God, free will, sinning and hell

[bubuchan]

When God gave us free will, did he know that he was making us so that we deserve hell? Why didn't he design us to live perfect lives in the first place, so he never would have had to give his son up for sacrifice? Those who believe in hell most likely don't want to go there, so why did God make it so easy for us to end up there? What is the point of creating lives that are meant to sin, when you, the creator, hate sin? That's like building a robot meant for slaughtering people when you actually don't want anyone to get slaughtered. Why make something like that? Maybe that doesn't make sense to you guys, but... I just wonder why.

 

[Digit]

I think that this collectively falls under the 'God and evil' criticism, and it's a fair question. I can only relate to you how I think about it:

I had real issues with the idea of Hell to be frank, and I went on a bit of a depressing research spree where I learnt as much as I could about it. I wanted to know precisely why it was necessary. The short version of this is I looked at some of the words used in the Bible to see what their definitions were, and also how they were used in other places throughout the Bible. Something that struck me was that words which we have come to translate as eternal are used in other areas of the Bible that describe non-eternal things, but permanent things. My belief now is that there is no place where people suffer forever without hope of relief or escape. Yes, those with sin will perish - there are no two ways around this. If you want to read what first put me onto this line of thinking have a clicky. I do not expect everything will agree, but that's ok. You make your own mind up.

Unfortunately Hell makes for good fiction, so even if you aren't a Christian, you generally 'know' Hell is a place where bad people go and it's all fire, demons and pitchforks. Such is the effect of media on us, that over time, it can become what we believe. Just like a lie you tell yourself too often, you start to believe it.

As to your other questions, I feel that they all rest on the premise that there is in fact just such a place as you describe, if that premise goes away, so do those concerns.

All the best!

 

[Wedjat]

I can't answer your question, as I don't believe in hell, but it's good that you're asking, it's good to step back and look at things that are taken for granted objectively. Keep on asking until you find the answers, and don't be afraid of the answers that you find.

 

[drich0150]

When God gave us free will, did he know that he was making us so that we deserve hell? Why didn't he design us to live perfect lives in the first place, so he never would have had to give his son up for sacrifice?

We have been given this life to prove to ourselves in whom we love more. Ourselves and out theologies or God. God could have rightly divided the sheep from the Goats, the wheat from the chaff upon our creation. But, how would you have responded if you were merely created to exist in Hell? Most of us would cry out to God for a chance. we would have convinced ourselves that if simply given the chance we would choose God over that existence. So we have been given this whisper of existence to prove to ourselves just where our hearts lie.

Those who believe in hell most likely don't want to go there, so why did God make it so easy for us to end up there? What is the point of creating lives that are meant to sin, when you, the creator, hate sin? That's like building a robot meant for slaughtering people when you actually don't want anyone to get slaughtered. Why make something like that? Maybe that doesn't make sense to you guys, but... I just wonder why.

To answer this I have to give you some proper definitions.

Sin, anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil, malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin. All sin is deserving of hell.

Freewill, is the ability to choose something not in the expressed will of God. in a sense to be in our will is to be out of His will. That is why it can be said, that it is in our nature to sin.

So why give us a choice? Because He only wants those who love and want to be with Him, to in fact be in Heaven with Him. For there to be an actual choice, we need to have something to choose to do outside of the will of God. Otherwise then how could we actually choose anything? But in the process of making that choice, we will have sinned, and sin automatically disqualifies from Heaven, so enter Jesus and his sacrifice. (giving us The Choice.)

You have to remember the angels were created to simply exist with God and a very large number risked literal hell for a chance to be away from God. If God were to create us just to live with Him, what makes you think that those who do not love God now, would do so if we were in the presents of His glory? Do you think any of us were created with a better or more fortified than any of the angels?

Because God is a righteous God we have been allowed to choose to either be with Him, or to be with ourselves.

 

[Van]

Hi Bubuchan, you question is often asked in various forms on this forum. God created man to bring Him glory. In order for us to bring Him glory, we must choose to trust in Him and repent from trusting in ourselves. Thus, the very purpose God had in creating us required that He give us the capacity to choose to trust in Him or not. But what about all those folks that either reject Jesus, or never even had the chance to trust in Jesus? They receive perfect justice, they are punished for their misdeeds and no more or no less.

