God CREATES EVIL!!!!

[JaimeMan]

I would like to take this time to remind everyone that God creates and controls evil.
Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Thank_you.

 

[Evee]

I would like to take this time to remind everyone that God creates and controls evil.
Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Thank_you.

Yes that is what it says unless someone wants to argue that this is not literal.

Good post too.

 

[visionary]

God is responsible for everything that happens including allowing Satan prove his point and thus by allowing we have all seen the damages to eternal living it has caused...we know death.

 

[Evee]

God is responsible for everything that happens including allowing Satan prove his point and thus by allowing we have all seen the damages to eternal living it has caused...we know death.

Some believe free will and some believe not.
I believe some where in between.
Do you believe everything is a part of Gods plan or that God worked around the free will we think we have.

 

[Carlos Vigil]

I would like to take this time to remind everyone that God creates and controls evil.
Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Thank_you.

Thanks for reminding me...
I believe that is what proceeds out of His LEFT HAND.

And St. Paul also knew it when he says;..."because they have not opened their hearts to love the Truth in order to be saved.
Therefore God is sending upon them a perverse spirit which leads them to believe falsehood......and be condemned." 2Thes2:10, 11


So ...can we say that evil is no accident ?

 

[daveleau]

Linguistically, the word for evil does not mean moral evil all the time but has several meanings. It is often used to mean strife, adversity, displeasure, calamity, grief and harm. It also means war. These are created in the response to sin. In looking at theology, you can not look at one translated verse to get the full idea of God. James 1:3 is a conflicting piece of Scripture if you take the wrong word for this verse (evil). Seeing this, it is highly likely that the author did not intend evil as the meaning, but another meaning. In this instance, the KJV is wrong and the NIV, NKJV, HCSB, and even the NLT are better translations.

Some of the other English words used for this word in the OT are: sore, wretched, calamity, bad, adversity, ill, temples (anatomically speaking), trouble.

This is one reason that I also highly advocate study from more than one version of the Bible. This sort of issue could be avoided by studying the entire Bible and by looking at several different translations to find the best one (not the one best suited for your issue, but the most likely intended meaning).

Other verses this interpretation directly contradicts:
Ezra 9:15, Psalms 7:9, 116:5, Pro 21:12, Dan 9:14 (among many others)

 

[prodromos]

But one may say, if God is not responsible for evil things, why is it said in the book of Esaias, 'I am He that prepared light and Who formed darkness, Who makes peace and Who creates evils' (45:7). And again, "There came down evils from the Lord upon the gates of Jerusalem" (Mich. 1:12). And, "Shall there be evil in the city which the Lord hath not wrought?" (Amos 3:6). And in the great Ode of Moses, 'Behold, I am and there is no god beside Me. I will slay, and I will make to live; I will smite, and I will heal' (Deut. 32:39). But none of these citations, to him who understands the deeper meaning of the Holy Scriptures, casts any blame on God, as if He were the cause of evils and their creator, for He Who said, 'I am the One Who makes light and darkness,' shows Himself as the Creator of the universe, not that He is the creator of any evil.... "He creates evils," that means, "He fashions them again and brings them to a betterment, so that they leave their evilness, to take on the nature of good."

St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 94-96. In this particular passage, St. Basil carefully makes a distinction between the Greek verbs κτίζω and δημιουργώ, both of which are generally translated into English as "create". However, κτίζω has a long history, beginning with the Sanskrit kshi, which, as in early Greek, meant "to people a country", "to build houses and cities", "to colonize". Later, in Greek, the word came to mean "to establish", "to build up and develop", and finally, "to produce", "create", "bring about". Having in mind these other connotations of the verb κτίζω, St. Basil discerned the proper implication of the word in this context and hence made a point of emphasizing this distinction.

 

[daveleau]

Here, Basil appears to fall into an exegetical fallacy in which he takes the word out of its time. The word can only be defined in the time context in which it originates. Late Greek has nothing to do with ancient Hebrew. I agree that the word is incorrectly translated, but we must keep from making these sorts of mistakes. For a contemporary instance, look at the word "gay". We can not apply present day meaning of the word to early 1900 conversational context and expect to see the intended meaning of the conversation. The only thing that matters is the time context the word was written in.
God bless,
Dave

 

[RhetorTheo]

Linguistically, the word for evil does not mean moral evil all the time but has several meanings. It is often used to mean strife, adversity, displeasure, calamity, grief and harm. It also means war.

