God and Time

[Moral Orel]

I've been thinking about what it means for God to create time itself, and it seems to mean strange things, so I thought I would share my thoughts and see what other people think.

First, if time doesn't exist, then time can't pass. This seems self evident, but it is important to think about.

Second, without the passage of time words like "before" and "after" are nonsense.

So from this it seems that anything that happens while time doesn't exist must happen simultaneously. Now given the concept of God, I don't think this is anything that is too hard for him. Of course he can do an infinite number of things and think an infinite number of thoughts all simultaneously, so don't think this is supposed to be a disproof of his existence.

So I'll put it into argument form given these premises.

1. Time doesn't pass until time exists
2. We measure age based on the amount of time that has passed.
3. No time passed until God created time.
4. God's age is equal to the amount of time that has passed since time was created.

So wether you believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old, or you believe that the universe is 6000 years old, we all pretty much agree that time began to exist at the onset of creation. I believe the theory of general relativity and the big bang theory state this, and that is why it is so hard (impossible?) to see what is beyond that threshold.

But it seems that without time, "eternity" is a nonsense word just like "before" and "after". Eternity needs to extend infinitely backwards in time in order for it to make sense (and infinitely forwards). So to say that God is eternal, but to say that time is not, seems like nonsense to me.

So what explanation for this could there be? Thoughts?

 

[Winken]

I've been thinking about what it means for God to create time itself, and it seems to mean strange things, so I thought I would share my thoughts and see what other people think.

Before the beginning of space and time, God. At the beginning of space and time God created heaven and the earth. The earth, at the beginning, was without form, and void. God created Adam & Eve and placed them in the Garden. They lived in perfection in Divine Protection. They did not exist before the creation.

God did it, that settles it, no matter when it was.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've been thinking about what it means for God to create time itself, and it seems to mean strange things, so I thought I would share my thoughts and see what other people think.

First, if time doesn't exist, then time can't pass. This seems self evident, but it is important to think about.

Second, without the passage of time words like "before" and "after" are nonsense.

So from this it seems that anything that happens while time doesn't exist must happen simultaneously. Now given the concept of God, I don't think this is anything that is too hard for him. Of course he can do an infinite number of things and think an infinite number of thoughts all simultaneously, so don't think this is supposed to be a disproof of his existence.

So I'll put it into argument form given these premises.

1. Time doesn't pass until time exists
2. We measure age based on the amount of time that has passed.
3. No time passed until God created time.
4. God's age is equal to the amount of time that has passed since time was created.

So wether you believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old, or you believe that the universe is 6000 years old, we all pretty much agree that time began to exist at the onset of creation. I believe the theory of general relativity and the big bang theory state this, and that is why it is so hard (impossible?) to see what is beyond that threshold.

But it seems that without time, "eternity" is a nonsense word just like "before" and "after". Eternity needs to extend infinitely backwards in time in order for it to make sense (and infinitely forwards). So to say that God is eternal, but to say that time is not, seems like nonsense to me.

So what explanation for this could there be? Thoughts?

Well...God didn't tell Moses that His name is, "I was what I was," or " I'll be what I'll be."

 

[Moral Orel]

The earth, at the beginning, was without form, and void. God created Adam & Eve and placed them in the Garden. They lived in perfection in Divine Protection. They did not exist before the creation.

God did it, that settles it, no matter when it was.

I never said he didn't do these things. Those aren't the things in question. I'm not even questioning whether God made time exist, I'll take that as a given. I want to know what it means for time to come into existence.

Before the beginning of space and time, God.

How is there something before time? If time started at 12pm, 4000bc, how do you say, "one minute before that"? You can't count backwards in time if time doesn't exist.

 

[Moral Orel]

Well...God didn't tell Moses that His name is, "I was what I was," or " I'll be what I'll be."

Well that doesn't answer anything. I get that the idea is that he always existed. But "always" is a temporal term too. So without time existing, "always" is nonsense. There can't be a time before time existed.

 

[Near]

I don't believe we know enough about time, and it's relation to matter to give a really good answer to the question. If we can't do that, how can we come to understand time and it's relation to God, who is immaterial? I guess we'll just come up with some "ideas", won't we?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Science changes its mind every 5 minutes. That much we know for sure.

 

[Chriliman]

I've been thinking about what it means for God to create time itself, and it seems to mean strange things, so I thought I would share my thoughts and see what other people think.

First, if time doesn't exist, then time can't pass. This seems self evident, but it is important to think about.

