God Is Neither Random Nor Capricious In Whom He Hardens Or Hates

[Minister Monardo]

Not being an academic, I only gradually become familiar with the dogmas of men that exist in the Christian Community. Most recently, this strange idea of "Gentile Reprobation" has come to my attention, suggesting that those judged as "goats" were predestined and their choices played no part. And this in spite of the Lord's own words:

Matthew 25:

45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it

to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

This is as clear a statement of personal accountability as you will ever hear, and I marvel that someone could attain to the level of spiritual blindness to ignore such evidence to the contrary against the position they hold. I then realize that this is a perfect example of the Lord hardening hearts and why.

To accuse the Lord of being random and capricious takes quite the reprobate mind. The proponents also demonstrate a marked inability to receive any instruction or correction as further evidence to the state of their heart. I would implore that all prayers, supplications and intercessions be made on this topic, even as I will now demonstrate how and why a heart is hardened in the Gospels.

John 1:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

I highlight the final phrase, for this is often overlooked, and is a key to understanding why the scribes and Pharisees, and many of the citizens of Jerusalem were hardened against the Lord, as discussed by Paul in Romans 9.

Note that the narrative also stipulates that John was "a man sent from God". The Lord Himself also speaks to this, although many think that He was only referring to Himself. I will soon prove otherwise.

John 6:

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Now, to John the baptist, and the truth that his ministry was a litmus test for the hearts of Israel.

Luke 7:27 This is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;

but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God,

having been baptized with the baptism of John.

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves,

being not baptized of him.

The Lord calls them out on this in Jerusalem, and silences their opposition.

Luke 20:1 Now it happened on one of those days, as He taught the people in the temple and preached the gospel,

that the chief priests and the scribes, together with the elders, confronted Him

2 and spoke to Him, saying, “Tell us, by what authority are You doing these things?

Or who is he who gave You this authority?”

3 But He answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, and answer Me:

4 The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men?”

5 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say,

‘Why then did you not believe him?’

6 But if we say, ‘From men,’ all the people will stone us, for they are persuaded that John was a prophet.”

7 So they answered that they did not know where it was from.

8 And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
Those who did believe in John the baptist not only were baptized by him, publicly confessing their sins, but they also listened to him teach, which prepared their hearts to receive the Lord.

John 10:

40 And He went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was baptizing at first, and there He stayed.

41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke

about this Man were true.”

42 And many believed in Him there.

Therefore, it is with good reason that the Lord hardens hearts, and those who accuse Him of doing so otherwise are hardened in their own hearts, and unteachable to the contrary, which is the very nature of a reprobate mind. Such is the true nature of man's reprobation, holding to doctrines of men that oppose the Word of God.

 

[bling]

The same words and deeds which softens some people's hearts can harden another person's heart, so what causes that?

 

[Minister Monardo]

The same words and deeds which softens some people's hearts can harden another person's heart, so what causes that?

The inability to accept correction or as the scriptures stated "the Lord's chastening" or discipline, stems from a lack of humility, resulting in a "root of bitterness" in their hearts and the hardening thereof.
"All things working for our good" applies particularly to discipline. Hebrews 12

 

[bling]

The inability to accept correction or as the scriptures stated "the Lord's chastening" or discipline, stems from a lack of humility, resulting in a "root of bitterness" in their hearts and the hardening thereof.
"All things working for our good" applies particularly to discipline. Hebrews 12

Is our discipline for our sins the result of our empathetically being crucified with Christ for our sins?

 

[Minister Monardo]

Is our discipline for our sins the result of our empathetically being crucified with Christ for our sins?

Is there a scripture that would lead you to that? Our discipline is not a punishment for our sins, it is discipline for the perfection of our obedience. Think parents and their children, like the Bible does. I referenced Hebrews 12, how you always, and I do mean always come back to this notion of "empathetically being crucified" is not scriptural, I have rejected the idea every time you raise the issue. Yes, we must accept being crucified with Christ to be free from that nature, but it has nothing to do with empathy, it is done in the fear of God and His verdict against sin. Sin must be put to death, without empathy for the flesh. God's willingness to see His Son crucified confirms the gravity of the issue.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Not being an academic, I only gradually become familiar with the dogmas of men that exist in the Christian Community.

