God changed the Sabbath

Soyeong · Aug 2, 2016

seashale76 said:
It isn't really. Acts 15 talks about how the judaizers were not to enforce the law on everyone. Also, Hebrews 10 talks about gathering to worship together. Acts 20 and 1 Corinthians 16 talk about how Christians came together to worship on the first day of the week (i.e. Sunday).

Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

The discussion in Acts 15 was not about whether Gentiles should obey God's commands, but rather it was about whether Gentiles should be required to follow Jewish man-made customs in order to become saved. God's law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and it does not require anyone to become circumcised in order to become saved, but rather it was the customs of Moses that required that, and by rejecting that requirement, they were upholding God's law. We must obey God rather than man, so if God's law had required all Gentiles to become circumcised, then Gentiles should obey God rather than any man who tries to tell them otherwise, but the Jerusalem Council correctly ruled that it does not require that and certainly not for the purpose of becoming saved.

In Acts 20, it is important to keep in mind that for Jews the day started at sundown, so their first day of the week would start on what we would refer to as Saturday evening. Furthermore, the word that is translated as the "first day of the week" more specifically refers to the first interval between two Sabbaths, or to the interval at sundown between Saturday and Sunday. So they met in the evening for a Havdalah service at the closing of the Sabbath, Paul spoke from evening until midnight rather from morning until midnight, and then he left to travel on Sunday morning, so this can not be used to show the starting of a tradition to meet on Sunday mornings.

Kenny'sID · Aug 2, 2016

God changed the day to Sunday not man

Before I comment, is your point simply... it was not changed by Constantine, or that we are to have our Sabbath day of rest on Sunday and not on Saturday?

Soyeong · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
I think that in offering Himself as our rest Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath,

Romans 15:18-19 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

In these verses, fulfilling the gospel does not refer to doing away with it or to keeping it perfectly, but rather it refers to fully teaching obedience to it. So we should likewise understand Messiah's statement in Matthew 5:17 that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it as fully teaching obedience to it, which is precisely what he then proceeded to do in the rest of the chapter. Furthermore, Galatians 5:14 says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it is something that anyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has done, and not something unique to Messiah. Messiah summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so love fulfills the entire law because it demonstrating a full understanding of what the law is about.

Colosians 2: Alive in Christ
…15And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon,or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.…

As one who does not go to church Saturday or Sunday but rather am in His Word as He leads.

I feel that these scriptures in the first two posts of the OP where given to me recently. I firmly believe now that God did change the days to honor the firstfruit of the new creation over the old creation's celebration..

This is the new sabbath and there is another to come. Was, is and is to come

If you take Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as whether it is saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them. However, if we look at the views of the people judging them in Colossians 2:8 and Colossians 2:20-23, we will see that they were teaching human precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, not obedience to God's holy, righteous, and good law. Furthermore, if we look at the broader theme in the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, then it is clear that Colossians were being judge for obeying God's commands as they had been instructed and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man keep them from obeying God.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

This is saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words and fall into the error of lawlessness. In other words, if you interpret Paul as being against anyone obeying God's law to keep the Sabbath, then you have misunderstood him.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Aug 2, 2016

Soyeong said:
Daniel 7:25-26 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

This is not speaking favorably at all about the one who would try to change the times and the law and should actually be a warning against following someone who tries to do that.
.

It doesn't seem that you read the reply to your post.

~Cassia~ said:
The Op has too much scripture from both old and new to ascribe it to making up a theology from verses out of context. If you want to believe that Constantine was responsibile for the change then go ahead and ascribe it to man. But note the first scripture in the OP and it says that the world only tries to change the times but ALL of the rest of the scripture references applies to how He did change it.

That's as far as I got in reading your post as it's the middle of the night here and just got on the pc for a quick look.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Aug 2, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
God changed the day to Sunday not man

Before I comment, is your point simply... it was not changed by Constantine, or that we are to have our Sabbath day of rest on Sunday and not on Saturday?

I'm not advocating any day for rest but that the only rest now is in the Lord.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Aug 2, 2016

.........

Kenny'sID · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
I'm not advocating any day for rest but that the only rest now is in the Lord.

Then you are saying we need no longer keep the Saturday Sabbath commandment?

~Cassia~ said:
I have noticed that no one is addressing the scriptures from OP.

