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God is the origin of the Universe.

hordeprime

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This is an excerpt from an essay by William Lane Craig entitled Why I Believe God Exists which can be found here:
http://www.shakinandshinin.org/WhyIBelieveGodExists.html

I'm interested in reading what others may think of this. All comments are welcome. I hope its not too long. Thanks! :)

I. God Makes Sense of the Origin of the Universe

Have you ever asked yourself where the universe came from? Why everything exists instead of nothing? Typically, atheists have said that the universe is just eternal, and that’s all. But surely this is unreasonable. If the universe never had a beginning, that means the number of past events in the history of the universe is infinite. But mathematicians recognize that the idea of an infinite number of things leads to self-contradictions. . . . This shows that infinity is just an idea in one’s mind, not something that exists in reality. David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest mathematician of this century, states, “The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought. The role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea.” Therefore, since past events are not just ideas but are real, the number of past events must be finite. Therefore, the series of past events can’t go back forever; rather, the universe at some point must have begun to exist.

This conclusion has been confirmed by remarkable discoveries in astronomy and astrophysics. The astrophysical evidence indicates that the universe began to exist in a great explosion called the big bang around fifteen billion years ago. . . . Thus, what the big bang model requires is that the universe began to exist and was created out of nothing.

We can summarize the argument thus far as follows:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Given the truth of the first two premises, the third necessarily follows.

From the very nature of the case, as the cause of space and time, this supernatural cause must be an uncaused, changeless, timeless, and immaterial being that created the universe. The being must be uncaused because we’ve seen that there cannot be an infinite regress of causes. It must be timeless and therefore changeless because it created time. Because it also created space, it must transcend space as well and therefore be immaterial, not physical.

Moreover, I would argue, it must also be personal, for how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect such as the universe? . . . The only way for the cause to be timeless and the effect to begin in time is for the cause to be a personal agent who freely chooses to create an effect in time without any prior determining conditions.

What objections might be raised against this argument? Premise 1: The fact that whatever begins to exist has a cause seems obviously true—at least more so than its denial. Yet a number of atheists, in order to avoid the argument’s conclusion, deny the first premise. Some say that subatomic physics furnishes an exception to premise 1, since on the subatomic level events are said to be uncaused. . . . [However,] even according to the traditional, indeterministic interpretation, particles do not come into being out of nothing. They arise as spontaneous fluctuations of the energy contained in the subatomic vacuum; they do not come from nothing.

Other atheists have said that premise 1 is true for things in the universe, but it is not true of the universe itself. But this objection misconstrues the nature of the premise. Premise 1 does not state merely a physical law such as the law of gravity or the laws of thermodynamics, which are valid for things within the universe. Premise 1 is not a physical principle. Rather, premise 1 is a metaphysical principle, a principle about the very nature of reality: Being cannot come from nonbeing; something cannot come into existence uncaused from nothing. [T]he potentiality of the universe lay in the power of God to create it.

So what about premise 2: The universe began to exist? The typical objection raised against the philosophical argument for the universe’s beginning is that modern mathematical set theory proves that an actual infinite number of things can exist. For example, there is an infinite number of members in the set {0, 1, 2, 3, . . . } . Therefore, there’s no problem with an infinite number of past events.

But this objection does not work. First, not all mathematicians agree that actual infinities exist even in the mathematical realm. They regard series such as 0, 1, 2, 3, . . . as merely potentially infinite; that is to say, such series approach infinity as a limit, but they never actually get there. Second, existence in the mathematical realm does not imply existence in the real world. To say that infinite sets exist is merely to postulate a realm of discourse, governed by certain axioms and rules that are simply presupposed, in which one can talk about such collections. . . . Third, the real existence of an infinite number of things would violate the rules of infinite set theory.

As we saw, trying to subtract infinite quantities leads to self-contradictions; therefore, infinite set theory just prohibits such operations to preserve consistency. In the real world, however, there’s nothing to keep us from breaking this arbitrary rule. If I had an infinite number of marbles, I could subtract or divide them as I please.