So, you've done no actual research of any kind and are no scholar, but you heard of some crazy concept and your here to set the Christians straight?

Being new to this theory and knowing nothing about it of course.

Then you have the audacity to accuse others of lacking humility.

As for the topic, "double predestination" is what you explained, and is considered a heresy, if you notice part of forum rules is that it cannot be taught on this forum.

So I have to tell you your preaching to the choir.

Now there is a belief in predestination, and it differs in teaching than the heresy of double predestination... But that's not what you described. What you described is called double predestination, is a heresy, and isn't taught here by anyone.

 

[Clare73]

Not being an academic, I only gradually become familiar with the dogmas of men that exist in the Christian Community. Most recently, this strange idea of "Gentile Reprobation" has come to my attention, suggesting that those judged as "goats" were predestined and their choices played no part. And this in spite of the Lord's own words:

Matthew 25:

45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it

to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

This is as clear a statement of personal accountability as you will ever hear, and I marvel that someone could attain to the level of spiritual blindness to ignore such evidence to the contrary against the position they hold. I then realize that this is a perfect example of the Lord hardening hearts and why.

To accuse the Lord of being random and capricious takes quite the reprobate mind. The proponents also demonstrate a marked inability to receive any instruction or correction as further evidence to the state of their heart. I would implore that all prayers, supplications and intercessions be made on this topic, even as I will now demonstrate how and why a heart is hardened in the Gospels.

John 1:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

I highlight the final phrase, for this is often overlooked, and is a key to understanding why the scribes and Pharisees, and many of the citizens of Jerusalem were hardened against the Lord, as discussed by Paul in Romans 9.

Note that the narrative also stipulates that John was "a man sent from God". The Lord Himself also speaks to this, although many think that He was only referring to Himself. I will soon prove otherwise.

John 6:

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Now, to John the baptist, and the truth that his ministry was a litmus test for the hearts of Israel.

Luke 7:27 This is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;

but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God,

having been baptized with the baptism of John.

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves,

being not baptized of him.

The Lord calls them out on this in Jerusalem, and silences their opposition.

Luke 20:1 Now it happened on one of those days, as He taught the people in the temple and preached the gospel,

that the chief priests and the scribes, together with the elders, confronted Him

2 and spoke to Him, saying, “Tell us, by what authority are You doing these things?

Or who is he who gave You this authority?”

3 But He answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, and answer Me:

4 The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men?”

5 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say,

‘Why then did you not believe him?’

6 But if we say, ‘From men,’ all the people will stone us, for they are persuaded that John was a prophet.”

7 So they answered that they did not know where it was from.

8 And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
Those who did believe in John the baptist not only were baptized by him, publicly confessing their sins, but they also listened to him teach, which prepared their hearts to receive the Lord.

John 10:

40 And He went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was baptizing at first, and there He stayed.

41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke

about this Man were true.”

42 And many believed in Him there.

Therefore, it is with good reason that the Lord hardens hearts, and those who accuse Him of doing so otherwise are hardened in their own hearts, and unteachable to the contrary, which is the very nature of a reprobate mind. Such is the true nature of man's reprobation, holding to doctrines of men that oppose the Word of God.

Ro 9:21: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay (the difference is not due to the clay) some pottery for honorable use and some for dishonorable use?" (the difference is due to the potter)

 

[Minister Monardo]

So, you've done no actual research of any kind and are no scholar, but you heard of some crazy concept and your here to set the Christians straight?

Being new to this theory and knowing nothing about it of course.

Then you have the audacity to accuse others of lacking humility.

First, I did not accuse anyone of lacking humility, I was asked a question concerning
why I thought disciple had a positive effect on some and a negative on others.
Your snarky comment, as they always are, was out of place, and more a reflection
on yourself, so consider your ways before chastising me.
Secondly, I know the scriptures, and I don't need you to tell me what I was addressing
is a heresy. The audacity to think that you are the "defender of the forum" is simply
out of place, since at any time there is 5 to 10X the guests on the forum as regular members.
I don't have to be an academic or familiar with a theory to immediately recognize when
someone is misinterpreting scripture that I have more than sufficient knowledge of.
The interaction that I had with someone on this issue was in fact on another forum,
where I addressed this, but they referred to it as "Jewish and Gentile Reprobation",
the fact that you have a different or better name for a heresy means nothing to me,
so your willingness to bring me up to speed on your expertise serves no purpose
for me personally, since I do not seek to be fluent in heresy.
Perhaps the comment will help someone else, which is why I re-posted the thread.