Most of the scripture seems to be your interpretation of something, but until I'm certain of your point, can't comment further.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Aug 2, 2016

Soyeong said:
....

Changing the seasons is not the same thing as changing the times that God has appointed in His law. The Bible talks in a number of places about God's law and appointed times being eternal, which is not something subject to change.

Appointed times like when Jesus arrived. The old covenant changed to the new, the Jewish religion changed to the church age and yet these were from the beginning of God's plan.

Talking about something drawing near or about when something will happen is not at all the same as saying that God changes his eternal law.

The Feast of Firstfruits is a yearly event, so why would it signify a change in a weekly event? Furthermore, why is it then that most Christians don't keep the Feast of Firstfruits? You can celebrate Messiah's resurrection as often or as infrequently as you like, but it is one thing to optionally follow a man-made tradition and another to say that obedience to your tradition removes the need to obey God's command.

I think you answered your own question as to why it's not celebrated because instead we celebrate Resurrection Day

Note that Israel is referred to as church in the OT, so was not born on Pentecost. The Bible prophecies the rebuilty of David's tents (Amos 9:11).

And this is precisely why this thread was started on another forum because the Jews there don't recognise grace.

The Day of the Lord has a specific meaning in Jewish eschatology that refers to the day that he was seeing in his vision, not the day of the week on which he happened to have his vision.

And yet Christian tradition says otherwise

Jesus was referencing this passage:

Jeremiah 6:16-19 Thus says the Lord: “Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ 17 I set watchmen over you, saying, ‘Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We will not pay attention.’ 18 Therefore hear, O nations, and know, O congregation, what will happen to them. 19 Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing disaster upon this people, the fruit of their devices, because they have not paid attention to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it.

Will you walk in the good way where you will find rest for your soul in accordance with God's law or will you reject it in favor of keeping your own traditions? Jesus was very critical of those who set aside the commands of God to follow their own traditions (Mark 7:6-13).

If Jesus says He is the rest then He is the rest. Matthew 11:29
Rest refers to being set free from the toil and burden under the law or religion and also to perfect peace.
Btw He was also critical of those who insisted laws be put above the Lord of the Sabbath

Rishon does not refer to the Sabbath, but to transitioning from the 7th day back to the 1st day.

Rishon is the name for Sunday, the first day of the week

Thank you for addressing the OP

SAAN · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
I think that in offering Himself as our rest Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath,

Colosians 2: Alive in Christ
…15And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon,or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.…

As one who does not go to church Saturday or Sunday but rather am in His Word as He leads.

I feel that these scriptures in the first two posts of the OP where given to me recently. I firmly believe now that God did change the days to honor the firstfruit of the new creation over the old creation's celebration..

This is the new sabbath and there is another to come. Was, is and is to come

IN CONTEXT

Colossians 2:8-17
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Are the commands of God philosophy or empty deceit?
Are the commands of God tradition of men, basic principles of the world?
Are the commands of God not according to Christ?

It is extremely clear the issue in Colossians is, Paul is talking to new converts to the faith that used to be pagans and are now following Christ, so in their pagan society he is telling them NOT to let anyone judge them for keeping the commands of God like new moons, the Sabbath or Feast Days. They are all a shadow of what is to come in Christ.

HE IS NOT saying dont let anyone judge you for breaking the commands of God, like many on here are teaching.

SAAN · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
I'm not advocating any day for rest but that the only rest now is in the Lord.

So you have pretty much canceled out a command of God then.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Aug 2, 2016

SAAN said:
IN CONTEXT

Colossians 2:8-17
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Are the commands of God philosophy or empty deceit?
Are the commands of God tradition of men, basic principles of the world?
Are the commands of God not according to Christ?

It is extremely clear the issue in Colossians is, Paul is talking to new converts to the faith that used to be pagans and are now following Christ, so in their pagan society he is telling them NOT to let anyone judge them for keeping the commands of God like new moons, the Sabbath or Feast Days. They are all a shadow of what is to come in Christ.

HE IS NOT saying dont let anyone judge you for breaking the commands of God, like many on here are teaching.

Colossians 2:8
Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ;

If you can rein in your doctrine to be exclusive to Christ then you will not be taken astray

SAAN · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
Appointed times like when Jesus arrived. The old covenant changed to the new, the Jewish religion changed to the church age and yet these were from the beginning of God's plan.

