God makes mistake!

[tanzanos]

How is it possible that an omnipotent all wise God can make a silly mistake when he has the capability to know the outcome of his decisions beforehand?
If he made this mistake then what is to say that his other decisions were not mistakes. Any God making a mistake when he knew it was a mistake beforehand; is definitely not a wise and all powerful God.

Proof of his mistake?

SAMUEL 15: God said: "I REGRET that I have made Saul king".

This is a profound statement coming from God.

The thing here is that he KNEW he was going to regret it before he did it; but went along with it anyway. Now that constitutes as very egotistical and irresponsible behavior.
Now I know why God killed and destroyed so much while at the same time he pretends to be benevolent and wise.
Personally I believe that tantrums will get him nowhere!
But hey! God is an imaginary entity and thus there is no worry that he will smite me with his sword wielding hordes!
Hey AV this one's for you!

 

[Cabal]

How is it possible that an omnipotent all wise God can make a silly mistake when he has the capability to know the outcome of his decisions beforehand?
If he made this mistake then what is to say that his other decisions were not mistakes. Any God making a mistake when he knew it was a mistake beforehand; is definitely not a wise and all powerful God.

Proof of his mistake?

SAMUEL 15: God said: "I REGRET that I have made Saul king".

This is a profound statement coming from God.

The thing here is that he KNEW he was going to regret it before he did it; but went along with it anyway. Now that constitutes as very egotistical and irresponsible behavior.
Now I know why God killed and destroyed so much while at the same time he pretends to be benevolent and wise.
Personally I believe that tantrums will get him nowhere!
But hey! God is an imaginary entity and thus there is no worry that he will smite me with his sword wielding hordes!
Hey AV this one's for you!

Not the sort of question I usually field, but hey, I'll give it a shot:

In His defence, God didn't want Israel to be ruled by a monarch, but the people were disobedient and asked for one anyway. Check out 1 Samuel 9 for more info. Instead of being ruled directly by God, they chose to reject his direct rule in place of being ruled by men. God then allowed this to happen, and the ensuing "hilarity."

It's something we see often in the Bible, rather than nannying the Israelites around, forcing them to do what they should be doing, God lets them make mistakes and face the consequences (which is essentially what the first covenant outlines). Another example of this can be seen when Jesus makes his speeches on divorce - God never wanted the Mosaic divorce laws to make divorce so easy for men, but it was because of their "hardened hearts" that He let it pass.

So as for this word, "regret" - what translation are you using? I'd be curious to see the root word in the originals. Also, does regret necessarily need to be personal? Do you need to be the one at fault to feel regret over something?

Also, might wanna move this one to GA.

 

[Washington]

Not the sort of question I usually field, but hey, I'll give it a shot:

In His defence, God didn't want Israel to be ruled by a monarch, but the people were disobedient and asked for one anyway. Check out 1 Samuel 9 for more info. Instead of being ruled directly by God, they chose to reject his direct rule in place of being ruled by men. God then allowed this to happen, and the ensuing "hilarity."

It's something we see often in the Bible, rather than nannying the Israelites around, forcing them to do what they should be doing, God lets them make mistakes and face the consequences (which is essentially what the first covenant outlines). Another example of this can be seen when Jesus makes his speeches on divorce - God never wanted the Mosaic divorce laws to make divorce so easy for men, but it was because of their "hardened hearts" that He let it pass.

So as for this word, "regret" - what translation are you using? I'd be curious to see the root word in the originals. Also, does regret necessarily need to be personal? Do you need to be the one at fault to feel regret over something?

Also, might wanna move this one to GA.

1 Samuel 15:11 (New American Standard Bible)
"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands "

The original word is "nacham," which means "to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, " (Strong's 05162).

And regardless of what god wanted or didn't want, and what the people wanted, god clearly DID regret his decision to make Saul king. In short, god made a mistake.

 

[TheManeki]

How is it possible that an omnipotent all wise God can make a silly mistake when he has the capability to know the outcome of his decisions beforehand?
If he made this mistake then what is to say that his other decisions were not mistakes. Any God making a mistake when he knew it was a mistake beforehand; is definitely not a wise and all powerful God.