So I have to tell you your preaching to the choir.

Nope. As I just explained, I posted for the edification of others who may have had a similar
experience in a discussion. It would be nonsense to think that I was posting to "educate
other Christians who know their heresies". Congrats, by the way.

Now there is a belief in predestination, and it differs in teaching than the heresy of double predestination... But that's not what you described. What you described is called double predestination, is a heresy, and isn't taught here by anyone.

Yes, I am familiar with predestination, No, that is not what I was describing.
I have no concern with the correct theological lingo, so I am not likely to dwell
on your attempt to educate me on the use of "double predestination".
As to whether or not someone has never posted a comment
that reflected that belief, I would love to see you prove that.
I find the comment ridiculous, but also not my concern.
Since you are so eager to be helpful and offer explanations,
how does Romans 9:21 fit into the discussion,
since it was posted to thread immediately after yours,
and I am not sure of the point.

 

[Minister Monardo]

So, you've done no actual research of any kind and are no scholar, but you heard of some crazy concept and your here to set the Christians straight?

Being new to this theory and knowing nothing about it of course.

Then you have the audacity to accuse others of lacking humility.

As for the topic, "double predestination" is what you explained, and is considered a heresy, if you notice part of forum rules is that it cannot be taught on this forum.

So I have to tell you your preaching to the choir.

Now there is a belief in predestination, and it differs in teaching than the heresy of double predestination... But that's not what you described. What you described is called double predestination, is a heresy, and isn't taught here by anyone.

By the way, the topic is actually about the Lord hardening someone's heart, and whether this would ever be done without clear justification. I provided detailed evidence that the scribes and Pharisees had hardened hearts as a direct result of their decisions and actions in rejecting John's baptism. But I am sure you knew all that already, and I was "preaching to the choir".

 

[bling]

Is there a scripture that would lead you to that? Our discipline is not a punishment for our sins, it is discipline for the perfection of our obedience. Think parents and their children, like the Bible does. I referenced Hebrews 12, how you always, and I do mean always come back to this notion of "empathetically being crucified" is not scriptural, I have rejected the idea every time you raise the issue. Yes, we must accept being crucified with Christ to be free from that nature, but it has nothing to do with empathy, it is done in the fear of God and His verdict against sin. Sin must be put to death, without empathy for the flesh. God's willingness to see His Son crucified confirms the gravity of the issue.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Paul was not one of the thieves on a cross net to Christ so was he not empathetically crucified with Christ?
How painful is it to be crucified? Is it not a fair/just discipline?

 

[Minister Monardo]

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Paul was not one of the thieves on a cross net to Christ so was he not empathetically crucified with Christ?
How painful is it to be crucified? Is it not a fair/just discipline?

This has nothing to do with empathy, or the physical pain associated with crucifixion, as many have endured many forms of tortuous death. You are belittling the Cross entirely. He bore the griefs, the sorrows, the guilt, the shame and all other manner of psychological and spiritual damage inflicted by sin all creation. You can't even come close to imagining what He endured for all mankind for the Father to forgive and forget, so no, I don't buy it at all. You do greatly err.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So, do goats become sheep and, if so, by what biological process? Can sheep become goats? If so, how does that happen?

 

[bling]

This has nothing to do with empathy, or the physical pain associated with crucifixion, as many have endured many forms of tortuous death. You are belittling the Cross entirely. He bore the griefs, the sorrows, the guilt, the shame and all other manner of psychological and spiritual damage inflicted by sin all creation. You can't even come close to imagining what He endured for all mankind for the Father to forgive and forget, so n

So, you have no empathy for what Christ went through?
Do you feel God the Father had empathy for Christ, while Christ was on the cross?
Others have suffered cruel harsh deaths before, but none had the power at any moment in the ordeal, to stop the pain and punish those who inflicted the pain. What self-control would you have to have and really what Love would you have to have since this pain was totally undeserved?
I need Christ to go through all this for me to receive the benefits that come with being Lovingly disciplined, so you can blame me for his going to the cross.