Second, without the passage of time words like "before" and "after" are nonsense.

So from this it seems that anything that happens while time doesn't exist must happen simultaneously. Now given the concept of God, I don't think this is anything that is too hard for him. Of course he can do an infinite number of things and think an infinite number of thoughts all simultaneously, so don't think this is supposed to be a disproof of his existence.

So I'll put it into argument form given these premises.

1. Time doesn't pass until time exists
2. We measure age based on the amount of time that has passed.
3. No time passed until God created time.
4. God's age is equal to the amount of time that has passed since time was created.

So wether you believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old, or you believe that the universe is 6000 years old, we all pretty much agree that time began to exist at the onset of creation. I believe the theory of general relativity and the big bang theory state this, and that is why it is so hard (impossible?) to see what is beyond that threshold.

But it seems that without time, "eternity" is a nonsense word just like "before" and "after". Eternity needs to extend infinitely backwards in time in order for it to make sense (and infinitely forwards). So to say that God is eternal, but to say that time is not, seems like nonsense to me.

So what explanation for this could there be? Thoughts?

Great thoughts! I believe God is eternal because He has no beginning and no end, he's infinitely timeless. However, we are not eternal in that way because we have a beginning, but no end, meaning He brought us into existence in order for us to exist forever, either with Him or separate from Him. I can't imagine what existence is, separate from God, I suppose unending anguish. Obviously forever with God is unending perfect life, sounds good to me

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well that doesn't answer anything. I get that the idea is that he always existed. But "always" is a temporal term too. So without time existing, "always" is nonsense. There can't be a time before time existed.

I don't think the tetragrammaton necessarily implies temporality; God can be completely "other," as a being outside of our space-time dimensions.

 

[juvenissun]

I've been thinking about what it means for God to create time itself, and it seems to mean strange things, so I thought I would share my thoughts and see what other people think.

First, if time doesn't exist, then time can't pass. This seems self evident, but it is important to think about.

Second, without the passage of time words like "before" and "after" are nonsense.

So from this it seems that anything that happens while time doesn't exist must happen simultaneously. Now given the concept of God, I don't think this is anything that is too hard for him. Of course he can do an infinite number of things and think an infinite number of thoughts all simultaneously, so don't think this is supposed to be a disproof of his existence.

So I'll put it into argument form given these premises.

1. Time doesn't pass until time exists
2. We measure age based on the amount of time that has passed.
3. No time passed until God created time.
4. God's age is equal to the amount of time that has passed since time was created.

So wether you believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old, or you believe that the universe is 6000 years old, we all pretty much agree that time began to exist at the onset of creation. I believe the theory of general relativity and the big bang theory state this, and that is why it is so hard (impossible?) to see what is beyond that threshold.

But it seems that without time, "eternity" is a nonsense word just like "before" and "after". Eternity needs to extend infinitely backwards in time in order for it to make sense (and infinitely forwards). So to say that God is eternal, but to say that time is not, seems like nonsense to me.

So what explanation for this could there be? Thoughts?

God creates time.
The beginning of time is at the hand of God.
Time is a space. And the space has no edge. God creates it all at once.
So time is "eternal" to other God's creature.

What is wrong with it?

 

[juvenissun]

I never said he didn't do these things. Those aren't the things in question. I'm not even questioning whether God made time exist, I'll take that as a given. I want to know what it means for time to come into existence.

How is there something before time? If time started at 12pm, 4000bc, how do you say, "one minute before that"? You can't count backwards in time if time doesn't exist.

No time, no space, no anything we ever know. (e.g. no energy)
What was there? No. What IS there? (where?)
God.

Good idea?

 

[elopez]

First, if time doesn't exist, then time can't pass. This seems self evident, but it is important to think about.

This entirely depends on how you're defining "time." Which is something you did not cover. So, what is time? Time can reference many things and to better understand your argument, I think it would help.

Second, without the passage of time words like "before" and "after" are nonsense.

Again this depends on the definition of time. Even if time exists concepts like "before" may still be nonsense.

So from this it seems that anything that happens while time doesn't exist must happen simultaneously.

If time does not exist, everything is static. There must be time for there to be movement. There must be time for change to occur.

Now given the concept of God, I don't think this is anything that is too hard for him. Of course he can do an infinite number of things and think an infinite number of thoughts all simultaneously, so don't think this is supposed to be a disproof of his existence.

Saying God can think implies that He is within time too. Again, if there is movement there is time. If there is constant change, there is time. An "infinite number of thoughts simultaneously" implies change and movement, both of which imply time.