Proof of his mistake?

SAMUEL 15: God said: "I REGRET that I have made Saul king".

This is a profound statement coming from God.

The thing here is that he KNEW he was going to regret it before he did it; but went along with it anyway. Now that constitutes as very egotistical and irresponsible behavior.
Now I know why God killed and destroyed so much while at the same time he pretends to be benevolent and wise.
Personally I believe that tantrums will get him nowhere!
But hey! God is an imaginary entity and thus there is no worry that he will smite me with his sword wielding hordes!
Hey AV this one's for you!

Or we have a case of the pro-David historians attempting to justify David's rebellion and usurpation of Saul's throne. History's always written by the victor.

 

[keith99]

How is it possible that an omnipotent all wise God can make a silly mistake when he has the capability to know the outcome of his decisions beforehand?
If he made this mistake then what is to say that his other decisions were not mistakes. Any God making a mistake when he knew it was a mistake beforehand; is definitely not a wise and all powerful God.

Proof of his mistake?

SAMUEL 15: God said: "I REGRET that I have made Saul king".

This is a profound statement coming from God.

The thing here is that he KNEW he was going to regret it before he did it; but went along with it anyway. Now that constitutes as very egotistical and irresponsible behavior.
Now I know why God killed and destroyed so much while at the same time he pretends to be benevolent and wise.
Personally I believe that tantrums will get him nowhere!
But hey! God is an imaginary entity and thus there is no worry that he will smite me with his sword wielding hordes!
Hey AV this one's for you!

Seems convincing. Now here is my question. Where does Scripture say God is all knowing, all powerful or all forgiving? Again not saying anything nasty to you. It is just that it seems to me all of those are conclusions, likely not supported by Scripture. Oh I see plenty that says He is powerful, can forsee and is kind. But not that any of these traits are infinite.

In short I see your post as a good example that this claim is not made by Scripture.

 

[Cabal]

To the OP:

If you don't even believe the Bible, then why are you reading this verse with 100% literalism? Bit of a change from the Bible is all wrong?

That aside, what would you prefer God to have done? He never forces those he has covenanted with to do what he wants. If He did, only then would He be the sort of God you describe.

And again, this really doesn't belong in this forum.

P.S: Verse that supports God's omnipotence, omniscience etc: Luke 1:37

 

[tanzanos]

To the OP:

If you don't even believe the Bible, then why are you reading this verse with 100% literalism? Bit of a change from the Bible is all wrong?

That aside, what would you prefer God to have done? He never forces those he has covenanted with to do what he wants. If He did, only then would He be the sort of God you describe.

And again, this really doesn't belong in this forum.

P.S: Verse that supports God's omnipotence, omniscience etc: Luke 1:37

I agree that this post does not belong here; so how do I go about transferring it to GA?

Also; yes I do not believe in the Bible, but! My point is aimed at creationists who take the Bible literally. I just want to prove my point that the Bible should not be used as proof but should be seen in a philosophical way.

 

[metherion]

Ah... the joys of reconciling stories containing a transcendental deity with those containing an imminent one...

Metherion

 

[sealacamp]

The mistake was Israels not Gods. They wanted a human king instead of leaving God as their king. That was the first mistake in this scenario.

The second one was that Saul had free choice and he chose to follow his own way, just as we all do. Was there any less disappointment with David? Or anyone else for that matter? Such is the need for Jesus to come and rescue us. For as it is written so it is "There are none righteous no not one."

Sealacamp

 

[AMOG]

Hummmm.....

Who says Regret = mistake???? That is a really bad foundation for an argument!

Have you never regretted taking some action that you knew was "for the best?".

I regret a lot of things I have done, but there is no doubt in my mind that those actions were exactly the correct thing to do.

An admission of regret is NOT equal to admission of making an error.

This is a really elementary fallacy.

 

[tanzanos]

Hummmm.....

Who says Regret = mistake???? That is a really bad foundation for an argument!