I think you answered your own question as to why it's not celebrated because instead we celebrate Resurrection Day
And this is precisely why this thread was started on another forum because the Jews there don't recognise grace.
And yet Christian tradition says otherwise

If Jesus says He is the rest then He is the rest. Matthew 11:29
Rest refers to being set free from the toil and burden under the law or religion and also to perfect peace.
Btw He was also critical of those who insisted laws be put above the Lord of the Sabbath
Rishon is the name for Sunday, the first day of the week

Thank you for addressing the OP

Old covenant was written on stone. The blood of animals covers our sins when we repent.

New Covenant written on our heats. The blood of Christ covers our sins when we repent.

Sunday worship is just a tradition that has been passed own, not something biblical. The churches in Rome were the only ones doing Sunday worship back then and the rest of the world was still keeping the Sabbath. The council or Nicea is where they make Sunday mandatory.

rockytopva · Aug 2, 2016

Sunday is the first day of the week.. And this is the day the disciples of Christ would meet...

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. - John 20:19

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. - Acts 20:7

Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. -1 Corinthians 16:2

SAAN · Aug 2, 2016

rockytopva said:
Sunday is the first day of the week.. And this is the day the disciples of Christ would meet...

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. - John 20:19

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. - Acts 20:7

Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. -1 Corinthians 16:2

There is no where in the bible that states Jesus, in his 40 days after the Resurrection, went around starting up Sunday churches.

Acts 20:7

7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

-In regards to Acts 20:7 the fact that Paul met up with them and spoke til midnight shows that Paul showed up when the Sabbath ended on Saturday and spoke with them until midnight. This was a one time example and not a weekly occurrence.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

- There was a famine going on in Jerusalem, so Paul was taking up an offering for them. He might have done this weekly, but this verse was not an example that everyone gathered together for a Sunday morning worship service to collect tithes and offerings.

There is nothing wrong with going to church on Sunday, since there is no command against that, but its just tradition and not something that they were doing in the bible days.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Aug 2, 2016

The point of the thread is that it is not tradition but rather a scripturally documented process that God endorsed. This is not a thread about grace vs law even tho that is what prompted the thread in the first place. In order to keep on topic as a general theology debate it needs to be kept to scripture references that speak about the endurance of God's Word on the Sabbath from old to new testament. As we are all Christians in this area of the forum it is important to keep Christ as the culmination of any thought.

Edit to add --- please let's keep this also to the greater picture that Paul pointed toward

4x4toy · Aug 2, 2016

Luke 23:44 Could this count as a day ? dark and light twice in 24 hrs

Ron Coates · Aug 2, 2016

I believe the only Sabbath in effect today is the Sabbath rest. "8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from His." Hebrews 4:8-10, N.I.V. To me, this is talking about trying to get right standing with God through obeying the law, by our own efforts. Not to be confused with the works of James 2:8. Without Christ, I was doomed, unable to save myself. The law kept God's people in line until Christ came, but no one was ever saved by obeying it. Jesus is the only one to fully obey it. That is why He saves. He paid the price for sin, though He never sinned. He died a sinner's death so He could save us. Thank You, God.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
As an aside from doing His will comes growth

Growth in Christ to maturity

The importance is in growth and not in works at all.

But first one must be born of incorruptable seed or else there is no life to grow because of being dead in sin. 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Corinthians 15:53, 1 Peter 1:4 Human life alone isn't qualified to be One in God, that organic union depends upon the divine life mingled with our human life in faith and in baptism into His death which is the beginning, the elemental that needs to grow with the divine life. Not that the divine life in itself needs growth but that we need to grow into it by the gradual (from glory to glory) reckoning of death to all that is revealed of the old self. Col 2:22-23 He must increase and we must decrease. As His body we can do this because after all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church Ephesians 5:29

However even this growth needs regulation. Our growth is to grow with God Himself increasing in us. What revelation reveals about the natural flesh and soul needs recognizing as being restricted by bringing the natural under the control of the divine. The Christ in us is King. We're in a priestly kingdom, a citizen of the kingdom. It doesn't take any training to be a hippie or a loose person but royal families train for it their whole lives. So, for that, obedience is needed. There's a great experience that follows obedience that's an increase in light and love that is meant to increase further obedience that still furthers growth and developement in grace. The results are in perpetual progress. Bringing the natural under the control of the divine. Yeilding to God light falls on the pathway and creates love. Love suggests obedience. The will, impulsed by love yeilds to the light and on it goes. It's not a work at all but only growth. Unbelief and disobedience impedes growth.