Do you think God's relation to time is inclusive (in time) or exclusive (outside time)? Maybe both?

So I'll put it into argument form given these premises.

1. Time doesn't pass until time exists
2. We measure age based on the amount of time that has passed.
3. No time passed until God created time.
4. God's age is equal to the amount of time that has passed since time was created.

1 seems alright but again I'd be more clear on what exactly you mean by time. 2 seems alright, though aging is highly dependent on genes too. I personally would agree with 3.

Now, is 4 the conclusion, or just another premise? The idea of "God's age" again implies a temporal God who is affected by time. I mean you're saying that God is either 13.7 billion or 6,000 years old. So that would beg the question if God had existed without time?

So wether you believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old, or you believe that the universe is 6000 years old, we all pretty much agree that time began to exist at the onset of creation. I believe the theory of general relativity and the big bang theory state this, and that is why it is so hard (impossible?) to see what is beyond that threshold.

Yet depending on which you think the age of the universe is, depends on which on you think how old God is? I would say most think time began, but if God created time, He would have existed without time. If God existed without time, time does not affect Him and age would not apply.

But it seems that without time, "eternity" is a nonsense word just like "before" and "after". Eternity needs to extend infinitely backwards in time in order for it to make sense (and infinitely forwards). So to say that God is eternal, but to say that time is not, seems like nonsense to me

Without time there is no change, no movement. How are you defining "eternity"? Eternity generally means no beginning and no end, which itself implies God has no age. If time began to exist, either God existed without it or not. If He did, then He existed in a timeless, eternal state.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Without time there is no change, no movement. How are you defining "eternity"? Eternity generally means no beginning and no end, which itself implies God has no age. If time began to exist, either God existed without it or not. If He did, then He existed in a timeless, eternal state.

If that is correct, then following from what you have stated above, God would not have been able to initiate the creation of the universe. He would have no time to do so.

 

[elopez]

If that is correct, then following from what you have stated above, God would not have been able to initiate the creation of the universe. He would have no time to do so.

God’s causing the universe and the universe’s coming into being are simultaneous. Being without movement only implies that, not that there could be no movement at all.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God’s causing the universe and the universe’s coming into being are simultaneous. Being without movement only implies that, not that there could be no movement at all.

Simultaneous? Then how do you know which caused which? Perhaps they both came into being separately but simultaneously.

 

[Moral Orel]

This entirely depends on how you're defining "time." Which is something you did not cover. So, what is time? Time can reference many things and to better understand your argument, I think it would help.

Definition: the period between two events or during which something exists, happens, or acts
Now there is the problem of relativity with that, as I have talked a bit about spacetime and the big bang theory and how it relates to the argument, but in general that would be the definition.

Again this depends on the definition of time. Even if time exists concepts like "before" may still be nonsense.

How so? Time orders things by past, present, and future. What definition of time does not do this?

Saying God can think implies that He is within time too. Again, if there is movement there is time. If there is constant change, there is time. An "infinite number of thoughts simultaneously" implies change and movement, both of which imply time.

Do you think God's relation to time is inclusive (in time) or exclusive (outside time)? Maybe both?

Well the discussion is about what it means for God to be outside time. If time didn't exist at some point, then he is outside of it. He has to be inside of time at least sometimes (pun totally intended) in order for him to interact with us. Just like he has to have a physical component to interact with nature at times. So it seems like he is both.

2 seems alright, though aging is highly dependent on genes too.

It isn't dependent on genes, you can age a rock as well. Now age usually means deterioration, that's how you tell the age of the rock, but in this case we'll of course put God beyond the problem of deterioration and define age as just the amount of time that has passed.

Now, is 4 the conclusion, or just another premise? The idea of "God's age" again implies a temporal God who is affected by time. I mean you're saying that God is either 13.7 billion or 6,000 years old. So that would beg the question if God had existed without time?

Number 4 is the conclusion and question. I don't personally think that God would have an age like that, but following from the idea that God created time at some point seems to lead there. I don't mean to prove that God is a certain age, I mean to start a discussion about what else could be to explain this paradoxical phenomena.

Yet depending on which you think the age of the universe is, depends on which on you think how old God is? I would say most think time began, but if God created time, He would have existed without time. If God existed without time, time does not affect Him and age would not apply.

You're right, time wouldn't affect God while it doesn't exist. But since age is a measurement of time passing, we can start measuring God's age at the start of time. Anything before that doesn't matter. It can't be eternal because it doesn't stretch at all, it must be like a point in the absence of time.