 

[aiki]

When God gave us free will, did he know that he was making us so that we deserve hell? Why didn't he design us to live perfect lives in the first place, so he never would have had to give his son up for sacrifice? Those who believe in hell most likely don't want to go there, so why did God make it so easy for us to end up there? What is the point of creating lives that are meant to sin, when you, the creator, hate sin? That's like building a robot meant for slaughtering people when you actually don't want anyone to get slaughtered. Why make something like that? Maybe that doesn't make sense to you guys, but... I just wonder why.

Initially, Adam and Eve were not corrupted by sin. They were created perfectly innocent and for a time lived in intimate fellowship with their Creator - as He intended. But God apparently didn't want to create a race of puppets or robots. He wanted us to love and worship him. Neither robots nor puppets can do this, though, can they? A robot is a slave to its programming; it has no genuine will or feeling of its own. If God wanted to be truly loved and worshiped by us, He had to give us the capacity to choose not to do these things. And so He did. The result, as you know, is that Adam and Eve, with some encouragement from the devil, wrongly exercised their ability to choose. The awful consequence of their choice continues to curse us today. Fortunately, God has not left things to be completely ruined by sin. He made a way for us to be reconciled to Himself and fulfill our fundamental purpose in being: glorifying God. No one has to live under the power of sin, or under the terrible threat of God's wrath. Jesus has provided a way of salvation for mankind.

Peace.

 

[salida]

Actually, God put all individuals in this world in a certain place and time period so that they may know God- Acts 17:26-27. Plus, Romans 1:20 - we are without excuse because of his creation.

 

[bubuchan]

Hmm. I see what you're saying, but it does not resonate with me. Perhaps I just can't conceive of some thing creating solar systems and stars and planets with humans and animals living on one of those planets (that we know of) for the sole purpose of making himself look good. Isn't that what is meant by "glorifying himself"? In less euphemistic terms, being really conceited?

It appears I am struggling with this concept... I just can't believe what I'm reading/hearing sometimes. Sorry for that.

 

[drich0150]

Perhaps I just can't conceive of some thing creating solar systems and stars and planets with humans and animals living on one of those planets (that we know of) for the sole purpose of making himself look good.

You were created in His image, meaning you were given the same kind of (root or base) emotions, wants, and desires.

So if you had an option to live in nothingness or a very minimal existence (say in a dark cave) or you had the power/money to seek out and surround yourself with friends, a nice house, solid car, and very good education, would you? or would you prefer to live in a dark cave? Would you consider the social life style to be "Really conceited?" Even if all of your needs could be meet in your cave dwelling existence?

How is wanting something more than the very minimal existence for yourself, any more or less conceited than God living or creating more than His minimal requirements for himself? Why is it OK for you to seek out those who you love you, and He can't without "glorifying himself" in your mind's eye?

It appears I am struggling with this concept... I just can't believe what I'm reading/hearing sometimes. Sorry for that.

 

[Van]

Bubuchan, is the purpose to build a fellowship with humans who are really not conceited.
Since God is perfect and all-powerful, it follows logically that it is flat impossible for God to be conceited.

God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble.

 

[aiki]

Hmm. I see what you're saying, but it does not resonate with me.

I have no idea what that means...

Why is "resonation" the basis upon which you decide if a thing is true or not?

Perhaps I just can't conceive of some thing creating solar systems and stars and planets with humans and animals living on one of those planets (that we know of) for the sole purpose of making himself look good. Isn't that what is meant by "glorifying himself"? In less euphemistic terms, being really conceited?

Why do you think God's sole purpose in making the Universe was to "make Himself look good"?

It appears I am struggling with this concept... I just can't believe what I'm reading/hearing sometimes. Sorry for that.

Can't? Or won't? Sometimes it can be difficult to tell.

Peace.

 

[Valerian Red]

Perhaps I just can't conceive of some thing creating solar systems and stars and planets with humans and animals living on one of those planets (that we know of) for the sole purpose of making himself look good. Isn't that what is meant by "glorifying himself"? In less euphemistic terms, being really conceited?

Hi, are you very new in Christ, or been a long time away? God's ways are so different from any man's. It is very difficult (impossible) to know how different without experiencing God's power personally. The glorification of God is the only honest and true measure of His worth. But that may not agree with you if you're new. So just build on what you now have. As Jesus said, if you don't believe Him, believe the miracles. What has He done for you? Has He saved your behind from ruin? If you wait for all of Scripture to make sense to you before you'll be willing to rely on Him to make some of your decisions, you'll push the Spirit out of the picture. CS Lewis came to Christ after and despite years of intense intellectual reservations but it took him years of debating with skilled apologists. The end result was a brilliant Christian apologist. And so it might be with you. Or if you're just an average Jane, it might prevent your ever trusting God. (CS Lewis later experienced miracles with power, but only after a good long time of being led by the Spirit.)