 

[Minister Monardo]

So, you have no empathy for what Christ went through?
Do you feel God the Father had empathy for Christ, while Christ was on the cross?
Others have suffered cruel harsh deaths before, but none had the power at any moment in the ordeal, to stop the pain and punish those who inflicted the pain. What self-control would you have to have and really what Love would you have to have since this pain was totally undeserved?
I need Christ to go through all this for me to receive the benefits that come with being Lovingly disciplined, so you can blame me for his going to the cross.

The scriptural choice is thanksgiving.

 

[Clare73]

The same words and deeds which softens some people's hearts can harden another person's heart, so what causes that?

We are born with hard hearts and only God, not words, softens the hearts of the elect.

Ro 9:21: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay (the difference is not due to the clay) some pottery for honorable use and some for dishonorable use?" (the difference is due to the potter)

 

[bling]

The scriptural choice is thanksgiving.

Crucifixion is not a happy time.

 

[bling]

We are born with hard hearts and only God, not words, softens the hearts of the elect.

Ro 9:21: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay (the difference is not due to the clay) some pottery for honorable use and some for dishonorable use?" (the difference is due to the potter)

People sure do like to blame God for their being hell bound, it does make God out to be evil.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73 said:
We are born with hard hearts and only God, not words, softens the hearts of the elect.

Ro 9:21: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay (the difference is not due to the clay) some pottery for honorable use and some for dishonorable use?" (the difference is due to the potter)

People sure do like to blame God for their being hell bound, it does make God out to be evil.

Seems you missed the plain meaning of the text, or your theology does not allow the plain meaning of the text.

That's above my pay grade.

 

[bling]

Clare73 said:
We are born with hard hearts and only God, not words, softens the hearts of the elect.

Ro 9:21: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay (the difference is not due to the clay) some pottery for honorable use and some for dishonorable use?" (the difference is due to the potter)



Seems you missed the plain meaning of the text, or your theology does not allow the plain meaning of the text.

That's above my pay grade.

I have taught Romans 9 many times to adults and will spend hours on it. You have to keep it in context of not only Ro. 9-11, but also all of Romans and what Paul is teaching. We like to pull verses out to support a point, but do not address why that verse was written to that place at that time.

Vessels of mercy did not have to be specifically “named” when God decided to glorify them and shower them with gifts.

You really need to put every verse in Ro. 9 in the context of at least all of Ro. 9, ro. 9-11 and all of Romans.

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Some “Christians” do not seem to understand how Paul, uses diatribes and think, since he just showed God being “unjust” and saying God is “not unjust” that God has a special God definition of “just”, making God “just” by His standard and appearing totally unjust by human standards. God is not a hypocrite and does not redefine what He told us to be true.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

Think further about this: The Jews (thinking the gentiles were dogs) would support their distant for the Gentiles by pointing out to them how God: loved Jacob, a Jew, and hated Esau, a gentile, plus Jacob and Ishmael, Moses and Pharoah and with other OT true stories. Those true stories would thus be formular to both Jewish and Gentile Christians, showing the Jews were special and the ZGentiles were just common.

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common, while others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction, since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Just because Paul uses a Potter as being God in his analogy and Jerimiah 18 uses a Potter as being God in his analogy, does not mean the analogies are conveying the exact same analogy. Jerimiah is talking about clay on the potter’s wheel being change while still being malleable clay (which fits the changing of Israel), but Paul is talking about two finished pots (vessels) so they cannot both be Israel, the clay is the same for both and the clay is not changing the outcome of the pot. The two pots (vessels) are completed and a person is asking “Why did you make me like this”, so it is about “how a person is made (born)” and not a nation.

Since Jerimiah talks only about one pot on the wheel changing and Paul is talking about two kinds of completed pots (vessels), who are the two different pots?



Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2: 21 even after leaving the shop the common vessels can cleanse themselves and thus become instruments for a special purpose. So, who is the common vessel and who is the special vessel in this analogy?

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

 

[Clare73]

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

Ro 9-11 is clearly a vindication of the righteousness of God in rejecting the Jews,
where the justice of that rejection (9:1-29) is vindicated (9:30-10:21) and
the sovereignty of God in that rejection, as well as in all his dealings with men, is likewise explained and vindicated.