God discriminates

[bricklayer]

God discriminates on the basis of grace.

Creation is an act of grace.
Although God has created everything that has been created, He has not created everything. (see unicorn)
God is the Creator of all of His creatures of everything and everyone that ever actually exists.
There is also quite a bit that does not actually exist, that which God chose not to create. (see Pegasus)
There are Approx. 6.6 Bil. people alive today, not 10 Bil.
God created Adam, not someone else.
God loved Jacob and hated Esau.
God's been picking and choosing, all along.

God discriminates on the basis of grace.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

God is a meanie, guess we have to deal with eh? Maybe some people hate God, cause He hated them first?

One thing I know, replacing the phrase "picking and choosing" with "discriminates" seem arbitrary. Or does the will of clay trump the will of the Potter? I prefer and strangely find comfort in the fact that some things I do not know and may never know.

Btw, God did create the human mind, and allowed the capacity to conceive imaginary concepts as a unicorn and Pegasus, even Frodo and Gandolf.

 

[wpage]

Any Biblical basis for these concepts?

 

[bricklayer]

God is a meanie, guess we have to deal with eh? Maybe some people hate God, cause He hated them first?

One thing I know, replacing the phrase "picking and choosing" with "discriminates" seem arbitrary. Or does the will of clay trump the will of the Potter? I prefer and strangely find comfort in the fact that some things I do not know and may never know.

Btw, God did create the human mind, and allowed the capacity to conceive imaginary concepts as a unicorn and Pegasus, even Frodo and Gandolf.

God did create the human mind, but the human mind did not conceive of unicorns, Pegasus or Frodo. These are concepts originated in the mind of God. Man simply perceives these concepts.
One of the most significant differences between God's ideas and our ideas is the fact they we are not the first ones to have (conceive) our ideas.

The "clay" has a free-will, and this is exactly the combination of free-will choices God chose to create. Our free-will does not trump God's first choice.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

God did create the human mind, but the human mind did not conceive of unicorns, Pegasus or Frodo. These are concepts originated in the mind of God. Man simply perceives these concepts.
One of the most significant differences between God's ideas and our ideas is the fact they we are not the first ones to have (conceive) our ideas.

I agree, truly original ideas outside of the knowledge of God are non-existent.

The "clay" has a free-will, and this is exactly the combination of free-will choices God chose to create. Our free-will does not trump God's first choice.

I am glad we agree about God's free first choices. The clay's will is bound by the clay's nature, though the clay makes free clay choices within the boundary of the nature of clayness. Without the Potter's free first choice, the clay will remain clay.

 

[bricklayer]

I agree, truly original ideas outside of the knowledge of God are non-existent.



I am glad we agree about God's free first choices. The clay's will is bound by the clay's nature, though the clay makes free clay choices within the boundary of the nature of clayness. Without the Potter's free first choice, the clay will remain clay.

All reasoning is presuppositional.
Given the fact that all ideas are eternally present, in the mind of God,
could one say that all ideas are God's presuppositions?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

All reasoning is presuppositional.
Given the fact that all ideas are eternally present, in the mind of God,
could one say that all ideas are God's presuppositions?

I completely agree on reasoning. To the difficult question, I wouldn't say God has presuppositions because His knowledge is perfect, complete, not lacking, nor dependent on another.

Our finite knowledge, being dependent upon God, necessitates presuppositional reasoning.

 

[bricklayer]

I completely agree on reasoning. To the difficult question, I wouldn't say God has presuppositions because His knowledge is perfect, complete, not lacking, nor dependent on another.

Our finite knowledge, being dependent upon God, necessitates presuppositional reasoning.

Reasoning is reasoning.
Reasoning is the ontological sequencing of ideas.
The differences are between the ideas.
All of God's ideas are eternally present intellectual conceptions.
All of man's ideas are intellectual perceptions.
God is the conceiver of all ideas, man is a perceiver of ideas.
One of the most significant differences between God's ideas and our ideas is the fact that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.

For the record:
God's reasoning ontologically sequences eternally present intellectual conceptions.
Man's reasoning ontologically sequences a chronological sequence of intellectual perceptions.

The difference isn't so much in the reasoning as it is in the ideas.
God has His ideas necessarily, we have ours contingently.
Who then is objective? No one!

To know a thing objectively is to know a thing as it is.
God does not need a thing to be to know it, He knows it quite apart from its being.
A thing need not be as we know it, our knowledge is therefore contingent.
Who then is objective?

It is the height of arrogance for man to hold himself to be objective.
It is the height of apostasy for man to hold God to be objective.

 

[JRSut1000]

My brain hurts!! Man, this is hard stuff to follow! I wanna keep reading for a bit if I dare!

 

[msortwell]

All reasoning is presuppositional

I was wondering how you arrived at this conclusion. Did you reason it out?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

For the record:
God's reasoning ontologically sequences eternally present intellectual conceptions.
Man's reasoning ontologically sequences a chronological sequence of intellectual perceptions.