Sometimes it’s said that we can find counter examples to the claim that an infinite number of things cannot exist, so this claim must be false. For instance, isn’t every finite distance capable of being divided into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, . . . on to infinity? Doesn’t that prove that in any finite distance there is an infinite number of parts? The fallacy of this objection is that it once again confuses a potential infinite with an actual infinite. You can continue to divide any distance for as long as you want, but such a series is merely potentially infinite; infinity serves as a limit you endlessly approach but never reach.

As for the scientific confirmation of premise 2, it has been the overwhelming verdict of the scientific community that no theory is more probable than the big bang theory. The devil is in the details, and once you get down to specifics, you find that there is no mathematically consistent model that has been so successful in its predictions or as corroborated by the evidence as the traditional big bang theory. . . . In sum, according to Hawking, “Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang.” 

In light of the evidence, premises 1 and 2 seem more plausible than their denials. Hence, it is plausible that a transcendent Creator of the universe exists. People sometimes resist this conclusion because they claim that it is a pseudo-explanation of the origin of the universe. “Just because we can’t explain it doesn’t mean God did it,” they protest. But such a response misconstrues the argument. In the first place, this argument is a deductive argument. Therefore, if the premises are true and the logic is valid, the conclusion follows, period. [Secondly, to say that God created the universe is a perfectly valid explanation, although a personal, not scientific, one.] It explains some effect in terms of an agent and his intentions. We employ such explanations all the time.

For example, if you were to come into the kitchen and find the kettle boiling and ask me, “Why is the kettle boiling?” I might give you an explanation in terms of the kinetic energy communicated to the water by the flame by means of the heat-conducting metal used in the manufacture of the kettle, which causes the molecules of the water in the kettle to vibrate faster and faster until they are thrown off in the form of steam. Or I might say, “I put it on to make a cup of tea!” Both are equally legitimate explanations, and in many contexts, only a personal explanation will do. In the case of cosmic origins, as Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne points out, there cannot be a scientific explanation of a first state of the universe, since there is nothing before it. Therefore, if a personal explanation does not exist, then there is simply no explanation at all—which is metaphysically absurd, since on that account the universe just popped into being uncaused out of nothing.

Other atheists have charged that the argument’s conclusion is incoherent, since a cause must come before its effect, and there is no moment before the big bang. This objection, however, is easy to answer. Many causes and effects are simultaneous. Thus, the moment of God’s causing the big bang is the moment of the occurrence of the big bang. We can then say that God existed alone without the universe before the big bang, not in physical time but in an undifferentiated metaphysical time, or that he is strictly timeless and entered into time at the moment of creation. No incoherence has been shown in either of these alternatives.

But people will say, “But if the universe must have a cause, then what is God’s cause?” This question reveals an inattentiveness to the formulation of the argument. The first premise does not state, whatever exists has a cause, but rather, whatever begins to exist has a cause. The difference is important. The insight that lies at the root of premise 1 is that being cannot come from nonbeing, something cannot come from nothing. God, since he never began to exist, would not require a cause, for he never came into being. This is not a special pleading for God, since this is exactly what the atheist has always claimed about the universe: that it is eternal and uncaused. The problem is that the atheist’s claim is now rendered untenable in light of the beginning of the universe.

Finally, someone might wonder, “But isn’t God supposed to be infinite? Your argument shows that the infinite cannot exist. So how can God exist?” In fact, the argument was that an infinite number of things cannot exist. God is not a collection of an infinite number of things. As a nonphysical being, he doesn’t even have parts. When theologians speak of God’s infinity, they are thus using the term in a qualitative not a quantitative sense. They mean that God is absolutely holy, uncreated, self-existent, all-powerful, all-present, and so forth. It’s not a mathematical concept. Thus, there’s no contradiction.

In sum, we have a powerful reason based on the origin of the universe to believe that an uncaused, changeless, timeless, immaterial, personal Creator of the universe exists.
 