Without time there is no change, no movement. How are you defining "eternity"? Eternity generally means no beginning and no end, which itself implies God has no age. If time began to exist, either God existed without it or not. If He did, then He existed in a timeless, eternal state.

Eternity seems to be the problem. Talk about eternity however you like, I want to find the answers involving this. Most often, eternity is defined as stretching infinitely into the past and future with no beginning or end, but that doesn't work unless time exists.

Now again, if time didn't exist until God created it, then the point in time he created time is simultaneous with everything that "preceded" its inception.

 

[elopez]

Simultaneous? Then how do you know which caused which? Perhaps they both came into being separately but simultaneously.

Well under the impression of God, He existed without the universe and time. Then the universe and time exists.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well under the impression of God, He existed without the universe and time. Then the universe and time exists.

So there is God and no universe and no time at time 1, and then there is God and the universe and time at time 2. That seems a tad problematic, no?

 

[Moral Orel]

Well under the impression of God, He existed without the universe and time. Then the universe and time exists.

So there is God and no universe and no time at time 1, and then there is God and the universe and time at time 2. That seems a tad problematic, no?

Exactly, how do you have one thing then another thing. They can't go in order without time.
What else can't exist without time? Words. You can't say a word until time exists because you have to order the word from letter to letter to letter. So until time existed, God wouldn't be able to utter the phrase "let there be light". Which word comes first? Which word comes last?

Personally I think the solution lies in the idea that more than just God is eternal. Perhaps space and time are eternal as well. Think about what God is in their individual parts, intelligent, benevolent, powerful, etc. So these concepts are eternal as well, otherwise God would have needed to develop and design these concepts and then applied them to himself.

 

[elopez]

Definition: the period between two events or during which something exists, happens, or acts
Now there is the problem of relativity with that, as I have talked a bit about spacetime and the big bang theory and how it relates to the argument, but in general that would be the definition.

Well time is relative. There are many aspects of time to be considered so to say it's one thing or "this and that" is a mistake I believe.

How so? Time orders things by past, present, and future. What definition of time does not do this?

"Before" is just a term used by us, time would still exist in the absence of such a term. Time is real. I think. And that does include a tenseless view of time.

Well the discussion is about what it means for God to be outside time. If time didn't exist at some point, then he is outside of it. He has to be inside of time at least sometimes (pun totally intended) in order for him to interact with us. Just like he has to have a physical component to interact with nature at times. So it seems like he is both.

Atemporality suggests no change. No movement. I too would agree God is both temporal and atemporal.

It isn't dependent on genes, you can age a rock as well. Now age usually means deterioration, that's how you tell the age of the rock, but in this case we'll of course put God beyond the problem of deterioration and define age as just the amount of time that has passed.

Aging is highly based on genes. Im not saying it's not based on time either, I'm just stating it's not entirely true aging is wholly based on time. Also, you weren't mentioning the age of a rock.

I think that definition of "age" is superficial as age also is relevant to physcial appearance. Even with a rock.

Number 4 is the conclusion and question. I don't personally think that God would have an age like that, but following from the idea that God created time at some point seems to lead there. I don't mean to prove that God is a certain age, I mean to start a discussion about what else could be to explain this paradoxical phenomena.

This is where I disagree. I don't see how a beginning of time could conclude God has an age. I don't see how the conclusion follows from the premises. I think there is a general disconnect between them.

You're right, time wouldn't affect God while it doesn't exist. But since age is a measurement of time passing, we can start measuring God's age at the start of time. Anything before that doesn't matter. It can't be eternal because it doesn't stretch at all, it must be like a point in the absence of time.

Age has more significance than just being related to time. And how would time be such a force as to affect God once it exists? He created it. I think God can interact with us while not being in time Himself.

If we were to give God an age starting at the beginning of the universe, it still wouldn't reflect any true "age." God still exists without time. And that does matter.

Eternity seems to be the problem. Talk about eternity however you like, I want to find the answers involving this. Most often, eternity is defined as stretching infinitely into the past and future with no beginning or end, but that doesn't work unless time exists.

Well if eternity is no beginning or end, obviously time would no need to exist..indeed it would not exist in an eternal state. Time is unrelated to eternity.

Now again, if time didn't exist until God created it, then the point in time he created time is simultaneous with everything that "preceded" its inception.

I am not even sure what this means. The moment of creation has to vary greatly from that which existed without it. Which is God.