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by ontologically sequences...I understand ontology as the brach of philosophy dealing with essence and being, with that understanding I cannot make sense at what you are getting at.

The difference isn't so much in the reasoning as it is in the ideas. God has His ideas necessarily, we have ours contingently.
Who then is objective? No one!

So here we come to the dividing line between us, a point of contention.

To know a thing objectively is to know a thing as it is.

And God knows everything as it is...yes or no?

God does not need a thing to be to know it, He knows it quite apart from its being.

ok, and the point being?

A thing need not be as we know it, our knowledge is therefore contingent.
Who then is objective?

GOD is objective, and His knowledge of everything, subjective and objective, is perfect. It is only because of the God of Christianity, that we can know anything objectively...as it is.

It is the height of arrogance for man to hold himself to be objective. It is the height of apostasy for man to hold God to be objective.

So in your book, I am sitting at the height of apostasy, nice. Have you checked which forum you are posting in, and the rules here? Your faith icon reads "no-denominational". Baloney aside, just because Christians such as I affirm objective truth, that does not entail the denial of subjective truths as well, objectivism is not a denial of subjectivism, as with free will and the sovereignty of God, I am a compatibilist. Sadly, pure relativists/subjectivists cannot live their daily lives with such a view of reality, it is practically speaking "nonesense".

 

[bricklayer]

I was wondering how you arrived at this conclusion. Did you reason it out?

One must employ presuppositional reasoning to deny presuppositional reasoning.

 

[bricklayer]

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by ontologically sequences...I understand ontology as the brach of philosophy dealing with essence and being, with that understanding I cannot make sense at what you are getting at.




So here we come to the dividing line between us, a point of contention.



And God knows everything as it is...yes or no?


ok, and the point being?



GOD is objective, and His knowledge of everything, subjective and objective, is perfect. It is only because of the God of Christianity, that we can know anything objectively...as it is.



So in your book, I am sitting at the height of apostasy, nice. Have you checked which forum you are posting in, and the rules here? Your faith icon reads "no-denominational". Baloney aside, just because Christians such as I affirm objective truth, that does not entail the denial of subjective truths as well, objectivism is not a denial of subjectivism, as with free will and the sovereignty of God, I am a compatibilist. Sadly, pure relativists/subjectivists cannot live their daily lives with such a view of reality, it is practically speaking "nonesense".

Yes God knows everything, but He knows it neccessarily not contingently or objectively.
God needs not have a thing be to know it.
The objective knowledge of a thing requires a thing to be to know it,
God has no such prerequisite.
Claims of objectivity either lifts man up or brings God down.

 

[JM]

Martin Luther (1483-1546): “the love and hate of God towards men is immutable and eternal, existing, not merely before there was any merit or work of ‘free-will,’ but before the world was made; [so] all things take place in us of necessity, according as He has from eternity loved or not loved … faith and unbelief come to us by no work of our own, but through the love and hatred of God” (The Bondage of the Will, pp. 226, 228-229).


William Perkins (1558-1602): “This hatred of God is whereby he detesteth and abhorreth the reprobate when he is fallen into sin for the same sin. And this hatred which God has to man comes by the fall of Adam and is neither an antecedent nor a cause of God’s decree, but only a consequent and followeth the decree” (A Golden Chain, chapter 53).



A. W. Pink (1886-1952): “‘Thou hatest all workers of iniquity’—not merely the works of iniquity. Here, then, is a flat repudiation of present teaching that, God hates sin but loves the sinner; Scripture says, ‘Thou hatest all workers of iniquity’ (Ps. 5:5)! ‘God is angry with the wicked every day.’ ‘He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God’—not ‘shall abide,’ but even now—‘abideth on him’ (Ps. 5:5; 8:11; John 3:36). Can God ‘love’ the one on whom His ‘wrath’ abides? Again; is it not evident that the words ‘The love of God which is in Christ Jesus’ (Rom. 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again; is it not plain from the words ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated’ (Rom. 9:13) that God does not love everybody? … Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change—He is ‘without variableness or shadow of turning!’” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 248).

 

[Faith.Man]

God discriminates on the basis of grace.

Creation is an act of grace.
Although God has created everything that has been created, He has not created everything. (see unicorn)
God is the Creator of all of His creatures of everything and everyone that ever actually exists.
There is also quite a bit that does not actually exist, that which God chose not to create. (see Pegasus)
There are Approx. 6.6 Bil. people alive today, not 10 Bil.
God created Adam, not someone else.
God loved Jacob and hated Esau.
God's been picking and choosing, all along.

God discriminates on the basis of grace.

The use of the word "discriminates" puts a negative bias on the question. Who are we, God's creative work, to judge our Creator?

Romans 9:15 - For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:17 - For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Romans 9:18 - So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Romans 9:19 - You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Romans 9:20 - On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Romans 9:21 - Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Romans 9:22 - What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Romans 9:23 - And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, [NASB]

 

[bricklayer]

The use of the word "discriminates" puts a negative bias on the question. Who are we, God's creative work, to judge our Creator?