Polycarp1

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My sole comment at this time is that it looks like an interesting argument but is very difficult to read in that small font. Would you be willing to edit it and enlarge the font size? (Easy way to do that: Click on "edit" button, highlight all the quoted text, and change the number next to the font name to a higher number -- 2 or 3 sounds good.)
 
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toff

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hordeprime said:
This is an excerpt from an essay by William Lane Craig entitled Why I Believe God Exists which can be found here:
http://www.shakinandshinin.org/WhyIBelieveGodExists.html

I'm interested in reading what others may think of this. All comments are welcome. I hope its not too long. Thanks!
Same old re-hash of same old arguments. Sorry, but there's nothing remotely new here, and nothing that hasn't been done to death. Of course, (some) theists find this argument convincing; atheists do not (otherwise they wouldn't be atheists). If he can come up with an argument that even atheists find convincing (and thereby become theists), he'll have something.
 
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Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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As a Christian I do believe in God but I have to say I find all these 'logical' proofs of the existence or non-existence of God a load of tripe.

You can usually spot the leap in logic in the first sentence or two. The OP here being no exception.

This to me is the leap above:

From the very nature of the case, as the cause of space and time, this supernatural cause must be an uncaused, changeless, timeless, and immaterial being that created the universe. The being must be uncaused because we’ve seen that there cannot be an infinite regress of causes. It must be timeless and therefore changeless because it created time. Because it also created space, it must transcend space as well and therefore be immaterial, not physical.

Moreover, I would argue, it must also be personal, for how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect such as the universe? . . . The only way for the cause to be timeless and the effect to begin in time is for the cause to be a personal agent who freely chooses to create an effect in time without any prior determining conditions.

I could as a physicist even quibble with the cause argument preceding even the quote above.
 
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LorentzHA

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Horderprime said:
God is the origin of the Universe.
Maybe, maybe not....

Here are the 5 competing theories as of now, in no order of importance.


1. Logical and mathematical necessity.

2. Deity. A God or Gods created the universe.

3. Quantum fluctuation. Events at the quantum level are uncaused. The universe is a huge quantum event.

4. No Boundary. This is a proposal by Stephen Hawking -a universe that doesn't have a beginning and therefore was never "created". It just IS.

5. Ekpyrotic. This is a variation of #3. The universe is the result of a random collision between two quantum membranes in 11 dimensions

All of these are euqally as plausible and none have been falsified, as yet.
 
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PhantomLlama

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I'll just have a look at a bit of it, it's too big for me to take on all of.

hordeprime said:
This is an excerpt from an essay by William Lane Craig entitled Why I Believe God Exists which can be found here:
http://www.shakinandshinin.org/WhyIBelieveGodExists.html

I'm interested in reading what others may think of this. All comments are welcome. I hope its not too long. Thanks! :)

I. God Makes Sense of the Origin of the Universe

Have you ever asked yourself where the universe came from? Why everything exists instead of nothing? Typically, atheists have said that the universe is just eternal, and that’s all.

Not necessarily. Many think time began with the Big Bang.

But surely this is unreasonable. If the universe never had a beginning, that means the number of past events in the history of the universe is infinite. But mathematicians recognize that the idea of an infinite number of things leads to self-contradictions. . . . This shows that infinity is just an idea in one’s mind, not something that exists in reality. David Hilbert, perhaps the greatest mathematician of this century, states, “The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought. The role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea.”
Fine, the infinite cannot exist. Kinda puts paid to that whole 'God' idea you had going.

Therefore, since past events are not just ideas but are real, the number of past events must be finite. Therefore, the series of past events can’t go back forever; rather, the universe at some point must have begun to exist.
Well, yeah. This has been known and accepted by more or less everyone for decades.

This conclusion has been confirmed by remarkable discoveries in astronomy and astrophysics. The astrophysical evidence indicates that the universe began to exist in a great explosion called the big bang around fifteen billion years ago. . . . Thus, what the big bang model requires is that the universe began to exist and was created out of nothing.
Not necessarily nothing, though the article scores bonus points for not being creationist.

We can summarize the argument thus far as follows:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
Wrong. Quantum randomness is a real life example of uncaused events.