We have so many different character traits that all need regulating in every aspect of life. To be useful to God we have to allow the light to shine upon us to bring us to the Lord's judgement and according to His standards that reveal our true selves and helps us to become true to our new selves.

Without growth, even if you have the divine life, there is no maturity. The life plus the growth gives one maturity. Maturity comes out of growth, which is what the book of Hebrews is all about.

Matthew 25:4 shows the wise virgins as having oil both in in their lamps and in their vessels. The lamp signifies our spirit Proverbs 20:27 and the vessel signifies our soul, our being Romans 9:21,23 Both in our spirit and in our entire being we should be full of the (indwelling) oil, which signifies the Holy Spirit Isa 61:1; Heb 1:9 The more growth the more infilling of the Holy Spirit which is the growth in God.

Matthew 25 also speaks of the slaves talents and their diligence, because functionality depends on diligence. That comes from proper conduct thru co-operation with God. Fellowship and prayer with the Lord co=operates to recieve His enlightenment, and to be dealt with by Him. Slothful people will never contact the Lord regularly, seemingly because they are content in their own dirty diapers that they have deemed (luke)warm to stay in. In order to grow and reach maturity one needs to be diligent.

Growth to maturity demands being filled with the Spirit and to be diligent with yourself to use the ability in maturity to serve the Lord. These two can be seen as the infilling of the Spirit and the outpouring of the Spirit for service.

To live a life in the Spirit is to reach maturity in Christ by the submission of the whole being to allow the HS into every part so as to function as a mature person that Jesus can use.

What that would look like

Maturity, the good ground:
- obedient behavior (flesh under control and submissive to the Holy Spirit)
- sorting gospel from tradition ( mind under the Holy Spirit)
- seeking above all else to please Him and serve others ( human spirit submissive

Personal fellowship, holiness of character:
-intellegence- able to understand things of God
( soul needs to overcome greed)
- emotion- love God and all He loves
(flesh needs to overcome lust)
- will- choosing things in harmony with His will
( human spirit needs to overcome pride)

Righteous conduct, co-operative activity:
-intellegence- moving in harmony with God
(again soul needs to overcome greed)
-emotions- in action
(again flesh needs to overcome lust)
-will- choosing things of God
(again the human spirit needs to overcome pride)

I just wanted to re-address this too. There must be growth to our faith, and the first step of our growth of faith is to stop our own works and rest in God's love, wisdom, and power.

Kenny'sID · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
The point of the thread is that it is not tradition but rather a scripturally documented process that God endorsed. This is not a thread about grace vs law even tho that is what prompted the thread in the first place. In order to keep on topic as a general theology debate it needs to be kept to scripture references that speak about the endurance of God's Word on the Sabbath from old to new testament. As we are all Christians in this area of the forum it is important to keep Christ as the culmination of any thought.

Edit to add --- please let's keep this also to the greater picture that Paul pointed toward

Looks to me like you took a detour there to avoid some unanswered questions.

By "keep on topic" do you mean stop asking those touchy questions?

On the scripture, I didn't see how it proved your points.

SAAN · Aug 2, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
The point of the thread is that it is not tradition but rather a scripturally documented process that God endorsed. This is not a thread about grace vs law even tho that is what prompted the thread in the first place. In order to keep on topic as a general theology debate it needs to be kept to scripture references that speak about the endurance of God's Word on the Sabbath from old to new testament. As we are all Christians in this area of the forum it is important to keep Christ as the culmination of any thought.

Edit to add --- please let's keep this also to the greater picture that Paul pointed toward

God didnt have a documented process to change the day of worship because they were Jews, so Sunday was a regular working day to them. it was not a special day in which they took off to go to church.

Christ is still the center of all thoughts, but the reality is Christ didnt care about Sunday either because it was just a regular day of work in their times. He rose from the grave right after the Sabbath ended on Saturday (6-8pm ish), so a few hours into Sunday morning would have been considered the first day of the week, which would have been considered but does not equal Sunday morning at dawn.

As much as I wanted to believe Sunday worship was something biblical, there just arent many examples to justify it outside of using 2-3 verses that are of different contexts.

The problem with Saturday vs Sunday is when one crowd tries to condemn the other to hell over a day of worship.

God changed the Sabbath

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