If you are not sure whether he was circumcised or not already, how do you then conclude with certainty that Jethro did not join Israel?

 

[Doug Brents]

But your conclusion don't follow from your premises.

If you are not sure whether he was circumcised or not already, how do you then conclude with certainty that Jethro did not join Israel?

Because if he had “joined the Nation” then he would have joined the nation, not gone home.

 

[Guojing]

Because if he had “joined the Nation” then he would have joined the nation, not gone home.

But didn't you already agreed that Israel does not represent a geographical location?

What's with the "going around in circles reasoning" you have?

How do you know, with certainty, that "there weren’t any scattered at this time."?

 

[Doug Brents]

But didn't you already agreed that Israel does not represent a geographical location?

What's with the "going around in circles reasoning" you have?

How do you know, with certainty, that "there weren’t any scattered at this time."?

Israel, and most of the civilizations during this time, were based around a clan structure. Part of the strength of a clan structure was that everyone was together in one place. If you joined the clan, you joined with them where they were. That is one reason that Abraham leaving his clan when God called him out, was so significant. That is also why God threatened anyone who did not keep his law with expulsion from the clan. Anyone who was not killed outright at least. So anyone who joined Israel would become part of the clan and live where the clan lived.

 

[Guojing]

Israel, and most of the civilizations during this time, were based around a clan structure. Part of the strength of a clan structure was that everyone was together in one place. If you joined the clan, you joined with them where they were. That is one reason that Abraham leaving his clan when God called him out, was so significant. That is also why God threatened anyone who did not keep his law with expulsion from the clan. Anyone who was not killed outright at least. So anyone who joined Israel would become part of the clan and live where the clan lived.

Is that your assumption?

 

[Doug Brents]

Is that your assumption?

What part?

It is biblical fact that Jethro did not join the nation of Israel, but went back to his own country. The rest is based on historical and biblical evidence of the structure of the clan/family units in the time of Moses.

 

[Guojing]

What part?

It is biblical fact that Jethro did not join the nation of Israel, but went back to his own country. The rest is based on historical and biblical evidence of the structure of the clan/family units in the time of Moses.

This "So anyone who joined Israel would become part of the clan and live where the clan lived."

If there is scripture indicating anything close to that, please state them.

 

[Doug Brents]

This "So anyone who joined Israel would become part of the clan and live where the clan lived."

If there is scripture indicating anything close to that, please state them.

Lev 18:29
Num 15:30
Num 19:20
Matt 18:15-17

These are all counter-examples, and there are many more.
The community represents safety, security, belonging, etc. And to be expelled from it was to be cast out from that safety, security, and fellowship.
Jethro had his own community, and his own responsibility to that community: he was the priest there.
The Church today is the same. We are to expel anyone who is in unrepentant sin so that they will long for the unity they had in the Church and repent so they can return.

 

[Guojing]

Lev 18:29
Num 15:30
Num 19:20
Matt 18:15-17

These are all counter-examples, and there are many more.
The community represents safety, security, belonging, etc. And to be expelled from it was to be cast out from that safety, security, and fellowship.
Jethro had his own community, and his own responsibility to that community: he was the priest there.
The Church today is the same. We are to expel anyone who is in unrepentant sin so that they will long for the unity they had in the Church and repent so they can return.

None of those even hinted to what you were saying. "So anyone who joined Israel...live where the clan lived."

 

[Doug Brents]

None of those even hinted to what you were saying. "So anyone who joined Israel...live where the clan lived."

Obviously you don't know what a counter-example is.

If the nation is scattered under normal circumstances, then being outcast from it has no strength as a punishment. Yet that was the punishment God gave for certain violations of the Law.

 

[Guojing]

Obviously you don't know what a counter-example is.

If the nation is scattered under normal circumstances, then being outcast from it has no strength as a punishment. Yet that was the punishment God gave for certain violations of the Law.

Again, your error is you interpret all those verses about being outcast as geographical.

It is not. When you are cut off from the people, it does not mean cut off from the location of everyone else who were not cut off.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again, your error is you interpret all those verses about being outcast as geographical.

It is not. When you are cut off from the people, it does not mean cut off from the location of everyone else who were not cut off.

And again you read your preconceptions into my statement as well as into Scripture.

Being exiled from the community has to do with association. The exiled person may still be in the same geographic area, but he is forbidden from association with the community. That means that the exiled person is outside of the house, the church, the community, the camp, and so at the mercy of the criminals, raiders, Satan, etc. This is what it means when Paul says he has turned certain people over to Satan to learn and be saved (if they repent)(1 Cor 5:1-5, 1 Tim 1:18-20).