The universe began to exist.
Yes.

Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Given the truth of the first two premises, the third necessarily follows.
As premise #1 is false, no.

From the very nature of the case, as the cause of space and time, this supernatural cause must be an uncaused, changeless, timeless, and immaterial being that created the universe.
If it is timeless and changeless it cannot act. As a cause must occur prior to the effect, the beginning of time cannot have a cause.

The being must be uncaused because we’ve seen that there cannot be an infinite regress of causes.
So you accept the possibility of uncaused things. Rendering your entire argument pointless.

It must be timeless and therefore changeless because it created time. Because it also created space, it must transcend space as well and therefore be immaterial, not physical.
If it acts, it cannot be timeless or changeless.

Moreover, I would argue, it must also be personal, for how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect such as the universe? . . . The only way for the cause to be timeless and the effect to begin in time is for the cause to be a personal agent who freely chooses to create an effect in time without any prior determining conditions.
Non sequitur.

What objections might be raised against this argument? Premise 1: The fact that whatever begins to exist has a cause seems obviously true—at least more so than its denial. Yet a number of atheists, in order to avoid the argument’s conclusion, deny the first premise. Some say that subatomic physics furnishes an exception to premise 1, since on the subatomic level events are said to be uncaused. . . . [However,] even according to the traditional, indeterministic interpretation, particles do not come into being out of nothing. They arise as spontaneous fluctuations of the energy contained in the subatomic vacuum; they do not come from nothing.
Goalpost shifting. The idea is that they are uncaused, not that they come from nothing.

Other atheists have said that premise 1 is true for things in the universe, but it is not true of the universe itself. But this objection misconstrues the nature of the premise. Premise 1 does not state merely a physical law such as the law of gravity or the laws of thermodynamics, which are valid for things within the universe. Premise 1 is not a physical principle. Rather, premise 1 is a metaphysical principle, a principle about the very nature of reality: Being cannot come from nonbeing; something cannot come into existence uncaused from nothing.

You have not demonstrated why. Did you know the net energy content of the universe is believed to be zero? The universe is still net nothing.

That's all I have time for for now.
 
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michabo

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hordeprime said:
Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

Can you give me a few examples of things which begin to exist so that we can verify this statement?

How do you account for Virtual Particles which begin to exist and yet do not have a cause? Sort of shoots down your whole argument.

From the very nature of the case, as the cause of space and time, this supernatural cause must be an uncaused, changeless, timeless, and immaterial being that created the universe.
What is "supernatural" and why should we believe it exists? How can it be changeless if it changed enough to create the universe? How can it be timeless if it created time? How can it be immaterial if it created material? How can it be uncaused if it is clearly complex, and so must have been formed from simpler elements?

They arise as spontaneous fluctuations of the energy contained in the subatomic vacuum; they do not come from nothing.
So to test the validity of your statements, we must perform experiments outside of our universe? Inconvenient, or perhaps a little too convenient. At any rate, your first premise becomes empty and unfalsifiable. Only to be expected - once it has been falsified, the only way to revise it is to make it meaningless.

Ultimately, you have a nice bit of reasoning which is detached from reality and observation. You might as well say the Universe was caused by the Great Green Arkleseisure, but unfortunately we would have to be outside of space and time to check.

Are you familliar with Descartes? He did a number of such proofs, most famously demonstrating that the sum of the interior angles of a triangle must equal 180 degrees. This is only true under the conditions he assumed must exist. Similarly, your "proof" (excepting the fact you deny observed events) is largely circular, and as it uses no observations, just highlights the assumptions you have already made. In that sense, it nicely reveals your own biases, but doesn't help us determine what is going on in reality.
 
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hordeprime

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michabo said:
Ultimately, you have a nice bit of reasoning which is detached from reality and observation. You might as well say the Universe was caused by the Great Green Arkleseisure, but unfortunately we would have to be outside of space and time to check.

Just for clarification, this argument is not mine, as I stated in the OP.