Romans 9:15 - For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Romans 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:17 - For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Romans 9:18 - So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Romans 9:19 - You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Romans 9:20 - On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Romans 9:21 - Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Romans 9:22 - What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Romans 9:23 - And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, [NASB]

The strictly negative conontation of discrinimnate was pointed out to me by my dad, Sun. morning.
You got me. I repent.
Please, allow me to amend my statement.
God discriminates on the basis of hate and elects on the basis of grace.

 

[bricklayer]

Martin Luther (1483-1546): “the love and hate of God towards men is immutable and eternal, existing, not merely before there was any merit or work of ‘free-will,’ but before the world was made; [so] all things take place in us of necessity, according as He has from eternity loved or not loved … faith and unbelief come to us by no work of our own, but through the love and hatred of God” (The Bondage of the Will, pp. 226, 228-229).


William Perkins (1558-1602): “This hatred of God is whereby he detesteth and abhorreth the reprobate when he is fallen into sin for the same sin. And this hatred which God has to man comes by the fall of Adam and is neither an antecedent nor a cause of God’s decree, but only a consequent and followeth the decree” (A Golden Chain, chapter 53).



A. W. Pink (1886-1952): “‘Thou hatest all workers of iniquity’—not merely the works of iniquity. Here, then, is a flat repudiation of present teaching that, God hates sin but loves the sinner; Scripture says, ‘Thou hatest all workers of iniquity’ (Ps. 5:5)! ‘God is angry with the wicked every day.’ ‘He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God’—not ‘shall abide,’ but even now—‘abideth on him’ (Ps. 5:5; 8:11; John 3:36). Can God ‘love’ the one on whom His ‘wrath’ abides? Again; is it not evident that the words ‘The love of God which is in Christ Jesus’ (Rom. 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again; is it not plain from the words ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated’ (Rom. 9:13) that God does not love everybody? … Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change—He is ‘without variableness or shadow of turning!’” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 248).

Awsome post !!!!!!!

 

[JM]

Homer C. Hoeksema (1923-1989): “All history, in which vessels unto honor or unto dishonor are formed, is the revelation and realization of the counsel of God according to which He loved Jacob and all His elect people, but hated Esau and all the reprobate” (cf. “A Scriptural Presentation of God’s Hatred&#8220.


Cornelius Hanko (1907-2005): “God loves His people in Christ, but He hates all the workers of iniquity (Ps. 5:5). Since God loves holiness, that very love turns in hatred against unholiness and sin. Since He is righteous, He burns with righteous indignation against all wickedness. Since He loves Himself as the sole Good, He banishes from His presence all that is in conflict with His Holy Name. God is a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him. No one has ever dared to deny that God hates the devil. And yet also the devil is one of God’s creatures, who was created as a holy angel. If God hates the devil and his host, does He not hate those who are branded in Scripture as the very seed of the serpent, a generation of vipers? Nor can we distinguish between the deed and the person, as if God hates the sin but loves the sinner. For the deed can never be separated from the depravity of the one who commits the sin, nor can the guilt be reckoned to anyone but the guilty party. Therefore God does not banish sin to hell, but the sinner. The Word of God never hesitates, therefore, to declare that God’s very soul hates the wicked and him that loveth violence (Ps. 11:5). “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13). See also verses 17 and 18″ (“Particular Love, Particular Atonement, and Missions,” Standard Bearer, vol. 42, issue 4).

John MacArthur, Jr.: “In a very real sense, God hated Esau himself. It was not a petty, spiteful, childish kind of hatred, but something far more dreadful. It was divine antipathy—a holy loathing directed at Esau personally. God abominated him as well as what he stood for” (The Love of God, pp. 86-87).


Donald S. Fortner: “The Christ of modern, freewill, works religion loves everyone in the universe and wants to save them. We are told that Christ loves all men alike, desires the salvation of all men alike, and is gracious to all men alike. That makes the love, will, and grace of Christ helpless and useless. But that language cannot be applied to the Christ of the Bible. The true Christ, the Christ of the Bible, the saving Christ loves his people, wills and prays for the salvation of his people, and is gracious to his people, the people unconditionally chosen unto salvation from eternity, whom he came to save (Ps. 5:5; 7:11; 11:5; Matt. 1:21; 11:27; John 10:16; 17:9-10; Acts 13:48; Rom. 9:21-24; Eph. 1:3-6).”


[The source can be found here.]

 

[Faith.Man]

The strictly negative conontation of discrinimnate was pointed out to me by my dad, Sun. morning.
You got me. I repent.
Please, allow me to amend my statement.
God discriminates on the basis of hate and elects on the basis of grace.

Better, but I would substitute "sets apart" or "separates" for "discriminates". More of a personal choice than anything you're saying is inaccurate.

 

[bricklayer]

Better, but I would substitute "sets apart" or "separates" for "discriminates". More of a personal choice than anything you're saying is inaccurate.

When you say "personal choice", to which person do you refer?