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Hello, you have reached Apple Support, we will answer your call in the order ot was received...LOL. Tell it to Augustine, as noted at post 585.
What about your arguments to support immaterialism? Are they well-formed? Oh that's right - you don't have any! (I almost forgot).
In the meantime, do you have any first-graders nearby to help you with your reading skills? Because if I showed this passage to a first-grader:Hello, you have reached Apple Support, we will answer your call in the order ot was received...
I'm sorry sir, we don't service Android phones.In the meantime, do you have any first-graders nearby to help you with your reading skills? Because if I showed this passage to a first-grader:
"By the blast of your nostrils the waters piled up. The surging waters stood up like a wall; the deep waters congealed in the heart of the sea...You blew with your breath [ruach], and the sea covered them" (Ex 15).
I PROMISE you he would understand it correctly as "material breath/wind" instead of some nonsense about 'magical immaterial spirit'.
No first-graders to assist you, then. Sorry to hear that.I'm sorry sir, we don't service Android phones.
Sir, no need to get upset, my manager will tell you the same thing: We are Apple Support, we do not service Android phones.No first-graders to assist you, then. Sorry to hear that.
Sir, no need to get upset, my manager will tell you the same thing: We are Apple Support, we do not service Android phones.
Hello, you have reached APPLE SUPPORT, which SUPPORTS APPLE PHONES ONLY... NOT ANDRIOD... how may I help you?When you find a first-grader, get him to help you with this passage as well:
"He breathed on them and, said, 'Receive the Holy Breath'" (Jn 20:22).
Here too, I PROMISE you that he will correctly read it as "material breath/wind" instead of some nonsense about 'magical immaterial spirit'.
Once you learn how to read the first-grade passages, maybe I'll show you some second-grade ones.
Ask a first-grader to help you with Psalm 18, maybe starting here:Hello, you have reached APPLE SUPPORT, which SUPPORTS APPLE PHONES ONLY... NOT ANDRIOD... how may I help you?
"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them;male and female he created them" (Gen 1:27)Milk
Half & Half
Eggs
Butter
Bread
K-Cups
Lemons
Honestly I haven't studied panentheism. This post has the basics of of my cosmogony - you can read it and let me know of any questions or concerns. Meanwhile I'll do a quick lookup on panentheism to see if I can find any obvious differences.JAL, Could you explain to me how some of the ideas of Panentheism differ from your philosophy of materialism. I think it is a Hindu belief that states "Anytime you try to define 'God', it is something greater than your definition." In other words our natural , finite minds cannot comprehend the infinite supernatural. The bible kind of left me with the impression, that if not for Jesus, there would be no link between the natural and supernatural( for us now). I guess the Holy pneuma/ruach is now ( and i am in agreement with your definition of the holy ruach, that makes sense and clears a lot of things up, but i still have some questions about that i am currently exploring) the link. Which leads me to think the default position is we know God through this pneuma which sustains our very existence. (which would indicate the unforgivable sin would be to deny this very fact.)
Panentheism ("all in God”), from the Greek πᾶν pân, "all", ἐν en, "in" and Θεός Theós, "God")[1] is the belief that the divine pervades and interpenetrates every part of the universe and also extends beyond space and time. The term was coined by the German philosopher Karl Krause in 1828 to distinguish the ideas of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770–1831) and Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling (1775–1854) about the relation of God and the universe from the supposed pantheism of Baruch Spinoza.[1] Unlike pantheism, which holds that the divine and the universe are identical,[2] panentheism maintains an ontological distinction between the divine and the non-divine and the significance of both.
- In panentheism, the universal spirit is present everywhere, which at the same time "transcends" all things created.
- While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe.
In harmony with DDS, you are caught up in a philosophically idealistic view of God that doesn't necessarily represent the real world. For example, God need not be omnipresent in the absolute sense to be an effective ruler and administer justice perfectly. Rather, He merely needs to have His hand on every particle of matter in the universe as to monitor and supervise it closely.
DDS evolved because most of the church fathers felt that God had to conform to THEIR philosophical ideals. They never stopped to ask themselves whether such a God isn't a contradiction in terms or contradicts the biblical data.
Let's take for example the topic you raised here - omnipresence. According to Charles Hodge, the orthodox view, which he accepted, is that God fills all space repletely/plenally. Thus the fullness of God is fully present at every point in space (as opposed to being more or less sparsely distributed, volumetrically, throughout space). This assumption flatly contradicts the biblical data. How so? It contradicts the notion of an outpouring of the Third Person. If God is already fully present everywhere, there is no meaningful sense in which He can translocate. In fact Jesus foretold Pentecost as trading places. Meaning, the Son would return to the throne and, in His stead, the Third person would descend down here. And that's precisely what happened. First we have the translocation of the Son - and it's a wholly physical event...
"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight" (Acts 1)
...followed by the translocation of the Third Person, just one chapter later:
"They saw what seemed to be tongues of Fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy [Wind]" (Acts 2).
Outpourings also contradict a 2nd facet of DDS - the claim that God is indivisible into parts. The concept of trading places indicates that God is divisible into parts. For example 120 separate tongues of Fire descended.
Again, 100% of the biblical data favors a material God. And indeed, if He is material, then your objection to Mormonism seems blunted, since two material objects cannot fully occupy the same space - thus something less than replete/plenal omnipresence is only to be expected.
You are very consistent about denying my conclusions without addressing the specific arguments.You are funny friend, You have not proved that "As I showed on the other thread, immaterialism has an incoherent theory of omnipresence contradicting Scripture."
God is Spirit is plain. God is Omnipresent in Scripture is plain too.
God holding all things together is a work of God, not his nature attribute.
Oh, ok. The only thing i know about Panentheism is that definition from wikipedia !! But i like the way you answered my questions !! Nice Angle. Anyway. After reading your post on your cosmology. I think i have been missing the point of the spirit being an actual physical breath only. Perhaps my confusion on this matter comes from the many bible verses and interpretations that paint it in a different light. In all honesty JAL, i'm the king of misinterpreting the bible. I was considering making a thread addressing that issue. It throws me for a loop how the bible can be absolute truth, but no absolute way to interpret it properly. Which in turn makes the Absolute truth blurry and subjective to individual interpretation. Perhaps you can shed some light on this for me !! Back on topic, Are you saying the spirit is matter? So we would receive a full bodilly resurrection after death, and not be cosmic spirits?! I think if i can wrap my head around your cosmology it will definitely clear up some common misconceptions arising from scripture. Thank you for being patient with me, I'm just a student trying to take in this view. I do like how you offer solutions to common problems that have plauged the church for years. And you stand your ground to help us work through these problems together. As we are in desperate need of a better understanding of the current state of affairs.Honestly I haven't studied panentheism. This post has the basics of of my cosmogony - you can read it and let me know of any questions or concerns. Meanwhile I'll do a quick lookup on panentheism to see if I can find any obvious differences.
God is material (i.e. tangible) and formed the universe from leftover matter in the Totality. This leftover matter was essentially dead in the sense of non-sentience like a plant or a rock (negligibly conscious).Are you saying the spirit is matter? So we would receive a full bodilly resurrection after death, and not be cosmic spirits?!
BINGO!... It throws me for a loop how the bible can be absolute truth, but no absolute way to interpret it properly. Which in turn makes the Absolute truth blurry and subjective to individual interpretation. ...
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