I do not agree with it, nor is it my intention to defend it. So I don't have any counter-counter-points to offer anyone here. If someone else wants to defend it that's fine, but I am just looking for other people's commentary. Muchas gracias.
:bow:
 
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michabo

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Not many of the people who champion syllogism-based proofs of God hang about here very long. The arguments tend to collapse very quickly.

Much better to put forth your own ideas so that you understand them and know how to defend them. Makes for a more interesting and useful dialog on both sides.
 
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Prometheus_ash

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String theory is another theory as to how the universe was caused, tho it raises some questions as to exactly how the other 10 universes came into exiostence....

No, I am being serious, String theory is a serious scientific theory, though as of yet there is no way to prove it, kind of like God, tho at least with string theory we have predictions about how to disprove or prove it in the future.

The article you are siting is talking mostly about the "First cause", whihc is, as mentioned before, not really that good of an argument. It is not self validitating, meaning that if you can think of only one situation in which case you keep the premis of the argument the same, but have a different conclusion, means that it is invalid. This does not mean it is untrue, just that as an argument it is completely worthless.

BEsides, if everythign has a cause, what is the cause of God? and then what is the cause of that? and on and on and on... If you avoid the problem and say that god is eternal, well, then why can't the universe be eternal?

It woudl be better if you could come up with an arguement that has not been aorund for humdreds of years, because it is too easy to shoot down. Or, state it in your own words, so that you will learn how to defend your own statements through logic, instead of relying on others to prove your point (excpet as references of course...).

Just some friendly adivce, hope it helps.
 
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hordeprime

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Prometheus_ash said:
The article you are siting is talking mostly about the "First cause", whihc is, as mentioned before, not really that good of an argument. It is not self validitating, meaning that if you can think of only one situation in which case you keep the premis of the argument the same, but have a different conclusion, means that it is invalid. This does not mean it is untrue, just that as an argument it is completely worthless.

BEsides, if everythign has a cause, what is the cause of God? and then what is the cause of that? and on and on and on... If you avoid the problem and say that god is eternal, well, then why can't the universe be eternal?

It woudl be better if you could come up with an arguement that has not been aorund for humdreds of years, because it is too easy to shoot down. Or, state it in your own words, so that you will learn how to defend your own statements through logic, instead of relying on others to prove your point (excpet as references of course...).

Thanks for keeping the ball rolling. As I stated before, this isn't my argument, and I'm not actually defending it, I am experimenting with it. My intention is to gain insight from other people's reactions to it, rather than rest on my own opinions.

That having been said, the reason this excerpt struck me is because it slips by several of the conventional refutations used to debunk the 1st Cause argument. Since it is such a large text to digest, I would like to point out some things I find interesting about it.

Take for instance the wording of that premise: "Whatever begins to exist has a cause." The author follows up with:

William Lane Craig said:
But people will say, “But if the universe must have a cause, then what is God’s cause?” This question reveals an inattentiveness to the formulation of the argument. The first premise does not state, whatever exists has a cause, but rather, whatever begins to exist has a cause. The difference is important. The insight that lies at the root of premise 1 is that being cannot come from nonbeing, something cannot come from nothing. God, since he never began to exist, would not require a cause, for he never came into being. This is not a special pleading for God, since this is exactly what the atheist has always claimed about the universe: that it is eternal and uncaused. The problem is that the atheist’s claim is now rendered untenable in light of the beginning of the universe.

Here, he has cleverly established a logic by which God does not have to be proven to have a cause in the same way as the universe.

First, he makes his case that Big Bang Theory proves the universe had a beginning, and therefore a cause. Then, he points out that because God has no beginning then no cause is needed for Him.

So it looks to me like he's saying this:

1. Cause precedes beginning
2. The universe had a beginning
3. Therefore the universe had a cause

And following it up with:

1. Cause precedes beginning
2. God has no beginning
3. Therefore God requires no cause

Now, as for the question: "Why can't the universe be infinite?" He has built in this paragraph:

William Lane Craig said:
As for the scientific confirmation of premise 2, it has been the overwhelming verdict of the scientific community that no theory is more probable than the big bang theory. The devil is in the details, and once you get down to specifics, you find that there is no mathematically consistent model that has been so successful in its predictions or as corroborated by the evidence as the traditional big bang theory. . . . In sum, according to Hawking, “Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang.”