Have you never regretted taking some action that you knew was "for the best?".

I regret a lot of things I have done, but there is no doubt in my mind that those actions were exactly the correct thing to do.

An admission of regret is NOT equal to admission of making an error.

This is a really elementary fallacy.

You are missing the point here. So God; who KNEW he would regret his decision decided to go ahead anyway? I know masochism is in the domain of humans but God's???
Yes it can be construed as a mistake when one's decision turns out to be regrettable even if it had Good intentions.
Aside from that; the old testament God was vengeful, self centred, and downright arrogant. How can one justify God's commandment to the Israelites to go forth and murder the Amalakites (including suckling babes)?
My point here is that the Bible cannot be the word of God unless one accepts that God is not all wise, benevolent, forgiving, omnipotent.
The bible was authored by many people whose knowledge of the world did not go beyond a flat earth.

 

[Cabal]

You are missing the point here. So God; who KNEW he would regret his decision decided to go ahead anyway? I know masochism is in the domain of humans but God's???
Yes it can be construed as a mistake when one's decision turns out to be regrettable even if it had Good intentions.
Aside from that; the old testament God was a vengeful, self centred, and downright arrogant. How can one justify God's commandment to the Israelites to go forth and murder the Amalakites (including suckling babes)?
My point here is that the Bible cannot be the word of God unless one accepts that God is not all wise, benevolent, forgiving, omnipotent.
The bible was authored by many people whose knowledge of the world did not go beyond a flat earth.

Originally you just wanted to give literalism a shakedown; now you're saying that the Bible can't be the word of God? All over the place much?

First off, let's leave the Amalekites out of this for now (now THAT'S something worth debating), let's stick with the original point of Saul's reign.

Again, what would you have God do? It is incorrect to say that this was about "good intentions" - it's about God not forcing his way on people. If the people HAD listened to God in the first place, they wouldn't end up suffering the negative consequences (which, again, was what they had COVENANTED for back in the exile). Every single human ruler has fouled up royally (no pun intended) in some way or another, (eg. Winston Churchill - the guy had his personal issues, and let's not mention Gallipoli) and God knew that back then, which was why He made the tough decision to let the Israelites have a monarch in their hard-heartedness, even though it was settling for second best.

Now, if they had listened to him and let him rule them directly, then they would have been blessed wondrously due to his infinite benevolence and goodness. And it's worth noting that even when they followed a path that was not good for them, God still blessed the Israelites - the reigns of David and Solomon were among the peak of their history, with the Temple being first constructed and the lineage of David setting the way for the Messiah.

Also, it's incorrect to describe making a tough call as "masochistic." In that case, every loving parent who has ever lived is a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Every doctor and military commander who has ever lived is a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. It's not masochism, it's called integrity.

 

[tanzanos]

Originally you just wanted to give literalism a shakedown; now you're saying that the Bible can't be the word of God? All over the place much?

First off, let's leave the Amalekites out of this for now (now THAT'S something worth debating), let's stick with the original point of Saul's reign.

Again, what would you have God do? It is incorrect to say that this was about "good intentions" - it's about God not forcing his way on people. If the people HAD listened to God in the first place, they wouldn't end up suffering the negative consequences (which, again, was what they had COVENANTED for back in the exile). Every single human ruler has fouled up royally (no pun intended) in some way or another, (eg. Winston Churchill - the guy had his personal issues, and let's not mention Gallipoli) and God knew that back then, which was why He made the tough decision to let the Israelites have a monarch in their hard-heartedness, even though it was settling for second best.

Now, if they had listened to him and let him rule them directly, then they would have been blessed wondrously due to his infinite benevolence and goodness. And it's worth noting that even when they followed a path that was not good for them, God still blessed the Israelites - the reigns of David and Solomon were among the peak of their history, with the Temple being first constructed and the lineage of David setting the way for the Messiah.

Also, it's incorrect to describe making a tough call as "masochistic." In that case, every loving parent who has ever lived is a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Every doctor and military commander who has ever lived is a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. It's not masochism, it's called tough love.

