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God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

tall73

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One of the amazing attributes of God that He claims as His alone is knowing the end from the beginning.


Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose


Yet several times when describing the putting into place the plan of salvation Ellen White writes that Jesus was "risking" eternal loss, and staking His own "eternal existence."


Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 131.2}




Remember that Christ risked all; tempted like as we are, he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul. {GCB December 1, 1895, Art. B, par. 23}



Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life’s peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}


Christ did indeed leave His heavenly home. Christ did indeed take on the likeness of man, and had to be born a baby, and grow in stature with God and man.

Christ was indeed tempted as the Scriptures state. Christ did indeed have to endure terrible pain and terrible treatment, none of which He deserved, and is rightly praised for this.

But was there a RISK of FAILURE in the plan?

Risk of failure is something we face as humans because we do not know the future. It could go either way. This was not at all the case with God and with the plan of salvation.

Christ was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. There was a one hundred percent chance of Jesus dying for us. There was a zero percent chance of Christ failing and losing His own eternal existence.

Ellen White states

He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss.

So here she has the pre-incarnate Christ taking on the notion of risk, as though the plan of salvation might just not work.

Did God know or didn't He?


Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose
"
 
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Pythons

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Let me ask another question in this regard

Even though I said earlier tht it is not for us to decide what God would have or wouldnt have done...

Would God have send His son Jesus Christ on a mission He knew He would fail?

There is no possibility of failure with God, and as I understand it Salvation was a work...
...Planned & executed ONLY by God - therefore the question remains - does God really know what will happen?
...Most excellent O.P.!
 
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JohnMarsten

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There is no possibility of failure with God, and as I understand it Salvation was a work...
...Planned & executed ONLY by God - therefore the question remains - does God really know what will happen?
...Most excellent O.P.!

Sounds right!

I guess He knows ;)
 
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tall73

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If Christ had free choice such as we do, there was risk involved.


Stryder, are you saying God didn't know how He would choose if sent?

Are you saying God doesn't know how you will choose to do things?
 
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Stryder06

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Stryder, are you saying God didn't know how He would choose if sent?

Are you saying God doesn't know how you will choose to do things?

What I said is what I said. Omniscience doesn't take away from choice.

So again, IF Christ had free choice, like we do, then risk was involved.
 
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tall73

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What I said is what I said. Omniscience doesn't take away from choice.

So again, IF Christ had free choice, like we do, then risk was involved.


Stryder, omniscience most certainly does take away risk in THIS case.

God knew before He sent His Son what would happen.

If you knew without fail what stock would go up is there a risk in investing for you? No.

If God knows that His Son would fail, as John referenced above, would He send Him? No.

Now perhaps you can answer the question. Did God know that Jesus would succeed?
 
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tall73

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So again, IF Christ had free choice, like we do, then risk was involved.


Stryder, God knows what you will choose already.

God knew what His Son would choose already.

True or false?
 
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Stryder06

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Stryder, omniscience most certainly does take away risk in THIS case.

God knew before He sent His Son what would happen.

If you knew without fail what stock would go up is there a risk in investing for you? No.

If God knows that His Son would fail, as John referenced above, would He send Him? No.

Now perhaps you can answer the question. Did God know that Jesus would succeed?

You're still missing it. If you have a CHOICE then there is RISK involved. I could know what stock would rise without fail but I have the CHOICE to invest or not.

Stryder, God knows what you will choose already.

God knew what His Son would choose already.

True or false?

Again, knowing it doesn't take away the choice that can be made. God knows if I'll sin or not, does that mean I have no choice but to sin?
 
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Stryder06

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What if God could deny Himself - which the Bible says He can't do...
...Would that not make a mockery of how much importance people place in what the Bible says?

No one is saying that He did. Again, if there's choice, then there's risk. Now if you don't believe Christ had the freedom of choice like you and I, then it doesn't matter.
 
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O

OntheDL

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Tall,

Why are you so bitter with our message that you seek to detract and destroy? Is that the character of Christ or the character of Satan?

