God creates some for hell

[Skala]

I probably am amongst the open Theists. Firstly, we have no direct analogy of how God, being outside of time, knows anything. We basically assume our kind of experience of linear time from a space/time perspective. That most probably does not apply to God that directly, if at all.

Secondly, the Scriptures from which Calvinism are derived can be understood very differently from How Calvin exegeted them, and consequently the doctrine is just not necessary. But that requires trying to understand some scriptures without pre-formed concepts, and we all find that hard to do. Nevertheless, Reformed doctrines themselves were part of an historical process and I expect they too will continue to undergo challenge and revision over time as newer insights gain greater traction within the Christian community rather than the initial resistance we are seeing now.

John
NZ

Hi John, some observations/questions:

Firstly, you argue that we can't really know a certain thing about God, positively or absolutely, because we can't understand Him.

Nevertheless, ironically, you weaved into your argument some absolute statements, when you said, absolutely, that God is "outside of time".

If we are not in a position to understand God fully, and therefore we cannot know absolutely how God can do a certain thing, how do you state, absolutely, such a thing as "God is outside of time"? Do you see the contradiction/double standard?

I am making a point

Secondly, I agree that we cannot understand God because we are finite, and He is infinite. Luckily, we do not have to sit around wondering about God, for to do so is a meaningless activity. Instead, He has revealed Himself to us, in the Bible. Therefore, we can know, absolutely and objectively, some things.

I would argue that the reason God "knows" the future is not because of some fancy sounding man-made catch-phrase like "God is outside of time", but rather, because as the Bible teaches, God controls all things, is completely sovereign over the entire creation, including humanity and its history and activities, even the hearts of men are as streams of water in His hands that He can turn wherever He wills.

In other words, the reason God "knows" what is going to happen is because He himself is Lord over what is going to happen. He is the sovereign one working out His own purposes and plans unto his own glorification.

God's knowledge of what will happen is rooted in His sovereignty. To be God is to be sovereign. All of God's attributes are rooted in, well, the fact that He is God. He knows something because He is sovereign. It doesn't just happen, as if God was a passive observer of things unfolding around Him. He himself is directly involved. His knowledge is not because he passively obtains intellectual information about something that happens, because He himself is directly involved in controlling the entire universe, down to every single atom and molecule. For in him "we live and move and have our being". And He "upholds the universe by the word of his power". Nothing in this universe is autonomous. Nothing is outside of God's direct attention and control. He does his will, not only in heaven, but also on earth.

The beloved Charles Spurgeon words it better than I can:

God has a master-mind; He arranged everything in His gigantic intellect long before He did it; and once having settled it, He never alters it, "This shall be done," saith He, and the iron hand of destiny marks it down, and it is brought to pass. "This is My purpose," and it stands, nor can earth or hell alter it. "This is My decree," saith He, "promulgate it, ye holy angels; rend it down from the gate of Heaven, ye devils, if ye can; but ye cannot alter the decree, it shall stand for ever." God altereth not His plans; why should He? He is Almighty, and therefore can perform His pleasure. Why should He? He is the All-wise, and therefore cannot have planned wrongly. Why should He? He is the everlasting God, and therefore cannot die before His plan is accomplished.

 

[Johnnz]

Hi,

some brief responses.

Hi John, some observations/questions:

Firstly, you argue that we can't really know a certain thing about God, positively or absolutely, because we can't understand Him.

Nevertheless, ironically, you weaved into your argument some absolute statements, when you said, absolutely, that God is "outside of time".

If we are not in a position to understand God fully, and therefore we cannot know absolutely how God can do a certain thing, how do you state, absolutely, such a thing as "God is outside of time"? Do you see the contradiction/double standard?

We assess time from within the created order. If God existed (which He did) before the creation of the cosmos all our reference points are of little use to us. Paul's statement "immortal, invisible" carry such implications.

Secondly, I agree that we cannot understand God because we are finite, and He is infinite. Luckily, we do not have to sit around wondering about God, for to do so is a meaningless activity. Instead, He has revealed Himself to us, in the Bible. Therefore, we can know, absolutely and objectively, some things.

As absolutely and as objectively as we know any history. And that is dependent on just what was recorded by whom and how that information was transmitted to us.

Jesus is the most complete revelation of God. All belief about God is eventually existential, not objective. God is personal, not a 'thing' or an 'entity'. We can have a confident knowledge of God, but not an absolute one. Only knowing all there is to know can bring about absolute knowledge.


I would argue that the reason God "knows" the future is not because of some fancy sounding man-made catch-phrase like "God is outside of time", but rather, because as the Bible teaches, God controls all things, is completely sovereign over the entire creation, including humanity and its history and activities, even the hearts of men are as streams of water in His hands that He can turn wherever He wills.