Is it more important to you to be happy or to have it figured out? Seeking information of little present use (heaven, hell, just who does this God think he is -- God?) at the expense of more pressing matters (how do I lose dread and despair? move away from dead thoughts and things? existential nausea?) is a risky choice (oh no! free will!). I'd hate to be scheduled for an experimental protocol for pancreatic cancer and insist on postponing until I understood the all cellular biology first. Maybe you've just not been in enough of a jam to stop caring if you get everything. Are you willing to settle for being happy (not unthinking, but happy) -- today? Happy, yet fully alert -- thinking a few of God's thoughts, not your tired doubts and objections. Are you ready? Afraid to trust (especially a male)? Surrender disgusts you? Ask Him for willingness -- He will do it. Do you want to be happy?

 

[rdclmn72]

The human race as a whole has predestination as an option to be chosen by individuals who claim the christian lifestyle and blessings as a birthright.
Nobody conciously chooses hell as an option, yet at a time of God's choosing, we all get judged, believers that recieve God's praise, and others that fall into the other category.
Paul will later mention the need for all of us to be sure of those things we believe in, for us to work out these matters that deal with our individual faith, to seek peace with others, all within reach.

 

[Blue Money]

Actually, God put all individuals in this world in a certain place and time period so that they may know God- Acts 17:26-27. Plus, Romans 1:20 - we are without excuse because of his creation.

I assume by "his creation" you mean the beauty of the star-filled heavens; the mathematical perfection of the spirals in a snail's shell, or in distant galaxies; the phenomenon of love ect.
But what about: parasitic worms (who created them, Satan you say? Didn't know he could create life!); the vile odor and infectivity of human feces (did God HAVE to make human waste so foul we have to hide in a locked room to relieve ourselves?) How about he Boxing Day Tsunami on December 26, 2004 in Indonesia? Or the horrible suffering endured by wild animals (like a zebra getting slowly disemboweled by wild dogs in Africa) which no sane person can attribute to "sin"; and I could go on here but I'll spare you.
Are these most "non-God-proving" natural phenomena ALSO wonderful "evidence of God's creation" which leave us with "no excuse?"

 

[Blue Money]

Initially, Adam and Eve were not corrupted by sin. They were created perfectly innocent and for a time lived in intimate fellowship with their Creator - as He intended. But God apparently didn't want to create a race of puppets or robots. He wanted us to love and worship him. Neither robots nor puppets can do this, though, can they? A robot is a slave to its programming; it has no genuine will or feeling of its own. If God wanted to be truly loved and worshiped by us, He had to give us the capacity to choose not to do these things. And so He did. The result, as you know, is that Adam and Eve, with some encouragement from the devil, wrongly exercised their ability to choose.

Why did God allow the devil have a crack at 'em? (Innocent
babes that they were, what chance did they have? Talk about
being set up for failure!)
Surely God, who knows all and sees all, and knows the
past, present, and future... would have known that rebellious
cherub (Satan) hated Adam and Eve and was coming to
deceive them. And He knew they'd fall when Satan came!
WHY DIDN'T GOD JUST THROW SATAN INTO ETERNAL FIRE
(or annihilate him) IMMEDIATELY? OR AT LEAST RESTRAIN
HIM? WHY DID HE LET SATAN RUN LOOSE AFTER HE REBELLED????????????????? (Sorry for the caps lock, but
this is THE most important question in all of Christianity,
IMHO.)
So what if man sinned? According to your own words, it's
God's own fault. "He" is either incompetent, malevolent, or both according to the entire "original sin" tale. (Maybe God should throw HIMSELF into the
"Lake of Fire" if this narrative is true!)

 

[aiki]

Why did God allow the devil have a crack at 'em? (Innocent
babes that they were, what chance did they have? Talk about
being set up for failure!)

Actually, of all people, Adam and Eve had the greatest cause not to do as the devil tempted them to do: They walked and talked with God in person every day! They most certainly weren't "set up" for failure. They were, however, not prevented from being tempted, for doing so would be the same as negating their will altogether; for if there is never any temptation to do evil, you can't truly choose to do what is right.

