God Is No Hypocrite

John Hyperspace

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In the Bible, Jesus tells us to love our enemies and to bless them, and tells us to forgive those that sin against us. If this is what is good to do, can God ignore these things and not be acting in a hypocritical manner?

If God does not love His enemies, and does not bless them, nor forgive them: how is it that we must do these things? If I said "forgive the sins of your enemies" and then turned to one of my enemies and said "I do not forgive you your sins against me" then everyone would rightly say "This man is a hypocrite!"

We see Jesus had a special disdain for hypocrisy, and used the word often "Hypocrites!" Can God act counter to His own commands? If God does not love His enemies and forgive them their sins against Him; why does He command us to do this? And, why is this not hypocrisy?
 
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Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

God loved us so much that he sent His Son to die for us while we were still enemies. To use an example, if someone owed you money, but they were unable to pay their debt, so you decided to forgive it, then it wouldn't be a simple as just wiping the books clean because you would still out the money that you loaned them Essentially, you would need to pay their debt for them in their place. The wages of sin is death, so in order for God to forgive us, God would need to pay that penalty in our place, hence why it was necessary to send His Son to die on the cross in our place for the penalty for the sins of the world.
 
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In the Bible, Jesus tells us to love our enemies and to bless them, and tells us to forgive those that sin against us. If this is what is good to do, can God ignore these things and not be acting in a hypocritical manner?

If God does not love His enemies, and does not bless them, nor forgive them: how is it that we must do these things? If I said "forgive the sins of your enemies" and then turned to one of my enemies and said "I do not forgive you your sins against me" then everyone would rightly say "This man is a hypocrite!"

We see Jesus had a special disdain for hypocrisy, and used the word often "Hypocrites!" Can God act counter to His own commands? If God does not love His enemies and forgive them their sins against Him; why does He command us to do this? And, why is this not hypocrisy?

it would be hypocritical but humans who have an authoritarian mindset believe that certain others have special privileges over others. God always does the right thing because he is justice and is not warped by sin like we humans tend to be. we are to be reformed into the likeness of his image otherwise we will weep and gnash our teeth outside the new Jerusalem.

here is what Jesus defines a hypocrite to be. certainly he never told anyone anything that he did not do and expect of himself. but wisdom has a lot to say and can not be known without her counterpart who is love.

Matt 7:1-8 (YLT)
`Judge not, that ye may not be judged, for in what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged, and in what measure ye measure, it shall be measured to you. `And why dost thou behold the mote that is in thy brother's eye, and the beam that is in thine own eye dost not consider? or, how wilt thou say to thy brother, Suffer I may cast out the mote from thine eye, and lo, the beam is in thine own eye? Hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. `Ye may not give that which is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, that they may not trample them among their feet, and having turned--may rend you. `Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you; for every one who is asking doth receive, and he who is seeking doth find, and to him who is knocking it shall be opened.
 
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Daryl Gleason

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An interesting question!

After praying about this a bit, it occurs to me that all forgiveness must be for sin in one form or another, because if there has been no sin, then there is nothing to forgive.

Forgiveness for sins can only come through Jesus Christ: 2 Corinthians 2:10-11. So, if we are to legitimately forgive anyone for anything, it must be done through Jesus.

Note also what Jesus said immediately after giving the holy spirit to the apostles: John 20:22-23, showing that they, too, had the authority to forgive sins on earth just as Jesus did, in Matthew 9:6, for example. There is a time for forgiving sins and a time for retaining sins (Acts 13:10-11 is one example), just as there is a time for every purpose under heaven (Ecclesiastes 3:1).


With that said, who are the enemies of God? Satan, the fallen angels, and the demons (ignoring humans, as they are covered by the foregoing). They, too, could be forgiven if they acknowledged Jesus. However, they will not do so (1 John 4:2-4 and 1 Corinthians 12:3). This is because they maintain their power through lies (John 8:44), the greatest of which is the denial of the fact that Jesus is Lord. Thus, there can be neither forgiveness nor redemption for them.

In Christ,
Daryl
 
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In the Bible, Jesus tells us to love our enemies and to bless them, and tells us to forgive those that sin against us. If this is what is good to do, can God ignore these things and not be acting in a hypocritical manner?
...

Maybe the problem is really in that some enemies don’t want to receive that forgiveness? After all, forgiveness is not useful, if one continues to fight against God and continues to do evil and cause suffering for all others.
 
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John Hyperspace

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So do you think no one is going to be cast into the lake of fire?

The Bible says people will be cast into the lake of fire; but it doesn't really clearly spell out what that completely means, or even if it's literal or symbolism, and such. But if you were to ask me, "Will God forgive everyone, even His enemies?" I would have to reply, "If He doesn't, then that would be hypocrisy: thus I must conclude that, yes, He does and will forgive all." But if a person says "God will not forgive all" then I would ask, "How are you not then teaching that God is a hypocrite? Since He commands us to freely forgive all, without qualification?"

