God built the universe from chaos and evil

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Yahweh's Plan, Creation, Purpose or Salvation in Jesus"

There's no contradiction at all, ever , in Yahweh's Plan, Creation, Purpose and Salvation in Jesus.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

(Of course I imagine the author Genesis had God creating through words, because God was modeled on human kings.)

Yahweh is self-existent, uncreated, always forever has been , is, and will be.

Yahweh (God) is NOT modeled on anything human. (except idolatry is, which is directly sin transgressing His instructions)

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I can explain why the water actually was viewed as evil. On each day of creation there is a refrain "and God saw that it was good" - each day that is except the day that God created the sky to divide the waters below from the waters above. That is because the waters symbolized evil, and the author felt it was inappropriate to write "and God saw that it was good" even though it would have been more poetic to do that. (That point was made by the Rendsburg in the lectures I have been watching.)
​

I disagree. A chaotic field is not evil, but becomes a good when it is ordered and tilled.
The Serpent of Chaos, once cut into pieces and these ordered into the world, becomes good. Goodness was present in the chaos, just potentially. It was not therefore evil. Ommiting "it was good", does not mean "it was evil", just that it may be partly still in chaos - from which goodness, like fish for instance, might still be brought forth.
I think Rendsburgh is having difficulty forgetting his cultural background here, and not reading it as the culture would have. A broad Dualism simply did not exist at that stage, although we could argue this is a later version under the pen of a redactor when more apparent dualism had entered Semitic thought.

 

[Eloy Craft]

This also solves the problem of evil, because Christians can argue that God did not create the evil and chaos -

Cloudyday2, do you mean to imply that evil has no beginning and is uncreated like God? That would make evil one in being with God. Always been and uncreated self subsistent existence. Is that something resolved or am I not understanding what you mean?

 

[cloudyday2]

Cloudyday2, do you mean to imply that evil has no beginning and is uncreated like God? That would make evil one in being with God. Always been and uncreated self subsistent existence. Is that something resolved or am I not understanding what you mean?

It's not clear from Genesis 1 what the author intended.

The main advantage of preexisting evil is that God is no longer necessarily the creator of that evil. This solves the problem of evil. (Of course Genesis 1 is also compatible with the hypothesis that God created the evil and chaos as a cosmological blunder and then He went on to create the good stuff later.)

 

[cloudyday2]

There's no contradiction at all, ever , in Yahweh's Plan, Creation, Purpose and Salvation in Jesus.

Earlier you said:
"the sources are not in line with Scripture nor with Yahweh's Plan, Creation, Purpose or Salvation in Jesus"

That's the only reason I'm asking. It sounded like you saw some theological problem with this idea that chaos and evil were preexisting.

 

[cloudyday2]

I disagree. A chaotic field is not evil, but becomes a good when it is ordered and tilled.
The Serpent of Chaos, once cut into pieces and these ordered into the world, becomes good. Goodness was present in the chaos, just potentially. It was not therefore evil. Ommiting "it was good", does not mean "it was evil", just that it may be partly still in chaos - from which goodness, like fish for instance, might still be brought forth.
I think Rendsburgh is having difficulty forgetting his cultural background here, and not reading it as the culture would have. A broad Dualism simply did not exist at that stage, although we could argue this is a later version under the pen of a redactor when more apparent dualism had entered Semitic thought.

Hmmm. I really think that to an ancient person chaos and evil were equivalent. Chaos brought earthquakes, droughts, floods, looting barbarians, etc. The reason agriculture thrived in areas with river water and very little rain water is that this reduced chaos.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's the only reason I'm asking. It sounded like you saw some theological problem with this idea that chaos and evil were preexisting.

The title of the thread, your sources, and your ideas posted in the thread are signs of unbelief continuing, and all are clear rejection of God's Word.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Hmmm. I really think that to an ancient person chaos and evil were equivalent. Chaos brought earthquakes, droughts, floods, looting barbarians, etc. The reason agriculture thrived in areas with river water and very little rain water is that this reduced chaos.

Not really true. Set was present on the Barque of Ra, opposing Apothis on the journey through the night. Likewise Set, a god of desert chaos, was one of the patrons of Egypt, even the patron of Pharoahs (Seti, for instance).

We see a similar instance in Dionyseus, who was a god of chaos, of intoxication, bearing frenzied followers. Yet also conceived as a god of transformation.

The idea of Good vs Evil is our inherent Christian bias. Pagan gods were far more ambivalent, and what was seen as negative was not irredeemable therefore. The Semitic peoples spoke of the lands of the Baalim, well watered lands. This was either the abode of dangerous entities if without the sacred space, or was a well tilled paradise when in covenant with its lord (the baal). You see this in Eden with its flaming sword Angel keeping man in the 'chaos' outside it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So what did he have to say about "ex nihilo"?

Conrad Hyers doesn't think that Genesis 1 is concerned about either the concept of "Creation out of Nothing" or of "Creation out of Something." Rather, he thinks the writer of this first chapter ignores both of these concepts and focuses upon God's acts of bringing order out of a morally neutral chaos, all of which assumes that God is prior to the existence of cosmic material as we think of it, and all of which reverses the sequence of creation as compared to other cosmogonies of the ancient world where the universe comes first and the gods spring forth from some 'cosmic egg' or from some other developmental phenomenon.

So, whether the material by which God created the Heavens and the Earth was brought out of nothing, or was instead somehow made out of God's own essence through His own will and power, isn't addressed, even if the former of these seems to be implied in texts like those of 2 Maccabees 7:8 or Hebrews 11:1-3.

 

[apogee]

Chaos, Evil and Darkness are not 'things' that can be created, they are the 'absence of things' (Order, Virtue and Light).

 

[Eloy Craft]

It's not clear from Genesis 1 what the author intended.

The main advantage of preexisting evil is that God is no longer necessarily the creator of that evil. This solves the problem of evil. (Of course Genesis 1 is also compatible with the hypothesis that God created the evil and chaos as a cosmological blunder and then He went on to create the good stuff later.)

There isn't a theological problem with evil. God permits it as a means to bring about His plan. God brought Salvation by use of evil works of Satan and men. True then true now.

 

[Uber Genius]

Apparently the best translations of Genesis 1 show God creating the universe from preexisting evil and chaos instead of from nothing

This premise is false. 7 conservative (exegetical) inferences on the proper interpretation of Gen 1 and NONE espouse your view.

Ex nihilo has been the majority view for the entirety of the Church.

Please include a quote and references so we can engage the authors premises and arguments.