God does not read minds;

[bricklayer]

God does not read minds; He writes them.

 

[twin1954]

God does not read minds; He writes them.

While I have no problem being God's robot that simply isn't the teaching of the Scriptures. God shapes the mind by many varied things including circumstances and the influence of others. He accomplishes His will by us and in us in infinite wisdom through the control of every deatail of our lives. Yet we do exactly as we desire.

 

[bricklayer]

While I have no problem being God's robot that simply isn't the teaching of the Scriptures. God shapes the mind by many varied things including circumstances and the influence of others. He accomplishes His will by us and in us in infinite wisdom through the control of every deatail of our lives. Yet we do exactly as we desire.

So does a character in a book.

Do you suppose that God comes to know your ideas?

 

[bricklayer]

One of the most significant differences between God's ideas and our ideas is that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.

 

[twin1954]

So does a character in a book.

Do you suppose that God comes to know your ideas?

Of course not. If He came to know anything He would be subject to change and His attribute of omiscience is false. He wouldn't be all wise as His wisdom would be subject to increase. God doesn't have ideas He has purpose.

 

[bsd058]

God does not read minds; He writes them.

Surely he can read what he has written.

Just being obnoxious.

 

[cubanito]

According to a number of Messianic Jews I keep running into, God only reads Hebrew. Therefore, since I think in Spanish or English, God can not read my mind ;>

JR

 

[bsd058]

According to a number of Messianic Jews I keep running into, God only reads Hebrew. Therefore, since I think in Spanish or English, God can not read my mind ;>

JR

 

[bricklayer]

To date, I am left to believe that we cannot conceive ideas. That is to say that, we are not the original conceivers of our ideas. We do not have intellectual conceptions; we can only perceive concepts.

God is the original conceiver of all ideas. We cannot have an idea that is not already eternally present in the mind of God.

This is exactly, to the smallest detail, the creation that God chose to create with exactly thses ideas, these choices, this comma (,).

This creation is a process, a prescribed sequence of changes.
Prescribed = pre-written.

God does not read minds; He writes them.

 

[bsd058]

To date, I am left to believe that we cannot conceive ideas. That is to say that, we are not the original conceivers of our ideas. We do not have intellectual conceptions; we can only perceive concepts.

God is the original conceiver of all ideas. We cannot have an idea that is not already eternally present in the mind of God.

This is exactly, to the smallest detail, the creation that God chose to create with exactly thses ideas, these choices, this comma (,).

This creation is a process, a prescribed sequence of changes.
Prescribed = pre-written.

God does not read minds; He writes them.

"The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: 'Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.'" Gen 8:21

Our thoughts are evil from our childhood. We are the origin of our sin. Would you perhaps say that God gives thoughts and those thoughts are good inasmuch as they are thoughts, but we must corrupt those thoughts, then?

 

[bricklayer]

"The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: 'Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.'" Gen 8:21

Our thoughts are evil from our childhood. We are the origin of our sin. Would you perhaps say that God gives thoughts and those thoughts are good inasmuch as they are thoughts, but we must corrupt those thoughts, then?

What I am saying is that this is EXACTLY the creation God chose to create, exactly this one. God chose this combination of our choices.

We cannot conceive ideas. We cannot conceive of an idea that is not already eternally present in the mind of God. God is the original conceiver of all ideas. We merely percieve concepts, ideas.

God cannot be held responsible for our sins because He is, literally, one person removed. God cannot be held responsible for our sins any more than an author can be held responsible for acts committed by his characters.

God is necessary; everything else is contingent.

 

[bsd058]

What I am saying is that this is EXACTLY the creation God chose to create, exactly this one. God chose this combination of our choices.

We cannot conceive ideas. We cannot conceive of an idea that is not already eternally present in the mind of God. God is the original conceiver of all ideas. We merely percieve concepts, ideas.

God cannot be held responsible for our sins because He is, literally, one person removed. God cannot be held responsible for our sins any more than an author can be held responsible for acts committed by his characters.

God is necessary; everything else is contingent.

Ok. Just wondering.

 

[bsd058]

I was thinking about this last night.

Mark 7:21 - Jesus stated that the heart produces evil thoughts from within. "From within" seems to imply that the origination of these thoughts are the hearts of men. So is it possible that God decreed for men to originate these thoughts? I just am trying to understand properly how if men are merely perceiving these thoughts that they are responsible for them.

And I'm just trying to follow the plain meaning of the text.

In this case, I would think that though men conceive of these thoughts, the ultimate cause of the everything (and therefore their thoughts) is God.

Hopefully I'm not coming close to Synergism. Sorry if I am. You can correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

[geneseib]

God does not read minds; He writes them.

If you let Him.

 

[bsd058]

If you let Him.

Ah yes, the omnipotent self surely can thwart the desires of a God whose will is weaker than ours....(Sarcasm)

 

[Eddie L]

I just am trying to understand properly how if men are merely perceiving these thoughts that they are responsible for them.

Man is always responsible for his own thoughts and his sin, even if everything is predetermined. We can't let ourselves get so wrapped up in the sovereignty of God that we forget this.