Such as, if God says "Do not judge according to appearence" and then a man says to me "God will judge men with long hair according to their hair length" then I would have to reply "This is then hypocrisy, and either God is a hypocrite - or, your interpretation and subsequent teaching is false." Then I would say "God is not a hypocrite; therefore your interpretation is false."

And so, if a man says to me "I interpret the Bible in a way that says that God does not forgive all" then I am semingly forced by reason to reply "This is a false understanding" because, while the person may say "I have scriptural reasons to believe so" their interpretation is also indirectly stating "God is a hypocrite" even though they aren't coming right out and saying it.

So, even if they point at several passages and say "See the passages that lead to my conclusion?" I would reply "I do see the passages, and understand how you arrive at your interpretive conclusion; but I also acknowledge that your interpretive conclusion also makes God a hypocrite: I therefore reject your interpretive conclusion since it leads to an unreasonable conclusion concerning the character of God"
 
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The Bible says people will be cast into the lake of fire; but it doesn't really clearly spell out what that completely means, or even if it's literal or symbolism, and such.

Sure but being cast into a lake of fire is clearly punishment and it says they are not in the book of life so clearly there is no forgiveness there. Another verse speaks of a narrow gate to life and few that find it while a wide gate to destruction is for the rest. Again, clearly one group does not receive life or forgiveness.


Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

God would be a hypocrite or a liar if these things weren't true.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Sure but being cast into a lake of fire is clearly punishment and it says they are not in the book of life so clearly there is no forgiveness there. Another verse speaks of a narrow gate to life and few that find it while a wide gate to destruction is for the rest. Again, clearly one group does not receive life or forgiveness.

I suppose my question then is, how is God - by your interpretation and understanding of the scripture - not clearly a hypocrite? He's telling His followers to freely forgive all, but He isn't "practicing what He preaches"; is this not the very definition of a hypocrite?

God would be a hypocrite or a liar if these things weren't true.

Or, it could be you're misunderstanding what God is saying. I don't think it's fair to God to say "If God doesn't mean what I think He means, then He is a liar." But, I believe I can rightly say "One who does not follow his own teachings is a hypocrite." Maybe God doesn't want us to forgive freely, and I'm misunderstanding and should not forgive freely?
 
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John Hyperspace

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Maybe the problem is really in that some enemies don’t want to receive that forgiveness? After all, forgiveness is not useful, if one continues to fight against God and continues to do evil and cause suffering for all others.

That's understandable; I'm sure all of my enemies couldn't care less that I forgive them, and probably don't want me to anyway. But I forgive them because, I don't believe they "understand what they're doing": one of the most powerful statements to me is when Jesus - God in the flesh - is being crucified, and ridiculed, and hated, and spat on, and mocked, He opens His mouth and says "Forgive them, Father: they don't know what they're doing": if Jesus is God's perfect expression, it seems like God also freely forgives even His most bitter enemies.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Is it possible that the "wrath" and "vengeance" of God isn't in literally flaying people and burning them until their nerves explode, but it is in revealing truth in love, and opening a hardened heart so that his enemies are tormented by their own past actions and they fall to their knees crying "Forgive me, Father, I have sinned against You" and become transformed into His friend? Is this not a possible "Godly vengeance" against His enemies? Against those not written in the book of life?
 
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I suppose my question then is, how is God - by your interpretation and understanding of the scripture - not clearly a hypocrite? He's telling His followers to freely forgive all, but He isn't "practicing what He preaches"; is this not the very definition of a hypocrite?

I disagree with your interpretation. We aren't simply commanded to forgive without others repenting.

Luk_17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk_17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Repenting is part of the forgiveness scenario whether it's mentioned or not because it's a given.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




Or, it could be you're misunderstanding what God is saying.

It's not enough to simply say that and not prove it. Take the two portions of text I spoke of and show me how I have misunderstood.



Maybe God doesn't want us to forgive freely, and I'm misunderstanding and should not forgive freely?

Correct.
 
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John Hyperspace

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I disagree with your interpretation. We aren't simply commanded to forgive without others repenting.

Luk_17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk_17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Repenting is part of the forgiveness scenario whether it's mentioned or not because it's a given.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It's not enough to simply say that and not prove it. Take the two portions of text I spoke of and show me how I have misunderstood.

I don't disagree that we are told to forgive those that repent and ask forgiveness. This seems clearly the case, and I presume all would agree. Of course, John teaches that if we confess our sins, we have forgiveness.

But, I'm speaking of a case in which repentance is not made. If my enemy does not repent of his sins against me; do I forgive him? Or, no? If he does not confess his sin, are we taught to forgive yet still? It seems to me this is the case (it's difficult to imagine a Christian who sits and considers his enemies without forgiveness of their sins against him)

Now, these verses: Matthew 6:14-15, Mark 11:25, Luke 6:37: have Jesus making no mention of "repentance" or "confession" at all. But a straightforward teaching to forgive others their sins against us. Matthew 5:44

In this verse: Luke 23:34: we see that Jesus clearly forgives those who have neither repented nor confessed their sins against Him; they are in fact in the middle of performing them; and Stephen does the same: Acts 7:60

If all of these are the way of righteousness, and if God is righteous, then God must also abide by this character. This would of course mean that - unless God act hypocritically - then all sinners must be forgiven by Him. Note that I'm not discounting, punishment of sin, or the like; simply focusing on the idea of, forgiveness of sins, and, if God is bound by His own standard of righteousness?
 