Again you are missing the point. My question was Why did God do something when he KNEW he WOULD REGRET it BEFOREHAND? Anyone who does something knowing that he would live to regret it but goes ahead anyway is to say the least unwise.
Yes Parents do have a hard time with their children; but that is because kids come to us without operating manuals. God on the other hand cannot be so handicapped as we mere mortals are. He knows everything beforehand. He has the power to do as he wishes. Yet ends up regretting doing something. Don't you see the conflict here?
As for his intentions; anyone who purports to knowing the mind of God is either making things up or sees himself as a God. I say this to the ones who try to excuse the unforgiving traits God exhibits in the OT with excuses and explanations not written in the Bible. One could say that such attitudes are akin to bearing false witness.

My aim is to show to the creationists the fallacy of their literal acceptance of the Bible as the only truth.
True the Bible or Quran or Torah or whatever religious book do have their merit as a consoling factor to the believers in times of psychological hardship. Otherwise it makes for interesting reading.

 

[Cabal]

God on the other hand cannot be so handicapped as we mere mortals are. He knows everything beforehand. He has the power to do as he wishes. Yet ends up regretting doing something. Don't you see the conflict here?

Yes, He does have the power to do anything, and what alternatives does he have? Compulsion? That's never been his style - He leaves the choice up to us, and that involves putting His heart on the line. And if you're talking about leadership, the point still stands that every single human leader has royally fouled up during their career. Again, what would you have Him do when He has always left the choice out of His hands?

As for his intentions; anyone who purports to knowing the mind of God is either making things up or sees himself as a God. I say this to the ones who try to excuse the unforgiving traits God exhibits in the OT with excuses and explanations not written in the Bible. One could say that such attitudes are akin to bearing false witness.

Indeed, and that may well apply to the author of 1 Samuel (not sure who that was, myself) but the narration style is interesting - it seems like an omniscient narrator style, so maybe there was some licence taken with the telling of the facts.

 

[tanzanos]

Yes, He does have the power to do anything, and what alternatives does he have?

First you say he has the power to do anything and then you say what alternatives does he have? The most powerful entity in the universe capable of creating the cosmos is overwhelmed by a mere primitive mortal?

Now back to my original question which for some reason you seem to be avoiding. Why did he do something when he knew he would regret it? Lets stick to this question. Don't you see that actions such as the above errode the credibility of an all wise God? Saying that he gave free thought to Saul is irrelevant when you take into consideration that he knew Saul would not abide by his wishes.
An example would be: I have the power to make someone a king. Now before I do that I also have the power to know that the would be king will go against my wishes because I will give him free thought. Now I go ahead and make him king and then I complain that I regret doing so. WOW! Now if that is not irresponsible behavior then what is?

My point is that people use the Bibles message as infalible and vie for recognition in schools with the intent of ridding the education system of evolution and supplanting it with creationism.
Once more I must stress the point that according to the writings in the Bible; God is neither omnipotent nor wise. He does not represent a benevolent kind and forgiving entity. Far from it. Also leaving the amalakites out of the picture is like leaving the slavs out of Nazi concentration camps.

Either the Bible is the word of God in its entirety or it is not.

 

[Cabal]

First you say he has the power to do anything and then you say what alternatives does he have? The most powerful entity in the universe capable of creating the cosmos is overwhelmed by a mere primitive mortal?

The point was, He could do anything, so much that He could just force humans to do what he wanted, but he won't. Note the diference.

Now back to my original question which for some reason you seem to be avoiding. Why did he do something when he knew he would regret it? Lets stick to this question. Don't you see that actions such as the above errode the credibility of an all wise God? Saying that he gave free thought to Saul is irrelevant when you take into consideration that he knew Saul would not abide by his wishes.
An example would be: I have the power to make someone a king. Now before I do that I also have the power to know that the would be king will go against my wishes because I will give him free thought. Now I go ahead and make him king and then I complain that I regret doing so. WOW! Now if that is not irresponsible behavior then what is?