So God creates strife, adversity, displeasure, calamity, grief, harm and war. How is this better than saying God "creates evil"?

 

[prodromos]

Here, Basil appears to fall into an exegetical fallacy in which he takes the word out of its time. The word can only be defined in the time context in which it originates. Late Greek has nothing to do with ancient Hebrew.

I cannot agree with you Dave. St Basil (4th century AD) is very careful to explain the meaning of the word chosen by Hebrew scribes, as it would have been understood by them, when they translated Isaiah into Greek (1st century BC).

BTW, "ktizo" still has those meanings.

John.

 

[JaimeMan]

Ahhh....Now I can explain

Yes, God does create and control evil. If he did not not, that would mean that he does not have ultimate control. Our futures could not be ordained by Him for 'evil" could get into the way. We know that God works with all of His creation (Ps. 148:8; Ps. 104:14; Job 38:12,32; Matt. 5:45) including animals (Ps. 104:27-29; Job 38:39-41) and even seemingly chance events (Prov. 16:33) What this passage does not say is that God does evil. This would deny His moral character.


And the word used in Hebrew for this passage is "Ra" and is translated as evil in the following:
Gen. 2:9- the tree of knowledge of good and "evil"
Gen. 6:5 inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all of the time
Genesis 13:13 men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the Lord.
Psalm 34:14 turn from evil and do good
Isaiah 5:20 woe to those who call evil good and good evil
Isaiah 59:7 their thoughts are evil thoughts
Isiah 47:10 You have trusted in your wickedness and have said "no one sees me"
Is. 56:2; 59:16, 65:12, 66:4...all also use "ra" and translate as evil.

And remeber the story of Job where God challenged Satan to test Job...yet Job still said "The Lord Giventh and the Lord Taketh Away, Blessed be the Name of the Lord." Job 1:22

We can trust God and be sure that He has everything...including
evil...under His Divine control.
Jaime

 

[Debi1967]

Yes, God created Evil because this is evident in the fact that Satan exists. Yes, He then allows Evil to exist, as part of His plan, because it is a tool but although the two existed even before Adam and Eve were created they were not created Evil they had to choose the Evil.

This then put us into a state of sin. And He then allowed the Evil to rule for a short time, but at the same time also, gave us a way to overcome the very thing that we were born into a state of.

Satan who is the ruler over Evil, does not report in to the Lord... Hence the reson why the Lord will have to do great battle with him in the end... But Satan is not stronger than the Lord either. And even the Lord is the Author of Evil and even though he may hand us over to Satan for his rulership, it not first because we have chosen it.

The Evils that befall this Earth are by design. Satan is being used. The Lord is allowing Him to reign on Earth because of His need for it, in order to determine the sheep from the goats.

Ultimately the Lord has designed everything, so therefore we assume that He reigns over everything, but this is not necessarily true. He can turn over the reigns of something temporarily if the need presents itself.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

Rev 12:9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him.

So the question is, did our Lord actually use Evil or did He just allow it to exist?

Then by this, and by our own free will, did we engage in the choice to choose it?

Did the Lord at times allow at times for this to be used as punishment? IOW that those who thought they had been saved from such things would then have to endure them under Satan's rule and not be protected from them by the Lord because of their choice to transgress, did the Lord use this as an option for punishment?

Was it really God's original plan to have this happen or was it by our choice that it did and He knew that it would so therefore He made provisions for it? Remember that although He created both, because it was necessary to do so, He also created Adam and Eve perfect and pure, unstained, they chose to become stained with sin. It was also an option they could have chosen to not eat from the Tree as well. We forget sometimes that although God does know what we are going to do and provides for it, that He still does not interfere with our choices. We are given them freely to make, and the fact that He knows the outcome of them does not mean that we do not have free will, it merely means that He knows what it will be.

The provisions, of such things were set into motion way before not after in order to correct our mistakes. That would be interfering with His own plan, and this was indeed His plan to begin with, not because He is wrong but because of the variable of giving us free will which in His wisdom He knew He must do to begin with. This was done to ensure that those who love Him do so of their own volition.