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I don't disagree that we are told to forgive those that repent and ask forgiveness. This seems clearly the case, and I presume all would agree. Of course, John teaches that if we confess our sins, we have forgiveness.

But, I'm speaking of a case in which repentance is not made. If my enemy does not repent of his sins against me; do I forgive him? Or, no? If he does not confess his sin, are we taught to forgive yet still?

Not by command.

Now, these verses: Matthew 6:14-15, Mark 11:25, Luke 6:37: have Jesus making no mention of "repentance" or "confession" at all. But a straightforward teaching to forgive others their sins against us. Matthew 5:44

As I said, repentance is a given and therefore wouldn't always be mentioned.

In this verse: Luke 23:34: we see that Jesus clearly forgives those who have neither repented nor confessed their sins against Him; they are in fact in the middle of performing them; and Stephen does the same: Acts 7:60

Yes, there are times when God does forgive without repentance but there is usually a righteous act associated or ignorance on the part of the wrong doers.

Here is what I had saved:

Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Here a person who converts someone to Christ has their sins "hidden" which is the same as being forgiven.


1Pe_4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Here someone who shows charity to others has their sins forgiven.




Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
Luk 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
Luk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

She has not repented of her sins yet her sins were forgiven and Christ also declares that her faith saved her! Faith can results in forgiven sins.



Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Same is found here.


*****************



If all of these are the way of righteousness, and if God is righteous, then God must also abide by this character.

Righteousness also means righteous judgments and punishments in line with statements and prophecy of the same events.

This would of course mean that - unless God act hypocritically - then all sinners must be forgiven by Him.

Not without repentance in most cases. He would be a hypocrite if he forgave all of their sins without repentance since he requires it for believers.


Note that I'm not discounting, punishment of sin, or the like; simply focusing on the idea of, forgiveness of sins, and, if God is bound by His own standard of righteousness?

The fact that sin/sinners are shown being punished by God proves he will not forgive everyone. That proves your argument to be wrong from the foundation.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No forgiveness for all else these verses are lies.
 
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ewq1938

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The Bible states, thou shalt no kill, yet God has whacked several.


Actually the command says "thou shalt not murder"....not kill.

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Kill is the Hebrew word ra^tsach and in the QAL tense it can only mean murder, not killing which would be a different verb tense such as NIPHAL or PUAL.

Click on this link to verify it is in the QAL tens:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/exo/20/13/s_70013

Click on TOOLS then click PARSE.

H7523
???
ratsach
BDB Definition:
1) to murder, slay, kill
1a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1a1) premeditated
1a2) accidental
1a3) as avenger
1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
1b) (Niphal) to be slain
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to murder, assassinate
1c2) murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive)
1d) (Pual) to be killed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2208
 
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Kenny'sID

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Actually the command says "thou shalt not murder"....not kill.

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Kill is the Hebrew word ra^tsach and in the QAL tense it can only mean murder, not killing which would be a different verb tense such as NIPHAL or PUAL.

Click on this link to verify it is in the QAL tens:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/exo/20/13/s_70013

Click on TOOLS then click PARSE.

H7523
???
ratsach
BDB Definition:
1) to murder, slay, kill
1a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1a1) premeditated
1a2) accidental
1a3) as avenger
1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
1b) (Niphal) to be slain
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to murder, assassinate
1c2) murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive)
1d) (Pual) to be killed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2208

Thanks for that, and I know/agree...just quoting the King James for the sake of simplicity.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Not by command.



As I said, repentance is a given and therefore wouldn't always be mentioned.



Yes, there are times when God does forgive without repentance but there is usually a righteous act associated or ignorance on the part of the wrong doers.

Here is what I had saved:

Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Here a person who converts someone to Christ has their sins "hidden" which is the same as being forgiven.


1Pe_4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Here someone who shows charity to others has their sins forgiven.




Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
Luk 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
Luk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

She has not repented of her sins yet her sins were forgiven and Christ also declares that her faith saved her! Faith can results in forgiven sins.



Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Same is found here.


*****************





Righteousness also means righteous judgments and punishments in line with statements and prophecy of the same events.



Not without repentance in most cases. He would be a hypocrite if he forgave all of their sins without repentance since he requires it for believers.




The fact that sin/sinners are shown being punished by God proves he will not forgive everyone. That proves your argument to be wrong from the foundation.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No forgiveness for all else these verses are lies.

So, just to be clear, you're telling me that God doesn't want me to forgive everyone of their sins against me, but only those that repent to me, only those I should forgive?
 
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