Let's extend this - you have offered your people a system of ruling by direct divine intervention but instead they turn it down and demand a man rule them instead. The man you then appoint, in order to give your people the system you still want for them,has to not put a foot wrong. Ever. Do you know of any human who could do that? Even David, the better replacement ,still manages to muck it up in several ways.

Now, the question you seem to be avoiding - what would you have done? You seem to think you know better than an apparently omnipotent God, so this question should be peanuts.

My point is that people use the Bibles message as infalible and vie for recognition in schools with the intent of ridding the education system of evolution and supplanting it with creationism.

You'll get no argument from me on the evolution front, however I think you need to work a lot harder to prove that the Bible is infallible - this verse doesn't prove that (if you were correct, which you've got to work harder on too), it just proves that certain people who make certain interpretations of the Bible are fallible.

Once more I must stress the point that according to the writings in the Bible; God is neither omnipotent nor wise. He does not represent a benevolent kind and forgiving entity. Far from it. Also leaving the amalakites out of the picture is like leaving the slavs out of Nazi concentration camps.

You were originally asking about God regretting something, then you decided to sneak in the tired old "God's a rotter" argument (via Godwin's Law of all things!). It's a total non sequitur. Horrible though it may be, God encouraging the slaughter of many people does not prove he's not omnipotent or unwise. You have yet to show anything regarding that.

Either the Bible is the word of God in its entirety or it is not.

Again, nothing you've said so far is particularly convincing on the latter.

 

[tanzanos]

God encouraging the slaughter of many people does not prove he's not omnipotent or unwise. You have yet to show anything regarding that.
Again, nothing you've said so far is particularly convincing on the latter.

God creates his right hand man; the archangel Lucifer. Lucifer turns out to be the devil.
God creates man. Man turns to disobeying him.
God makes Saul King. Saul turns out to let him down.
God knew the outcome of his decisions yet went ahead anyway.

Now if he was wise; then why did he blunder so? He REGRETED! does that say anything? A wise God would not do something that he would regret especially when he knew it would make him feel so.

A wise God would put order into his creation not chaos.
What more evidence do you need to prove that the OT God was not wise.

FSM rules

 

[Cabal]

God creates his right hand man; the archangel Lucifer. Lucifer turns out to be the devil.
God creates man. Man turns to disobeying him.
God makes Saul King. Saul turns out to let him down.
God knew the outcome of his decisions yet went ahead anyway.

Now if he was wise; then why did he blunder so? He REGRETED! does that say anything? A wise God would not do something that he would regret especially when he knew it would make him feel so.

A wise God would put order into his creation not chaos.

I will ask again - when you want to leave your creations the option of choice, what alternatives do you have? Also, creating something that makes the choice you want is effectively forcing the choice to be made.

Plus, you're forgetting the fact that God derives great joy from his creations that do decide to try and obey him. I don't pretend to know how he thinks, but perhaps for him the good times make up for the bad times?

 

[tanzanos]

I will ask again - when you want to leave your creations the option of choice, what alternatives do you have? Also, creating something that makes the choice you want is effectively forcing the choice to be made.

Plus, you're forgetting the fact that God derives great joy from his creations that do decide to try and obey him. I don't pretend to know how he thinks, but perhaps for him the good times make up for the bad times?

Whether God gave the option of choice or not is not the point. He knew beforehand that his decision will lead him to regret it; yet he went along anyway. What joy did he get by introducing EVIL (Lucifer) to mankind?

 

[Cabal]

Whether God gave the option of choice or not is not the point. He knew beforehand that his decision will lead him to regret it; yet he went along anyway. What joy did he get by introducing EVIL (Lucifer) to mankind?

*sigh*

Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V

"I will ask again - when you want to leave your creations the option of choice, what alternatives do you have? Also, creating something that makes the choice you want is effectively forcing the choice to be made.

Plus, you're forgetting the fact that God derives great joy from his creations that do decide to try and obey him. I don't pretend to know how he thinks, but perhaps for him the good times make up for the bad times?"

Human choice is the factor at fault here, not God. Now please, stop dodging the question in the first paragraph.

Re: Satan, read the bolded section in the second paragraph.