And I'm just trying to follow the plain meaning of the text.

In this case, I would think that though men conceive of these thoughts, the ultimate cause of the everything (and therefore their thoughts) is God.

God is the First Cause of all things, but even though the Father is writing the script, the Son and Spirit interact with creation only in a positive sense. God never tempts a person, but the Father can lead a person into temptation. Where the Spirit moves, moral good results. He is the direct cause of anything righteous.

I believe that's an important distinction because it helps keep those of us that embrace God's sovereignty from going too far. We don't want to turn God into Allah, an impersonal and arbitrary god. We want to embrace the triune God of the Bible.

Hopefully I'm not coming close to Arminianism. Sorry if I am. You can correct me if I'm wrong on this.

I think you're only getting close to Arminianism when you put God the Father in a position where He learns something from creation, when you forget that the Spirit is the only source of good, or when you get to the point that there is something a man generates from himself that betters his standing before God. God's sovereignty works through means, and the complexity of what that really looks like would probably cause our ears to start smoking if we saw it. If we over-simplify things too much for the sake of sovereignty we are losing sight of the experiences we're supposed to have in our walk with God.

 

[bsd058]

Man is always responsible for his own thoughts and his sin, even if everything is predetermined. We can't let ourselves get so wrapped up in the sovereignty of God that we forget this.

I definitely agree with you on this.

God is the First Cause of all things, but even though the Father is writing the script, the Son and Spirit interact with creation only in a positive sense. God never tempts a person, but the Father can lead a person into temptation. Where the Spirit moves, moral good results. He is the direct cause of anything righteous.

I follow.

I believe that's an important distinction because it helps keep those of us that embrace God's sovereignty from going too far. We don't want to turn God into Allah, an impersonal and arbitrary god. We want to embrace the triune God of the Bible.

Yes.

I think you're only getting close to Arminianism when you put God the Father in a position where He learns something from creation, when you forget that the Spirit is the only source of good, or when you get to the point that there is something a man generates from himself that betters his standing before God. God's sovereignty works through means, and the complexity of what that really looks like would probably cause our ears to start smoking if we saw it. If we over-simplify things too much for the sake of sovereignty we are losing sight of the experiences we're supposed to have in our walk with God.

Okay.

So you agree with me that God decrees all things. In that sense I think we are on the same page.

Do you think that men actually generate evil in their hearts, or are merely perceive these thoughts as bricklayer has stated?

Quote below:

We cannot conceive ideas. We cannot conceive of an idea that is not already eternally present in the mind of God. God is the original conceiver of all ideas. We merely percieve concepts, ideas.

I feel as though mere perception makes man too passive in his sinfulness. I think we really do generate thoughts which are evil, but only per the decree of God.

 

[Eddie L]

I feel as though mere perception makes man too passive in his sinfulness. I think we really do generate thoughts which are evil, but only per the decree of God.

Personally, I don't think that there's much benefit to us to try and figure all of this out. Anything we come to are speculative conclusions, and conclusions we make bear no authority anyway. Why should I dwell on something that might be true? There is plenty for us to focus on that we know to be true.

I'm not knocking you for responding to bricklayer's assertions. I'm just wondering about the benefits of his assertions in the first place.

 

[bsd058]

Personally, I don't think that there's much benefit to us to try and figure all of this out. Anything we come to are speculative conclusions, and conclusions we make bear no authority anyway. Why should I dwell on something that might be true? There is plenty for us to focus on that we know to be true.

I'm not knocking you for responding to bricklayer's assertions. I'm just wondering about the benefits of his assertions in the first place.

Well, I guess the importance, in my opinion, is in rightly understanding the nature and origin of our sin, we can have the more appropriate attitude towards God.

For instance, in understanding His decree, we acknowledge His sovereignty and glorify Him as completely in control (which both bricklayer and I are doing I believe).

Secondly, in properly understanding our role in sinful acts, we not only acknowledge our culpability (as both bricklayer and I do again), we acknowledge the depth of our depravity and need for Christ (where I think bricklayer's assertion on the origin of all ideas, including sinful ideas lacks). I believe the proper understanding--that men create evil thoughts at God's decree--establishes a greater need for a savior. We don't merely need God to stop decreeing our sin, we need the Savior to actively save us from ourselves who are actively in rebellion against God by our very natures.

Unless someone is getting upset, I don't think this discussion is completely useless in this respect.

I know you would never knock anyone Eddie. You're too nice. You're a lot nicer to me than I am to myself. lol.

 

[bricklayer]

Good, bad or indifferent, we cannot have an idea that God does not already have.

One of the most significant differences between our ideas and God's ideas if that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.

The fact that God chose exactly this creation with exactly this combination of ideas does in no way make God responsible for the acts of His creatures.

The fact that an author chooses exactly the ideas of his characters does in no way make him responsible for the acts of his characters.

God can not come to know, come to feel or come to will.
God cannot change.

God does not read minds; He writes them.
God is the author of creation.
God's creation is the never ending process of the revelation of God's glory.
A process is a prescribed sequence of changes.
PRESCRIBED, pre-written.