So Yes, the Lord because He created in everyone, including the Angels Free Will, also Created both the potential for Good and Evil to exist, but we ourselves are the ones that choose the path...

 

[FreeinChrist]

Isa 45:4 "For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen {one,} I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me.
Isa 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isa 45:6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,
Isa 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. NASB

The NASB is a more word for word translation and used 'calamity' - not evil.

NKJV:
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.'

Young's:
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'


Isaiah 45:7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

7 I form light and create darkness, (A)
I make success and create disaster; (B)
I, the LORD, do all these things.


Regarding the word tranlsated as evil, disaster, calamity...it is ra and itis often an adjective. The same word is used here:

Gen 41:3 Then behold, seven other cows came up after them from the Nile, ugly and gaunt, and they stood by the {other} cows on the bank of the Nile.

It is often translated as "wicked" and indicates unethical, immoral activity. It can mean unpleasant, noxious, malignant, or michief. It can mean calamity or something injurious.

So when reading this passage, you need to consider the context. I tend to go with the NASB here as far as the word meaning "calamity".

However, I believe God created all - including the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil of which Adam and Eve ate...so in that way, yes, he created evil.

The word is also used here:

Isa 31:1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help {And} rely on horses, And trust in chariots because they are many And in horsemen because they are very strong, But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the LORD!
Isa 31:2 Yet He also is wise and will bring disaster And does not retract His words, But will arise against the house of evildoers And against the help of the workers of iniquity. NASB


Isa 31:2 Yet he also [is] wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity. KJV

Isa. 3:2 Yet He also is wise and will bring disaster,And will not call back His words,
But will arise against the house of evildoers,
And against the help of those who work iniquity. NKJV

 

[SoLaWaVe]

Well....I guess God did make the angels..they then decided to go evil, so yea he did, but not on purpose.

 

[JaimeMan]

Well....I guess God did make the angels..they then decided to go evil, so yea he did, but not on purpose.

God is soverign and ordains everything in the universe. Whatever He does he has a purpose for.

 

[jbarcher]

Ahhh....Now I can explain

Yes, God does create and control evil. If he did not not, that would mean that he does not have ultimate control. Our futures could not be ordained by Him for 'evil" could get into the way.

It seems to me that you have a pre-set view of what omnipotence means, and are coming to it with that, rather than the other way around. Personally I'd ask for some qualification there, since as it is, one could merely say, "If God couldn't do logically contradictory things He wouldn't be omniscent" and then run themselves into that rut--and come with equal qualification as you have.

So God creates strife, adversity, displeasure, calamity, grief, harm and war. How is this better than saying God "creates evil"?

God's judgments cause grief, yes? Some of His judgments were rather calamatous, yes? That's how it's better; it's far better. It's the difference between a kind of pantheistic outlook; God being responsible for good and whatever goes against good, and creation that has rebelled.

 

[JaimeMan]

It seems to me that you have a pre-set view of what omnipotence means, and are coming to it with that, rather than the other way around. Personally I'd ask for some qualification there, since as it is, one could merely say, "If God couldn't do logically contradictory things He wouldn't be omniscent" and then run themselves into that rut--and come with equal qualification as you have.

WELL HERES YOUR ANSWER:

by Dustin Shramek​

II. What does the scripture teach?

A. The Lord creates calamity.​

1. Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6.
   ​

B. Genesis 50:20.​

1. What did Joseph's brothers mean for evil?
   ​
2. What did God mean for good?
   ​
3. Was God the one in control of Joseph's brothers' sin?
   ​
4. If God was not in control of it, could Joseph say that God meant it for good? Would it not make more sense for Joseph to say that God worked through it turn it into good?
   ​

C. 1 Kings 22:19-23.​

1. What kind of spirit did God send out?
   ​
2. What was God's purpose in doing so (v. 23)?
   ​

D. 1 Chronicles 21:1, 7.​

1. Who moved David to number Israel?
   ​
2. What was God's response to the census?
   ​
3. Read 2 Samuel 24:1, 10.
   ​
   1. Who incited David to number Israel?
      ​
   2. Who sinned?
      ​