All that can be true, because from our limited viewpoint we bring our own humanity-limited interpretations to each of those words. For example God's being sovereign doe snot ental micromanagement of every single detail, but only that His overall purposes will be accomplished whatever happens during the process of history.

In other words, the reason God "knows" what is going to happen is because He himself is Lord over what is going to happen. He is the sovereign one working out His own purposes and plans unto his own glorification.

Knowledge of what is going to happen is an opinion, not a revealed doctrine. Again, the word 'foreknowledge' does not necessitate 'knowing every detail'. but can simply entail "God knows a lot more about His purposes and our circumstances than we do and thus can very often know what we will do in a situation."

God's knowledge of what will happen is rooted in His sovereignty.

That's a false conclusion. See my comments on this above.

To be God is to be sovereign. All of God's attributes are rooted in, well, the fact that He is God. He knows something because He is sovereign. It doesn't just happen, as if God was a passive observer of things unfolding around Him. He himself is directly involved.

Agreed, but involvement/knowledge does not require pre-knowledge on every occasion or micromanagement. God's pleading with Isreal through the prophets is an example that makes little sense if God already knows the outcome.

His knowledge is not because he passively obtains intellectual information about something that happens, because He himself is directly involved in controlling the entire universe, down to every single atom and molecule.

We disagree on this. That reduces God to some concept of 'fate' (whatever will be will be) or a deterministic world.

For in him "we live and move and have our being". And He "upholds the universe by the word of his power". Nothing in this universe is autonomous. Nothing is outside of God's direct attention and control. He does his will, not only in heaven, but also on earth.

On earth now, not totally while humanity remains in rebellion against Him. Finally, yes, according to Hos sovereign purposes begun before Eden.

The beloved Charles Spurgeon words it better than I can:

God has a master-mind; He arranged everything in His gigantic intellect long before He did it; and once having settled it, He never alters it, "This shall be done," saith He, and the iron hand of destiny marks it down, and it is brought to pass. "This is My purpose," and it stands, nor can earth or hell alter it. "This is My decree," saith He, "promulgate it, ye holy angels; rend it down from the gate of Heaven, ye devils, if ye can; but ye cannot alter the decree, it shall stand for ever." God altereth not His plans; why should He? He is Almighty, and therefore can perform His pleasure. Why should He? He is the All-wise, and therefore cannot have planned wrongly. Why should He? He is the everlasting God, and therefore cannot die before His plan is accomplished.

That is some traditional teaching from within a philosophical framework known as systematic theology. But more recent biblical theology, based on far better exegesis of the Scriptures due to more information now available calls into question some older theologies which now require revision/abandonment depending on the extent of their deviation from the biblical accounts.

John
NZ

 

[Skala]

Hi Johnz, thanks for taking the time to respond. I see that your entire dismissal of God's absolute sovereignty can be summed up by your words here:

We disagree on this. That reduces God to some concept of 'fate' (whatever will be will be) or a deterministic world.

I would like to respectfully tell you, that you are completely wrong

Believing God controls everything does not result in fatalism. It does not result in "what will be will be"

The reasons are because of what scripture teaches. I can give you three (of many) examples off the top of my head. (below) You see, "fatalism" or "what will be will be" assumes that the ends happens regardless of, sans, or despite the means. In other words, it states that Z might happen, regardless of or, without the use of (sans), what happens between A and Y. This is simply not true and it is not what I have in mind when I argue for God's absolute sovereignty of control of all things.

Instead, God works through means. He uses means to accomplish His ends and purposes. Observe:

In Acts 4 we read that what wicked men did to Christ was in fact God's "predestined plan". Nevertheless, those men carried out the evil intentions of their heart (they were held accountable), but it was still God's plan and purpose all along (His sovereignty). God didn't force those men against their wills in some fatalistic way to get them to crucify Christ. They did it of their own accord. Yet it was God's plan all along. That's not fatalism. Fatalism ignores the means or doesn't use the means. Instead, It's God using means to bring about an end.

In Isaiah 10 we read that God sent Assyria to attack Israel as the "rod of anger in his hands" (He was judging). We read that Assyria didn't know it was being used by God. (in fact God called them out for that and said Assyria was prideful for thinking they did it on their own strength). So it was Assyria who was attacking and plundering and having victory in battle, but nevertheless it was God's design all along. This is another example of God using means to bring about His desired ends. That's not fatalism. Fatalism says that the ends happens regardless of the means. That is, whether you walk into rain with or without an umbrella, you're going to get wet. As you can see, the Bible does not teach fatalism (ignoring the means) but instead it teaches that God works through means.