Surely God, who knows all and sees all, and knows the
past, present, and future... would have known that rebellious
cherub (Satan) hated Adam and Eve and was coming to
deceive them. And He knew they'd fall when Satan came!

Yes, but if He interfered with every moment of temptation we faced we would not be free moral agents able to actually choose between right and wrong.

WHY DIDN'T GOD JUST THROW SATAN INTO ETERNAL FIRE
(or annihilate him) IMMEDIATELY? OR AT LEAST RESTRAIN
HIM? WHY DID HE LET SATAN RUN LOOSE AFTER HE REBELLED????????????????? (Sorry for the caps lock, but
this is THE most important question in all of Christianity,
IMHO.)

Believe me, Satan doesn't "run loose." If he did, we'd all be destroyed by him! God will cast Satan into Hell. And He does limit Satan's doings here on earth.

So what if man sinned? According to your own words, it's
God's own fault.

It isn't His fault. Creating the potential for sin is not the same as causing sin. If I make a ladder and someone fooling around on it falls off of it and is injured, is the injury my fault because I made the ladder? No, of course not. The fault lies with the person fooling around on the ladder. Likewise, God is not responsible for times when we "fall off the ladder" and sin.

"He" is either incompetent, malevolent, or both according to the entire "original sin" tale. (Maybe God should throw HIMSELF into the
"Lake of Fire" if this narrative is true!)

Well, your spin on the narrative is not true, nor is God as you describe Him above.

Peace.

 

[Blue Money]

Actually, of all people, Adam and Eve had the greatest cause not to do as the devil tempted them to do: They walked and talked with God in person every day! They most certainly weren't "set up" for failure. They were, however, not prevented from being tempted, for doing so would be the same as negating their will altogether; for if there is never any temptation to do evil, you can't truly choose to do what is right.

-But God knew it would happen all along, and he didn't do anything to stop Satan. He knew it would happen from before the world's creation, and yet he set the creation in motion in such a way as it WOULD happen. He WANTED Adam and Eve to screw the pooch and get cast out of that garden. (Unless God can't see the future?)

Yes, but if He interfered with every moment of temptation we faced we would not be free moral agents able to actually choose between right and wrong.

- Where does it say in the Bible about us being "free moral agents?" Chapter and verse please!

Believe me, Satan doesn't "run loose." If he did, we'd all be destroyed by him! God will cast Satan into Hell. And He does limit Satan's doings here on earth.

-Not very well apparently.



It isn't His fault. Creating the potential for sin is not the same as causing sin. If I make a ladder and someone fooling around on it falls off of it and is injured, is the injury my fault because I made the ladder? No, of course not. The fault lies with the person fooling around on the ladder. Likewise, God is not responsible for times when we "fall off the ladder" and sin.

-Yeah, just like cigarette companies are innocent of creating, marketing, and distributing an addictive, dangerous product. They didn't mean for tobacco smoke to cause cancer and heart disease after all. It's not their fault that rather like Satan's snake act, they created "Joe Camel" to entice young kids to smoke. Of course, unlike a smoker smoking or ladder climber climbing ladders, we had NO CHOICE as to whether we'd find ourselves created to live in Big T.P.'s Funhouse (the world according to your beliefs.) And we also didn't ask for
Satan's little visit in the guise of a snake, OR for sin to be hereditary... whose fault is that, may I ask???



Well, your spin on the narrative is not true, nor is God as you describe Him above.

-As I'm trying to tell you. (And how is your take on the subject not a "spin" if mine is?)

Peace.

 

[aiki]

But God knew it would happen all along, and he didn't do anything to stop Satan. He knew it would happen from before the world's creation, and yet he set the creation in motion in such a way as it WOULD happen. He WANTED Adam and Eve to screw the pooch and get cast out of that garden. (Unless God can't see the future?)

Knowing a thing will happen and wanting it to happen are two different things. Every couple that gives birth to a child knows that someday that child will face death, yet they still decide to have a child. Is the couple guilty of causing the child's death? Do they have a child because they want that child to die? Hardly. However, under your logic, one could make a case that they are. Is it reasonable to make such a case? I don't think so. If it were, couples having children would be brought up on charges of murder all the time!