E. Job chapters 1 &2.


​

1. 1:21--Who did Job attribute as the ultimate cause of his calamity?
   ​
2. 1:22--Did Job sin when he attributed it to God?
   ​
3. 2:10--Who should we accept adversity from?
   ​
4. 2:10--Did Job sin when he said that adversity comes from God?
   ​

F. Job 42:11.​

1. Why did Job's brothers and sisters console and comfort Job?
   ​
2. Who brought on this evil?
   ​

G. Lamentations 3:37-38.​

1. Can an evil man say or do evil things apart from God commanding (ordaining) it?
   ​
2. What does it mean for both good and ill to go forth from God's mouth?
   ​

H. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.​

1. Why does God send a deluding influence?
   ​
2. Why does God want them to believe what is false?
   ​

​

III. How can a good God who hates sin, will that sin comes to pass?

A. The problem--verses which apparently contradict.​

1. God commands Pharaoh to let His people go (Exodus 5:1), but then He hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let them go (Exodus 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8).
   ​
2. God commands us to love all people (Leviticus 19:18) and then causes hatred in people's hearts (Psalm 105:25; Isaiah 19:2).
   ​
3. God commands that the Sabbath be remembered (Exodus 20:8-11) and then causes them to forget it (Lamentations 2:6).
   ​
4. God does not take delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11), yet He says that He will delight in destroying Israel when they do evil (Deuteronomy 28:63).
   ​
5. God desires all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), and yet He does not save all people even though He has the power to do so.
   ​
6. God commands us not to murder (Exodus 20:13), but He had predestined the crucifixion of Christ which could not have happened apart from sin (Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28). In fact, it was God who ultimately killed Christ (Isaiah 53:10).
   ​

B. How can we explain these verses?​

C. How would an Arminian deal with these verses?​

​

IV. The two wills of God.

A. God's Moral Will.​

1. This is God's will as it is revealed to us in scripture. He has given us clear instructions on what we ought to do and what we ought not do. We do not need to try and guess what His moral will is, nor do we need to ask Him to reveal it to us. To find God's moral will all we must do is open the Bible.
   ​
2. In each example listed above, the first set of verses were God's moral will. They were clear commands that He does want us to do.
   ​

B. God's Sovereign Will.​

1. This is the will of God that He actually brings to pass. This is His will that has been determined from all of eternity. If something happens, you can be assured that it was God's sovereign will for it to happen for we know that God sovereignly brings about all things, including evil.
   ​
2. The second set of verses illustrate God's sovereign will. We can see that it can be different than God's moral will. After all the cross of Christ was predestined to happen, yet it could not happen without violation of God's moral will. Even though God's moral will had to be violated, God still wanted Christ to be crucified.
   ​

C. Does this make God a schizophrenic?​

​

V. The narrow lens and the wide lens.

A. God can look at the world in two different ways. Therefore he can look at sin in one way and hate it, yet when it looks at it differently He can desire that it be brought about.​

B. The narrow lens.​

1. When God considers sin in and of itself, He hates and commands us not to do it. He has no desire for people to sin.
   ​
2. When God looks at all of mankind, He genuinely wants all to be saved. He desires that none perish.
   ​

C. The wide lens.​

1. When God considers sin in the context of all of redemptive history, He can will for it to come about. He does not bring it about for its own sake, rather He does it for the sake of a greater good. While He hates sin in and of itself, when all things are considered, He may will for it to happen.
   ​
2. Same in reference to salvation. While through the narrow lens, God wants all to be saved, when He looks through the wide lens and sees what will bring Him the most glory, He wills that not all people be saved.
   
   ​

VI. God ordains all sin and evil and yet He is not the "author of sin." This is shown in the following five points.​

A. God never sins (Deuteronomy 32:3-4).​

1. How do we know that God never sins?
   ​
2. Is the phrase, "God ordains sin," synonymous with "God is sinning?" Why or why not?
   ​

B. God is not the positive cause of sin.​

1. 1God is the ultimate cause of sin, He has ordained to happen and He makes sure that it does.
   ​
2. 2God is not the positive cause of sin, rather He is the negative cause of sin.
   ​
   1. Why does God get credit for when He cause us to do good, but He isn't blamed when He causes us to do evil?
      ​
      
      
      1. God is the positive cause of good. He acts in us to cause us to do good. If He did not act, we, by nature, would never do good (Romans 3:10). Because good deeds are totally dependent on God acting in a positive or active way in our hearts, He gets all of the credit for it.
      ​
      