The SDA people treated you well. When you were paid with the SDA tithe money and were supposed to upheld their beliefs, you came here publicly to cast doubts to disparage. Even when you came clean with your unbelief eventually, the conference gave you a graceful dismissal.

I was a baptized Baptist before I found out about the sabbath truth. Do you see me go to the Baptist forum and say how wrong are they to worship on Sunday and believe in the immortality of the soul??? I pray for them.

Now onto your argument...

If nothing was left to chance, then why Jesus(God) cried out while on the cross 'my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

If Jesus being God who knew the end from the beginning knows the final outcome then why couldn't He have looked past the darkest hour?

Why did the scriptures say in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplication with strong cry and tears the Father was able to save him from death?

So was Jesus also subject to death had he sinned, had he not offered up prayers and supplication?

Why do you think if God knew the end, then everything would be a cake walk? Even if you know the outcome of game, it doesn't mean it's not hanging by a thread and all to risk for. You think God knows the end and would act or manifest that the way you would, but in fact you have no idea of what God knows and how he would act.

One of the amazing attributes of God that He claims as His alone is knowing the end from the beginning.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose

Yet several times when describing the putting into place the plan of salvation Ellen White writes that Jesus was "risking" eternal loss, and staking His own "eternal existence."


Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 131.2}

Remember that Christ risked all; tempted like as we are, he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul. {GCB December 1, 1895, Art. B, par. 23}

Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life’s peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}


Christ did indeed leave His heavenly home. Christ did indeed take on the likeness of man, and had to be born a baby, and grow in stature with God and man.

Christ was indeed tempted as the Scriptures state. Christ did indeed have to endure terrible pain and terrible treatment, none of which He deserved, and is rightly praised for this.

But was there a RISK of FAILURE in the plan?

Risk of failure is something we face as humans because we do not know the future. It could go either way. This was not at all the case with God and with the plan of salvation.

Christ was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. There was a one hundred percent chance of Jesus dying for us. There was a zero percent chance of Christ failing and losing His own eternal existence.

Ellen White states

He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss.

So here she has the pre-incarnate Christ taking on the notion of risk, as though the plan of salvation might just not work.

Did God know or didn't He?

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose
"
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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If Jesus coming to redeem man was a slam dunk/already determined/no risk whatsoever, then what was the big deal about it? Why should we be in awe of what He did for us... it doesn't sound, by your contention, like it cost Him very much.
 
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Stryder06

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If Jesus coming to redeem man was a slam dunk/already determined/no risk whatsoever, then what was the big deal about it? Why should we be in awe of what He did for us... it doesn't sound, by your contention, like it cost Him very much.

I think you can add questions like "Why was He constantly in prayer with His Father?" "Why did the Devil bother tempting Him?" "Why ask for His cup to pass by Him?" "Why call Him the Second Adam?" "How could He have been tempted in every way like us?"
 
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Pythons

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This would be like saying what was the big point of Jesus "walking on water"...
..."IF" there wasn't the possibility of His sinking to the bottom of the lake and drowning?
...& then saying if there wasn't that possibility of Christ drowning, the spectacle was a mockery & a farce.

I'm seeing the question of the O.P. as valid; "Does God NOT know the end from the beginning"?

It would appear that some things God has opted to let us know the outcome of...
...And transmitted this knowledge in the Sacred Scriptures.
...That God would execute Salvation from Adam's sin appears to be one of those things.

What in the Bible would validate the premise that God does NOT know the end from the beginning?
....After the Bible cleary says He does?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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It's strange, in a way, those that say that everything was put in place and happened to a pre arranged schedule and outcome, are no different than the agnostics. Believing that God is removed from our daily affairs and that He is somehow a 'set it and forget it' is exactly how Satan wants us to feel about the Father and Son.
 
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Pythons

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It's strange, in a way, those that say that everything was put in place and happened to a pre arranged schedule and outcome, are no different than the agnostics. Believing that God is removed from our daily affairs and that He is somehow a 'set it and forget it' is exactly how Satan wants us to feel about the Father and Son.

Galatians 4,4
But when the fulness of the time WAS come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons


G4138


The question asked by Tall73 remains - Does God know the end from the beginning or NOT?
 
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