God also knew that He would make a way past what Adam and Eve did in the Garden. He provided a way for people to atone for their sin through animal sacrifice until He sent "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" once for all. God's plan extended beyond the Fall of Man in Eden to the cross of Calvary and the Resurrection.

Where does it say in the Bible about us being "free moral agents?" Chapter and verse please!

Any verse which speaks of the punishment of Hell implies it. Any verse in Scripture which urges us to do what is right over what is wrong implies a choice that we can make. The Bible doesn't explicitly teach the doctrine of the Trinity, either, but it is clearly present in Scripture.

Not very well apparently.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Yeah, just like cigarette companies are innocent of creating, marketing, and distributing an addictive, dangerous product. They didn't mean for tobacco smoke to cause cancer and heart disease after all. It's not their fault that rather like Satan's snake act, they created "Joe Camel" to entice young kids to smoke.

Apples and oranges here, I'm afraid. No one thinks cigarette companies are innocent of "creating, marketing and distributing an addictive, dangerous product" because that is precisely their purpose. These things aren't by-products of the cigarette company's business, but its very aim. A ladder, on the other hand, is not intended to cause harm; its aim is not to make people fall, but to enable them to reach high places relatively safely.

Of course, unlike a smoker smoking or ladder climber climbing ladders, we had NO CHOICE as to whether we'd find ourselves created to live in Big T.P.'s Funhouse (the world according to your beliefs.)

No, its not according to my beliefs; its according to your StrawMan of my beliefs. This "Big T.P" is a cartoon extracted from your ignorant and warped understanding of who you think I believe God to be. Really, you have almost no idea at all of what I actually believe about God, and you've been too busy building your cartoon to find out.

As I'm trying to tell you. (And how is your take on the subject not a "spin" if mine is?)

Mine is biblical; yours is not. And I don't mean biblical in the sense that you have a verse or two taken out of context and removed from the greater narrative of the entire Bible as "proof" of what you're saying, but rather in the sense that your point of view encompasses all of what Scripture says, allowing it to clarify and qualify itself, and also remaining consistent with the intent of the context in which any particular verse appears.

Peace.

 

[Blue Money]

Knowing a thing will happen and wanting it to happen are two different things. Every couple that gives birth to a child knows that someday that child will face death, yet they still decide to have a child. Is the couple guilty of causing the child's death? Do they have a child because they want that child to die? Hardly. However, under your logic, one could make a case that they are. Is it reasonable to make such a case? I don't think so. If it were, couples having children would be brought up on charges of murder all the time!

-If your god didn't want "The Fall" to happen, he'd/it'd have created a universe where it didn't happen. Also, your "couples having children are commiting murder" example is nothing short of imbecilic. DEATH is nothing to fear, eternal howling torture is another matter entirely! (Especially considering how your god supposedly CREATED the torture chamber, how can the "parents" in your example hold a candle to that?)

God also knew that He would make a way past what Adam and Eve did in the Garden. He provided a way for people to atone for their sin through animal sacrifice until He sent "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" once for all. God's plan extended beyond the Fall of Man in Eden to the cross of Calvary and the Resurrection.

-Why did he futz around for about 4K years before sending Jesus? AND, why did he demand that innocent animals suffer? (The more I learn about Big T.P. the less I respect him/it..! Interesting how an all-powerful deity needs the carbonized combustion residue of primitive earth-based lifeforms. What does he do with it, get high off the smoke or something?)


Any verse which speaks of the punishment of Hell implies it. Any verse in Scripture which urges us to do what is right over what is wrong implies a choice that we can make. The Bible doesn't explicitly teach the doctrine of the Trinity, either, but it is clearly present in Scripture.

-Nice cop-out (ditto for the Trinity explanation) and nice circular argument to boot ("any verse...Hell implies it.") I guess that makes us even in the weak arguments department. Also, how can something be "clearly present" in Scripture when it's not explicitly taught???



You're entitled to your opinion.

-Indeed I am!



Apples and oranges here, I'm afraid. No one thinks cigarette companies are innocent of "creating, marketing and distributing an addictive, dangerous product" because that is precisely their purpose. These things aren't by-products of the cigarette company's business, but its very aim. A ladder, on the other hand, is not intended to cause harm; its aim is not to make people fall, but to enable them to reach high places relatively safely.

-If creating the potential for sin ISN'T creating a "harmful product" (especially given the jaw-dropping horror of of the harm, Big T.P.'s very own, proprietary brand of fiery eternal torture) I don't know what is...



