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God exists outside of time?

ElijahW

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I have no idea what happened at the beginning of the universe.
Since your premise is that god, the universe and time came about simultaneously I guess it must be the same that happened at the beginning of god.
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When (if) you do have some idea, then maybe we can have a discussion at that point, about if it is rational. Since you don't and we are having such problems with simple words, then there is no possibility of us having any type of actual exchange of ideas.

If at some point you can explain yourself, then we can compare what you believe to what I believe and discuss them. Since you can't explain yourself and my word use seems to be causing such problems, we are at an impasse.
 
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quatona

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When (if) you do have some idea, then maybe we can have a discussion at that point, about if it is rational. Since you don't and we are having such problems with simple words, then there is no possibility of us having any type of actual exchange of ideas.

If at some point you can explain yourself, then we can compare what you believe to what I believe and discuss them. Since you can't explain yourself and my word use seems to be causing such problems, we are at an impasse.
Yeah, must have been a misunderstanding right from the start. I was under the impression that you wanted to communicate your concepts, and you wanted to explain why your god concept is a rational and even necessary idea.
I wasn´t aware that considering the plausibility of your ideas required me to have a plausible god concept of my own.
Apparently I was mistaken. No biggie.
 
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ElijahW

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Yeah, must have been a misunderstanding right from the start. I was under the impression that you wanted to communicate your concepts, and you wanted to explain why your god concept is a rational and even necessary idea.
I wasn´t aware that considering the plausibility of your ideas required me to have a plausible god concept of my own.
Apparently I was mistaken. No biggie.
No misunderstanding on your part. I just failed at communicating my side and you apparently have no side to communicate. I make assumptions on people being familiar and able to follow what I am saying, which is always a bad assumption to make.
 
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quatona

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No misunderstanding on your part. I just failed at communicating my side and you apparently have no side to communicate.
...at least not when it comes to developing wild guesses about the origins of everything.
I make assumptions on people being familiar and able to follow what I am saying, which is always a bad assumption to make.
Yes, unless you are prepared for the situation when people are not familiar with your ideas and/or terminology. However, it makes me wonder why you are trying to communicate ideas of which you feel your audience is or should be familiar with, anyways.
 
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ElijahW

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Yes, unless you are prepared for the situation when people are not familiar with your ideas and/or terminology. However, it makes me wonder why you are trying to communicate ideas of which you feel your audience is or should be familiar with, anyways.
It's the philosophy of Plato. The guy who gave birth to western philosophy. You would think more people would be familiar with his work, especially on a philosophy board but that is rarely the case. Even when I admittedly don't explain myself as well as I should or use the proper terminology; if you are familiar with the philosophical thinking of the past two millenia then what I'm saying shouldn't be difficult to understand. It's impossible to understand though if you are unfamiliar with the subject and are working with the assumption that the concepts should be understood as superstitious entities instead of rationally.
Out of Plato," says Ralph Waldo Emerson, "come all things that are still written and debated among men of thought.​
 
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sandwiches

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Ah, there it is again. :sigh:

He seems to completely miss the point. He somehow believes that all concepts should be understood a priori, yet he continues to misrepresent your position at every single turn.
 
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ElijahW

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Ah, there it is again. :sigh:
??? That is the reality of the situation. It wasn't directed at you specifically. Everyone who is unfamiliar with the subject and makes superstitious assumptions will be unable to follow the conversation. Now if that is what you are doing, I can't be sure. You haven't said anything that makes me think you you are familiar with philosophy. Nor do I recall how you differentiate between rational and superstitious understandings of God or spiritual entities but that doesn't mean you can't. You just haven't demonstrated the ability that I know of. No need to sigh, just explaining the situation you face when discussing philosophy with people uninformed on the subject. (Again that doesn't mean you.)
 
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ElijahW

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He seems to completely miss the point. He somehow believes that all concepts should be understood a priori, yet he continues to misrepresent your position at every single turn.
And what is his position? I thought he didn't have any idea how the universe started?
 
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Davian

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ElijahW, I'm still wondering if this God you talk about is the same as the character "God" in the Christian bible?

Or is this god that you positing is/at/was/before/caused the beginning of the universe a difference God/god?

Were you planning to link them together at some point?

Who knows what your understanding of the Christian God is. I provided a Christian definition of God. If you have problems connecting your understanding of the Christian God to that definition then maybe you should reconsider your previous understanding of the Christian God.

This is not about my understanding - it is about yours. Do you have problems connecting your understanding of "God" to the character referred to as "God" in the Christian bible? Are they one and the same or not?
 
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ElijahW

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This is not about my understanding - it is about yours. Do you have problems connecting your understanding of "God" to the character referred to as "God" in the Christian bible? Are they one and the same or not?
No, I don't have any problems connecting them. Do you?
 
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Davian

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This is not about my understanding - it is about yours. Do you have problems connecting your understanding of "God" to the character referred to as "God" in the Christian bible? Are they one and the same or not?

No, I don't have any problems connecting them. Do you?

No, it all still fits within my working definition.

So you are confirming that they are one and the same. So now we can open up the bible and gets some attributes for God from there? Why did you not do that in the first place?
 
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ElijahW

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No, it all still fits within my working definition.

So you are confirming that they are one and the same. So now we can open up the bible and gets some attributes for God from there? Why did you not do that in the first place?
You are encouraged to cite the examples that you are using to build your understanding of the Christian God. I thought you were limited to just understanding it as a "character in a book" so if you can propose an actual understanding of God that you think they are working with, that would be great.
 
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Davian

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No, it all still fits within my working definition.

So you are confirming that they are one and the same. So now we can open up the bible and gets some attributes for God from there? Why did you not do that in the first place?

You are encouraged to cite the examples that you are using to build your understanding of the Christian God. I thought you were limited to just understanding it as a "character in a book" so if you can propose an actual understanding of God that you think they are working with, that would be great.

Back in post #212 I said my definition could change "should someone want to demonstrate that it is more that just a character in a book".

It would seem that you equate "actual understanding" with "acceptance of the premise". It is up to you to first establish the premise.

The ball is in your court. If you can't show me that the Christian God is anything more than a character in a book, as described in the bible, what else am I to conclude?
 
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ElijahW

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Back in post #212 I said my definition could change "should someone want to demonstrate that it is more that just a character in a book".

It would seem that you equate "actual understanding" with "acceptance of the premise". It is up to you to first establish the premise.

The ball is in your court. If you can't show me that the Christian God is anything more than a character in a book, as described in the bible, what else am I to conclude?
Ok maybe we can try again later when you can articulate any understanding of God whatsoever.
 
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