A 3rd example is when Joseph was sold into slavery. We have Josephs' testimony that it was not the brothers who sent him to Egypt, but was in fact God's doing, "to save many lives". Yet we know it was the brothers who physically carried out the sinful actions that led to Joseph being in Egypt. However, as you can see, they were simply carrying out God's design and purpose. God works through means.

the rub: perhaps if you viewed God's sovereignty differently (I would argue, Biblically) you would be quicker to affirm His complete control in all things.

It is NOT true that "what will happen will happen", but rather, the truth is, whatever happens in history and whatever actions and choices men make, will result in God's purpose and plan being fulfilled. He is using the entire universe as His means to bring about His purposes.

I have proven that this isn't fatalism, because fatalism ignores the means or says that the ends happen despite the means.

 

[Johnnz]

Hi Johnz, thanks for taking the time to respond. I see that your entire dismissal of God's absolute sovereignty can be summed up by your words here:

I don't dismiss God's sovereignty and fail to see how you came to that conclusion. I don't accept God's sovereignty requires his preknowledge and/or predetermination of every single detail of the cosmos.

I would like to respectfully tell you, that you are completely wrong

Your respectful dissent is noted.

Believing God controls everything does not result in fatalism. It does not result in "what will be will be"

Yes and no. Strictly speaking fatalism is an impersonal concept. But a predetermined world is not too far removed from that concept. The divine chess player makes all the real moves.

The reasons are because of what scripture teaches. I can give you three (of many) examples off the top of my head. (below) You see, "fatalism" or "what will be will be" assumes that the ends happens regardless of, sans, or despite the means. In other words, it states that Z might happen, regardless of or, without the use of (sans), what happens between A and Y. This is simply not true and it is not what I have in mind when I argue for God's absolute sovereignty of control of all things.

Instead, God works through means. He uses means to accomplish His ends and purposes. Observe:

In Acts 4 we read that what wicked men did to Christ was in fact God's "predestined plan". Nevertheless, those men carried out the evil intentions of their heart (they were held accountable), but it was still God's plan and purpose all along (His sovereignty). God didn't force those men against their wills in some fatalistic way to get them to crucify Christ. They did it of their own accord. Yet it was God's plan all along. That's not fatalism. Fatalism ignores the means or doesn't use the means. Instead, It's God using means to bring about an end.

In Isaiah 10 we read that God sent Assyria to attack Israel as the "rod of anger in his hands" (He was judging). We read that Assyria didn't know it was being used by God. (in fact God called them out for that and said Assyria was prideful for thinking they did it on their own strength). So it was Assyria who was attacking and plundering and having victory in battle, but nevertheless it was God's design all along. This is another example of God using means to bring about His desired ends. That's not fatalism. Fatalism says that the ends happens regardless of the means. That is, whether you walk into rain with or without an umbrella, you're going to get wet. As you can see, the Bible does not teach fatalism (ignoring the means) but instead it teaches that God works through means.

A 3rd example is when Joseph was sold into slavery. We have Josephs' testimony that it was not the brothers who sent him to Egypt, but was in fact God's doing, "to save many lives". Yet we know it was the brothers who physically carried out the sinful actions that led to Joseph being in Egypt. However, as you can see, they were simply carrying out God's design and purpose. God works through means.

the rub: perhaps if you viewed God's sovereignty differently (I would argue, Biblically) you would be quicker to affirm His complete control in
all things.

I have no real issue with our examples. If there is genuine choice that is not fatalism. But predetermination does not really give us free choice. What I have bolded in your statement below I am in full agreement with.

It is NOT true that "what will happen will happen", but rather, the truth is, whatever happens in history and whatever actions and choices men make, will result in God's purpose and plan being fulfilled. He is using the entire universe as His means to bring about His purposes.

I have proven that this isn't fatalism, because fatalism ignores the means or says that the ends happen despite the means.

My use of fatalism was made in reference to the doctrine of predetermination. What you have said pretty much accords with my concepts of God's sovereignty but I reject Calvin's formulations of some biblical texts.

John
NZ

 

[Skala]

My use of fatalism was made in reference to the doctrine of predetermination. What you have said pretty much accords with my concepts of God's sovereignty but I reject Calvin's formulations of some biblical texts.

John
NZ

That's nice. I have no idea what Calvin's formulations of any biblical texts are. I have never read a single thing Calvin ever produced.

So you reject divine determination.

How can you in light of the Biblical examples I showed you?

Did God determine to send Joseph to Egypt?
Did God determine for Christ to be murdered?
Did God determine Assyria to attack Israel?

If you say "Yes" to these (which you must), you have just affirmed divine determination or what you called "predetermination"

 

[Johnnz]

So you reject divine determination.

How can you in light of the Biblical examples I showed you?

Did God determine to send Joseph to Egypt?