No, its not according to my beliefs; its according to your StrawMan of my beliefs. This "Big T.P" is a cartoon extracted from your ignorant and warped understanding of who you think I believe God to be. Really, you have almost no idea at all of what I actually believe about God, and you've been too busy building your cartoon to find out.

-Hey, it's Fred Phelps' belief too. Aren't you getting a bit possessive?



Mine is "biblical"; yours is not (my, aren't we sure of ourselves!) And I don't mean biblical in the sense that you have a verse or two taken out of context and removed from the greater narrative of the entire Bible as "proof" of what you're saying, but rather in the sense that your point of view encompasses all of what Scripture says, allowing it to clarify and qualify itself, and also remaining consistent with the intent of the context in which any particular verse appears.

-Yup, you're with the "in-crowd" all right, as far as church doctrines go. But who knows. Tell you what - If I'm right and you're wrong, I promise not to rub your nose in it TOO hard in the next world (though I hope I won't be conscious to do so.)

Peace.

-Somehow I doubt you have that blessing, what with that belief of yours. Go ahead and deny it if you like, I wouldn't expect anything else...

 

[aiki]

If your god didn't want "The Fall" to happen, he'd/it'd have created a universe where it didn't happen.

I already answered this assertion. See earlier comments.

Also, your "couples having children are commiting murder" example is nothing short of imbecilic.

Look, BM, if you don't like what I have to say, fine, but calling me imbecilic is simply a weak ad hominem attack and, besides making you appear obnoxious, completely unproductive. Maybe a few deep breaths would help your apparent emotional upset. You're carrying on here as though you've never had anyone disagree with you before.

DEATH is nothing to fear, eternal howling torture is another matter entirely! (Especially considering how your god supposedly CREATED the torture chamber, how can the "parents" in your example hold a candle to that?)

No analogy is perfect. And your comment misses my point entirely. My point was specifically about the difference between knowing a thing will happen and wanting it to happen.

Why did he futz around for about 4K years before sending Jesus?

Because He's God and wanted to do things that way.

AND, why did he demand that innocent animals suffer? (The more I learn about Big T.P. the less I respect him/it..! Interesting how an all-powerful deity needs the carbonized combustion residue of primitive earth-based lifeforms. What does he do with it, get high off the smoke or something?)

1.) Animals aren't "innocent." Inasmuch as they have no moral faculty, they cannot be said to be innocent or guilty.
2.) The animals didn't suffer; they were killed humanely.
3.) The sacrifices weren't for God's sake, but for those doing the sacrificing. God needs nothing. He is perfect.

Have you actually read the Bible through? You sure don't seem like you know it very well at all.

Nice cop-out (ditto for the Trinity explanation) and nice circular argument to boot ("any verse...Hell implies it.") I guess that makes us even in the weak arguments department. Also, how can something be "clearly present" in Scripture when it's not explicitly taught???

I didn't "cop out," you just didn't like my answer. And do you know what a circular argument is? Your response here suggests that you don't.

Are people punished for something they couldn't help doing? No. (At least as far as God is concerned.) So, then, the punishment of Hell implies a choice on the part of those punished. Nothing circular about this line of thinking...

If creating the potential for sin ISN'T creating a "harmful product" (especially given the jaw-dropping horror of of the harm, Big T.P.'s very own, proprietary brand of fiery eternal torture) I don't know what is...

I've already addressed this. Making the potential for something to happen isn't the same as directly causing that thing to happen. It is because this is a generally accepted fact that the makers of cooking knives, or trampolines, or matches aren't sued every time someone is stabbed by a cooking knife, or bounced off a trampoline, or burned by a lit match.

Mine is "biblical"; yours is not (my, aren't we sure of ourselves!)

Quite sure.

Yup, you're with the "in-crowd" all right, as far as church doctrines go. But who knows. Tell you what - If I'm right and you're wrong, I promise not to rub your nose in it TOO hard in the next world (though I hope I won't be conscious to do so.)

As things stand, I highly doubt you'll be there - unless you have a profound change of heart and mind. God has been known to do the seeming impossible, however...

Somehow I doubt you have that blessing, what with that belief of yours. Go ahead and deny it if you like, I wouldn't expect anything else...

Why wouldn't I deny such an ignorant assumption? What the Bible teaches about Hell doesn't interfere in the least with my confidence in the promises of my Saviour.

Peace.