Here, using Hawking's own words, he is proclaiming that the universe has already been proven finite (which may or may not be misquotation). Thus reinforcing his premise that if cause precedes beginning, and time and the universe has a beginning, the universe has a cause.

Do you think this arguments successfully withstands the usual rebuttals to the 1st Cause arguments?

Has the author proven:
1. Beginning necessitates cause
2. The universe needs a cause, but God doesn't.
3. The universe is proven to have a beginning, and therefore a cause.

Thanks for all the opinions. :idea:
 
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michabo

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hordeprime said:
Here, using Hawking's own words, he is proclaiming that the universe has already been proven finite (which may or may not be misquotation). Thus reinforcing his premise that if cause precedes beginning, and time and the universe has a beginning, the universe has a cause.
I don't recall the quote, but here's another one from Hawking:

"So our perception of the nature of time changed from being independent of the universe to being shaped by it. It then became conceivable that time might simply not be defined before a certain point; as one goes back in time, one might come to an insurmountable barrier, a singularity, beyond which one could not go. If that were the case, it wouldn't make sense to ask who, or what, caused or created the big bang. To talk about causation or creation implicitly assumes there was a time before the big bang singularity. We have known for twenty-five years that Einstein's general theory of relativity predicts that time must have had a beginning in a singularity fifteen billion years ago." ("Black Holes and Baby Universes and Other Essays" by Stephen Hawking, p46)

Do you think this arguments successfully withstands the usual rebuttals to the 1st Cause arguments?

Has the author proven:
1. Beginning necessitates cause
2. The universe needs a cause, but God doesn't.
3. The universe is proven to have a beginning, and therefore a cause.
Point (1) is not true. The only beginnings we see in the universe today are virtual particles, and they don't have a cause.

Point (2) is also not true. As the quote above demonstrates, it doesn't make much sense to discuss cause before time. But if you wish, another metaphysical point is that complex objects or entities must be composed of simpler objects. As God is capable of acting independantly, He must be complex, therefore must be composed of simpler, pre-existing components. So it makes no sense for God to be eternal or uncaused. One common straw man used is to claim that the Big Bang is comparable to a horse appearing in our living room, fully formed. Well, for God to just "be", that's exactly what this proof asks us to believe (except it would have to be a superpowerful horse that can make universes with a stamp of its hoof, blammo!).

Point (3) (the universe begining) is debatable. There are theories which just have time and space beginning but the other dimensions continuing (more of an hypothesis really, as it hasn't made any predictions yet). But as it is a conclusion reached from two invalid or unsubstantiated points, it may or may not be true, but we certainly can't conclude it from the evidence presented.

Consider:
(1) All floating cars must be red.
(2) My car floats.
therefore (3) my car is red.

We can invalidate (2) and (3) because cars, even mine, don't float, however my car is still red. So the universe may have a cause, just no one has given us a reason why we should expect it to have one, and no one has been able to determine what that cause might be.

There are some theories (genuine theories this time) like M-Theory about the cause of the universe as we observe it, but we haven't been able to test many of its predictions. Okay, I read that M-Theory successfully predicted gravity which is quite clever but apparently isn't enough to convince many people.
 
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hordeprime said:
Has the author proven:
1. Beginning necessitates cause
2. The universe needs a cause, but God doesn't.
3. The universe is proven to have a beginning, and therefore a cause.
My first, though perhaps most minor problem is with point 2. God has simply been defined as a priori, as something that does not need a cause. This axiom is really debatable. I could also say that the Metaverse does not need a cause, or Fnarkle does not need a cause, and both of these things are capable of spawning universes, and neither are intelligent. Even assuming the universe needs a cause, which I will go onto shortly, the necesity of the universe to have a cause does not prove either the metaverse nor Fnarkle, or even for that matter God.