      
      2. God is the negative cause of sin. He does not put evil desires in us so that we will sin (James 1:13). Rather, God withholds the grace necessary to keep you from sinning, thereby bringing about His desired purpose, which included sin. When God ordains sin, He doesn't make your heart evil so that you will do what He wills. No, He orchestrates all circumstances so that in our flesh, sin will be the most desirable thing and then He withholds the grace that would prevent us from sinning. He simply acts in such a way that He insures that our sinful nature will carry out the sin that He desires. Therefore, while God is the ultimate cause of sin, He is not guilty of sin.
      ​
      
      
      3. A good example of this is the sun. The sun is the positive cause of light, the sun makes light. However, it is also the ultimate cause of darkness. When the earth rotates and is no longer facing the sun, it no longer receives the suns lights. Therefore, the sun is the ultimate cause of darkness, though it is not the positive cause, rather it is the negative cause. The absence of the sun is what creates the darkness, but it would not be right to say that the sun is the morally guilty cause of darkness.
      ​

C. God cannot be blamed for sin.


​

1. Scriptures make it clear that there is no evil in God (Psalm 5:4; 92:15). Therefore, if scripture teaches that God is sovereign over evil, and it does, then this objection should not even be raised. For if the Bible doesn't have a problem with God being in control of sin and yet innocent, neither should we.
   ​

D. God does not approve of sin (Psalm 11:4-6; 34:16; Habakkuk 1:13).​

E. God does not ordain sin for its own sake.​

1. When God ordains sin it is not because He enjoys sin in and of itself, rather He has a greater good in mind. While we have evil intentions in our sin, God is always working for the greatest good (Genesis 50:20).
   ​
2. How can God be in control of sin and bring it about, but not be guilty of sinning?
   ​
   1. If someone came and stabbed you in the stomach out of malice, that would clearly be sin. But if a surgeon cuts your stomach open to remove a tumor, no sin is present. Yet they both have done the same thing, they cut your stomach open with a knife. So what is different? The random attack was done out of malice, but the doctor has good intentions. Now, imagine that the doctor's knife is alive and it is evil and delights in causing you pain. We can see that even though the knife is delighting in cutting you open, the doctor would still not be morally guilty of sin because he is acting for your good.
      ​

VII. Is God more like a surgeon or a fireman?

​

A. Does God bring about sin with good purposes in mind, or does He merely react to it?​

1. We've already shown that the Bible clearly teaches that God is sovereign over sin and is the ultimate cause of sin. He does not merely react to sin and then bring good about. If he did, we could never fully hope in Romans 8:28 because God wouldn't be causing all things to work for our good because he isn't in control of sin. But the verse says that God causes all things to work for good. The reactionary, fireman idea of God does not work.
   ​

​

VIII. Applications.​

A. We can hope in the midst of suffering, even when the suffering is caused by the sin of others. For we know that God is the one bringing it about for our good.​

B. We can rightly honor God as sovereign over all things. He did not give up any part of His sovereignty for the sake of human freedom, even in regards to sin.​

C. We can feel more free to proclaim the gospel in the midst of persecution because we know that God is in control of the persecution we receive.​

D. We can praise God for his infinite wisdom in devising a plan to bring himself the greatest glory possible which included evil.​

E. While we are responsible for our sin and should be repentant, we can still have hope knowing that even when we turn from God, he is at work in our lives.​

F. We can find comfort in the fact that Satan can not thwart God's plans for our lives, rather Satan is often the means by which God fulfills his plan.​

 

[JaimeMan]

John 16:30 (New International Version)

New International Version

(NIV)

30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

 

[Ol Moth]

I beleive our God isn't a God of slavery, so he gave his creatures a free will, so they had the choice to follow him, instead of being puppets. so his angels have free choice imho.
and when Lucifer was proud enough to put himself above God he was threw out of heaven with a third of the angels. so that could be called evil. the choice against God. because God wants voluntary Love and Worship. and no worshipping slaves.
my 5 cents..

 

[California Tim]

I would like to take this time to remind everyone that God creates and controls evil.
Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Thank_you.

Just like I create a shadow by shining a light on an object?