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There is no location apart from God's PresenceWell 1 set of sinners does experience joy and another set of sinners is tortured.... it's just not in the way that he meant it that is being in the presence of God is joy to some and torture for others.
those tortured are removed from God's presence, that is a foundational part of the torture itself. To be removed from the source of all that is good, all that is love all that is life.
So you discount God creating the power of evil?When I say that God did not create evil in the sense of sin, and that it is not a creature, I am not saying it is uncreated but uncreatable
Every Christian believes in the universal condemnation of the devil and his messengers, forever. So let's not get too liberal with the terms hereThat’s Universalism which is to be rejected. I had not realized we were in Controversial Christian Theology.
Oh, yeah, before I forget, there is a common fallacy about previously Holy Satan, having been a "good angel" gone bad.You presumably know what traditional Christianity teaches - that the devil fell, due to his pride, along with the other evil angels, and the remaining good angels, having chosen to go with God, will not change their opinion.
If you don’t know what traditional Christianity teaches, I would suggest you read St. John of Damascus as a means of providing you a high level overview, and also read On the Incarnation and the Life of Anthony by St. Athanasius the Great.
Jesus said that He had seen Satan fall from heaven:Oh, yeah, before I forget, there is a common fallacy about previously Holy Satan, having been a "good angel" gone bad.
And try as I might I've never found a single scripture stating that Satan was ever Holy
The observation is a simple one: Nowhere in scripture is Satan stated to be Holy, location notwithstanding i.e. heaven.Jesus said that He had seen Satan fall from heaven:
“And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Lu 10:18 NKJV)
Also, Revelation talks of the dragon no longer having a place in heaven, and the context indicates that the dragon is Satan:
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.” (Re 12:7-8 NKJV)
To have a place in heaven to start with, he would have needed to be holy.
I agree that heaven isn't some planet in outer space. We are told that things that cause evil are not permitted in heaven:The observation is a simple one: Nowhere in scripture is Satan stated to be Holy, location notwithstanding i.e. heaven.
I don't consider heaven as some planet in outerspace, fwiw, that has a geographic location
Technically speaking Satan is and remains right now, in the Presence of God because there is no place where God is not
And even at the grand finale, there will be torment in the presence of God, Rev. 14:10-11, so notions that no sinner i.e. the devil can be in the Presence of God is just a common fallacy. Everything that is is in God's Presence
While God is omnipresent, it's not the same as being in His direct presence the way that believers will be on the New Earth, and there is this as wellThere is no location apart from God's Presence
Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Can you explain the presence of God if it does not mean in the physical sense? I agree with you but I want to hear your explanation.The fact that Revelation 14:10-11 says that the devil is tormented in the presence of God certainly does not mean that the torment takes place in heaven.
Not only that but Satan actually holds an official job in heaven, he is the accuser. That's what Revelation 12 calls him, and what his role in Job 1 and 2 is when he comes before the throne of God, he accuses Job. Right now in something of a Heavenly court, Satan accuses us before God the Father, the prosecutor, and Jesus advocates for us, He is our defense.Jesus said that He had seen Satan fall from heaven:
“And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Lu 10:18 NKJV)
Also, Revelation talks of the dragon no longer having a place in heaven, and the context indicates that the dragon is Satan:
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.” (Re 12:7-8 NKJV)
To have a place in heaven to start with, he would have needed to be holy.
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Anytime we start slicing God to pieces there's probably theological issues don't you think?While God is omnipresent, it's not the same as being in His direct presence
I'll ask the Bill Clinton questionenter it
When the bible presents things like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and Revelation 14:10, we have to recognize that these passage seem to contradict each other but are both true somehow.Anytime we start slicing God to pieces there's probably theological issues don't you think?
You seem to be inserting what isn't there in 2 Thess 1:9When the bible presents things like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and Revelation 14:10, we have to recognize that these passage seem to contradict each other but are both true somehow.
Just as Matthew 22:30 seems to contradict Isaiah 65:23, but they don't, both are somehow true.
So by 2 Thessalonians 1:9 there's a way to be away from the presence of an Omnipresent being, but also in the presence. Like they're there, but it's not in the same way that they'll be present for us.
depends on translationYou seem to be inserting what isn't there in 2 Thess 1:9
Being punished from the presence of the Lord doesn't equate to being banished from His Presence as in way out there somewhere else.
It means punished from His Presence i.e. in the vicinity of, same as Rev. 14:10
So you discount God creating the power of evil?
Didn't God create all things visible and invisible including all powers?
And try as I might I've never found a single scripture stating that Satan was ever Holy
The fact that Revelation 14:10-11 says that the devil is tormented in the presence of God certainly does not mean that the torment takes place in heaven.
As stated prior I don't think there is such a place as away from the Lorddepends on translation
In this case KJV's use of "destruction from the presence of the Lord" should be understood as "away from" not that the presence of the Lord is the cause of that destruction.
Once again, I see you trying to put words in my mouth, which I specifically asked you not to do.
I'm good with the Nicene Creed. I do ask clarification questions, and yes, some are difficult. Not meant to be a threatHowever, your post raises some issues that should be replied to, but before I take the time to summarize the pre-existing doctrines agreed upon by traditional Christians in response to your position, I feel obliged to check that, to ensure we have a common reference, that you agree with the Nicene Creed.
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