There are numerous problems with this assumption of the beginning, for example, how do we define beginning? For a creature living within the two dimensional plane of a sphere, does his universe have a beginning? lets say our little creature can only pass along lines of flux from the north pole to the sourth pole, so north is like earlier in time. well if he is right at the north pole, is there anywhere he can point other than south? no, hence the concept to him of more north is meaningless, and so it is with time. At the very origin of the universe, all vectors point away only, there are no vectors pointing previous. Next we have to ask, is the universe really proven to have a beginning? Relativity certainly predicts it, but let us look for a moment at the instant that relativity predicts. Well first of all it is at T=0 , and second of all, the distances all also equal zero, because all points are in the same place, but wait, we have a problem now, because we are in the regieme of quantum mechanics, and we know for a fact that these two do not like one another. In essence both GR and QM break down in the first few moments of the universe, so we cannot use either of these theories to say what actually happens then. Hence although GR might predict something, it is wrong, because GR is being used out of it's remit. Although brilliant, and startling, both GR and QM are basically wrong, although they are good approximations to what the Grand Unified Theory and eventual Theory of Everything actually are. We also have to look at this within the remit of cause and effect. Are cause and effect nescessary, or are they simply emergent properties of the universe. While something within a universe (may) need to be caused, does the universe itself? As above, our model is not yet complete enough to even discuss this, so any assumptions that we make that say the universe has to be caused are void of any substance. Normal everyday experience has already been shown to be invalid when looking at the extremes of physics, such as in high gravities, velocities, and extremely small sizes, masses, distances and so on.

In essence, this whole "first cause" argument is stupid, because we just don't know enough about the universe to have a proper discussion about it. It would be like Newton chatting to his friends about what it would be like to accelerate to infinite velocity. Nice, but ultimately pointless because they didn't have the data or theory to describe what happens at high velocities.
 
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LorentzHA

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horderprime said:
So it looks to me like he's saying this:

1. Cause precedes beginning
2. The universe had a beginning
3. Therefore the universe had a cause
:) Yes, it does look like that is what he is saying although it can be pointed out that there was no "before" since time and space where created at that moment.
 
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hordeprime

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LorentzHA said:
:) Yes, it does look like that is what he is saying although it can be pointed out that there was no "before" since time and space where created at that moment.

Interestingly enough, he has also built in this response to that objection:

William Lane Craig said:
Other atheists have charged that the argument’s conclusion is incoherent, since a cause must come before its effect, and there is no moment before the big bang. This objection, however, is easy to answer. Many causes and effects are simultaneous. Thus, the moment of God’s causing the big bang is the moment of the occurrence of the big bang. We can then say that God existed alone without the universe before the big bang, not in physical time but in an undifferentiated metaphysical time, or that he is strictly timeless and entered into time at the moment of creation. No incoherence has been shown in either of these alternatives.

How far does this fly iyo? Obviously the guy is not a cosmologist. But here he is defending the adage that if we say there is no 'before' then it necessitates an extra-temporal cause.

This is of course, unprovable. But as some people have pointed out, even if we have observed quantum particles coming in or out of existence we have only seen them do so within our space-time. If space-time started at some point, can we really postulate that the Big Bang works like the quantum particles we've seen? Maybe those quantum particles are dependent upon the time that already exists around their occurrance.

I realize that I'm defending the argument, but I've been doing so only for sick amusement. At this point I think the horse is dead though.

LorentzHA said:
1. Logical and mathematical necessity.

2. Deity. A God or Gods created the universe.

3. Quantum fluctuation. Events at the quantum level are uncaused. The universe is a huge quantum event.

4. No Boundary. This is a proposal by Stephen Hawking -a universe that doesn't have a beginning and therefore was never "created". It just IS.

5. Ekpyrotic. This is a variation of #3. The universe is the result of a random collision between two quantum membranes in 11 dimensions

LorentzHA, this is a very interesting summation. Can you recommend some reading material on the subjects? Anyone else have some material on quantum fluctuation theory that I could read? Thanks to all.
 
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