Not that I can see. God worked through what happened in Joseph's life. That was Joseph's reflection on the events in his life.

Did God determine for Christ to be murdered?

Father and Son had agreed what was necessary for the redemption and adoption of humanity into God's family, part of which required atonement for sin.

Did God determine Assyria to attack Israel?

The Assyrian Empire endured for about 500 years as a major player in the area. They frequently expanded their territory by conquest. God simply announced that, without His protection, Israel would become another victim. God worked within an historical reality one regional superpower and one minor nation.

If you say "Yes" to these (which you must), you have just affirmed divine determination or what you called "predetermination"

Thus, no "Yes".

John
NZ

 

[Skala]

Not that I can see. God worked through what happened in Joseph's life. That was Joseph's reflection on the events in his life.

So your understanding of the Joseph story is that God is just a big plumber and is really good at figuring out how to fix a mess?

Father and Son had agreed what was necessary for the redemption and adoption of humanity into God's family, part of which required atonement for sin.

This didn't answer the question.

God simply announced that, without His protection, Israel would become another victim.

This is not what he merely "announced". He specifically sent Assyria as the "rod of anger in his hands" (ie, He used Assyria as a tool of judgement/wrath against Israel). He didn't simply passively "announce" that "such and such" would happen, without his protection. (See Isaiah 10)

Are we reading the same Bible?!?!?!?!?!

It blows my mind why it's so hard for some people to simply acknowledge the sovereignty of God.

 

[dhh712]

It blows my mind why it's so hard for some people to simply acknowledge the sovereignty of God.

I would venture to take a stab at it, though with my being so new to this it may not be my place; yet I would conjecture that it has to do with the fact that humans have free will. Thus, they can not logically place that idea with how God has determined every event that takes place on the earth--His sovereignty (leading some it seems to see that as--derisively it certainly seems though I could be reading into it--God "micromanaging" things as though it is some great task of His to have determined all events or that He is above determining everything).

I would acknowledge that the two ideas are not logically compatible (at least, to my understanding as of yet). A question I would have to those who do not acknowledge God's sovereignty then is which events are those which God has determined and which aren't? Would a beloved child's death be something which God has fore-ordained or something which just randomly happened?

 

[Skala]

I would venture to take a stab at it, though with my being so new to this it may not be my place; yet I would conjecture that it has to do with the fact that humans have free will.

Some questions:

1) What do you mean by free will, exactly?

Do you simply mean the ability to make choices, and choose what you desire? If so, I agree.

Do you mean that God can't control you or make decisions for you? If so, I disagree. If needed, I can provide dozens of Biblical examples where God controls people, intervenes, prevents people from acting, various statements about God's control over us, etc.

2) Where does the Bible teach whichever definition of free will you adhere to?

 

[dhh712]

Some questions:

1) What do you mean by free will, exactly?

Do you simply mean the ability to make choices, and choose what you desire? If so, I agree.

I've always wondered what exactly free will meant and I think perhaps many people think it means you choose exactly what you want to do, as in free action. Like if I wanted to do A, that is what I'm going to do and that is what free will is.

To me that doesn't make any sense, because there are lots of things I want to do yet am prevented from doing them.

I'm coming to the idea that free will means we are free to desire whatever it is we want and that it doesn't necessarily mean it will happen.

Do you mean that God can't control you or make decisions for you? If so, I disagree. If needed, I can provide dozens of Biblical examples where God controls people, intervenes, prevents people from acting, various statements about God's control over us, etc.

I remember reading in lots of places where He does control people's decisions though I can't remember exactly where. So then I of course immediately jump to the idea that, then doesn't that mean we don't have free will? Yet I know we do, so I know that isn't true.

2) Where does the Bible teach whichever definition of free will you adhere to?

I don't adhere to any at the moment.

 

[Johnnz]

This is not what he merely "announced". He specifically sent Assyria as the "rod of anger in his hands" (ie, He used Assyria as a tool of judgement/wrath against Israel). He didn't simply passively "announce" that "such and such" would happen, without his protection. (See Isaiah 10)

Are we reading the same Bible?!?!?!?!?!

We are, just looking at things a bit differently. As one of the the major political powers in the region at that time God allowed the political/historical realities of the time to proceed without His divine intervention on Israel's behalf. This was communicated to Isreal through the prophets. The truly prophetic gives a divine perspective into historical events.

It blows my mind why it's so hard for some people to simply acknowledge the sovereignty of God.

Terms are important. God's sovereignty denotes His overall goals will be accomplished. We do not live in a random, unsupervised universe. But that does not mean God directs everything that happens according to some 'master plan' set out in a kind of blueprint. God's interaction with His creation is dynamic and fluid, not preordained in every detail.

John
NZ