god and time

[elman]

Sure, if words don´t have meaning, "before", "prior to" and "beginning" could be atemporal terms.
And colours can be heard.
And all sort of nonsense can be expressed and must be considered possible.

How many times in history has someone said that is not possible when in fact it was? The expression of theories that may or may not be possible is not always nonsense.

 

[quatona]

How many times in history has someone said that is not possible when in fact it was?

Often. And this is some sort of reason not to investigate the plausibility of claims anymore, and to accept and seriously consider the most absurd abuse of words possibly meaningful?

The expression of theories that may or may not be possible is not always nonsense.

I´m far from discussing theories. For the time being I am just pointing out that "before" etc. are words the very meaning of which is to signify a temporal relation. There is and never has been another meaning to these words. Now you tell me, it might be meaningful in an atemporal way. This certainly would require a thorough redefinition. Now, I have no problems with following redefinitions for the sake of the argument, but they have at least to be presented.
"This word may have a different meaning. I have no clue what it might mean, but we cannot assume that it means what it means." is putting things in the realm of nonsense.
"I believe in God" might, in a transcendental understanding, actually mean "I do not believe in God". You think that´s impossible? How many times in history has someone said that is not possible when in fact it was?
I expect the persons using certain words to have an idea as to what they mean. Else the use of these words is plain nonsense.
So tell me the non-temporal meaning of "before the beginning", and we might have a fruitful conversation.

 

[elman]

Often. And this is some sort of reason not to investigate the plausibility of claims anymore, and to accept and seriously consider the most absurd abuse of words possibly meaningful?


I´m far from discussing theories. For the time being I am just pointing out that "before" etc. are words the very meaning of which is to signify a temporal relation. There is and never has been another meaning to these words. Now you tell me, it might be meaningful in an atemporal way. This certainly would require a thorough redefinition. Now, I have no problems with following redefinitions for the sake of the argument, but they have at least to be presented.
"This word may have a different meaning. I have no clue what it might mean, but we cannot assume that it means what it means." is putting things in the realm of nonsense.
"I believe in God" might, in a transcendental understanding, actually mean "I do not believe in God". You think that´s impossible? How many times in history has someone said that is not possible when in fact it was?
I expect the persons using certain words to have an idea as to what they mean. Else the use of these words is plain nonsense.
So tell me the non-temporal meaning of "before the beginning", and we might have a fruitful conversation.

We don't have words or language that allow us to discuss something outside of time. We can only use the words and language we have. The issue was not "before the beginning". The issue was before the beginning of time.

 

[quatona]

We don't have words or language that allow us to discuss something outside of time.

We don´t and can´t even have the concepts. Therefore I refuse to discuss hypothetical things outside logic.

We can only use the words and language we have.

Yes, and it would be a good idea to limit the use of the words to realms in which they are meaningful and the description of which they are meant to be a means of.

The issue was not "before the beginning". The issue was before the beginning of time.

Which makes it even worse. Pure nonsense.

 

[Telephone]

See, there you go. Assuming one has control of his thoughts: this pretty much takes care of the whole notion of God as source of damnation or salvation.

Haven't got a clue what this means ??

Who is the 'his' you refer to ?

What are you talking about ???

 

[Telephone]

"I believe in God" might, in a transcendental understanding, actually mean "I do not believe in God". You think that´s impossible? How many times in history has someone said that is not possible when in fact it was?

 

[Telephone]

If there is a beginning of time, then before would be prior to that beginning of time.

Wonderful semantic religious agenda driven nonsense.


Thank you, that made me laugh !!

 

[Telephone]

The issue was before the beginning of time.

'before' (in it's temporal sense) means 'during a period of time preceding and event, so how is there a 'before' without or 'outside' of time ?

Does the concept even have meaning ?

Now be honest here, to yourself at least, is this really just semantic nonesense put forward as some kind of genuine philosophical view to support the notion of a god you have been raised to believe in, a view when challenged is defended with nothing more than 'we cannot understand this concept'.

 

[elman]

'before' (in it's temporal sense) means 'during a period of time preceding and event, so how is there a 'before' without or 'outside' of time ?

Does the concept even have meaning ?

Now be honest here, to yourself at least, is this really just semantic nonesense put forward as some kind of genuine philosophical view to support the notion of a god you have been raised to believe in, a view when challenged is defended with nothing more than 'we cannot understand this concept'.

Reality is simply not limited to what we can understand. It is not a valid defense to a theory that it must be untrue because I cannot understand it. Some people by the way are not raised to believe in God but chose to believe in God anyway. Using words we have available to us to describe what we are searching to describe, but being unable to describe, is not a nonsense proceedure. This proceedure has preceeded all great scientific discoveries.

 

[elman]

Wonderful semantic religious agenda driven nonsense.


Thank you, that made me laugh !!

Is the theory that time is relative also nonsense?

 

[elman]

We don´t and can´t even have the concepts. Therefore I refuse to discuss hypothetical things outside logic.


Yes, and it would be a good idea to limit the use of the words to realms in which they are meaningful and the description of which they are meant to be a means of.


Which makes it even worse. Pure nonsense.

And how do you know it is nonsense?

 

[quatona]

And how do you know it is nonsense?

The same way I know "blue is yellow, and both sound like a violin" is nonsense.

 

[elman]

The same way I know "blue is yellow, and both sound like a violin" is nonsense.

A color making a sound is nonsense. The possibility of something being not subject to time is not nonsense. The ideas and use of words is not similar.

 

[quatona]

A color making a sound is nonsense. The possibility of something being not subject to time is not nonsense. The ideas and use of words is not similar.

We were talking about the wording "before the beginning of time", and it´s nonsense in the same way as my example was nonsense.

 

[elman]

We were talking about the wording "before the beginning of time", and it´s nonsense in the same way as my example was nonsense.

Ok if I say outside the influence of time would that make you happier?

 

[Blackmarch]

what time is it for god? he knows the future, therefore he knew it in the past and could act to best forfill his whishes then and for the future, so is it always "now" for god? if so does that makes him a time traveller, even though time for him is errevellant, and as he is everywhere he doesnt have to travel.

the word now doesnt seem a big enough word - anyone know a better one

after youve read this thread think back to when you first saw the link - to god is that still "now" ?- is he always in the moment?

ive probably explained myself poorly, soz for that

There is not enough info on such to come to any decent conclusion... We don't know how much heaven's time interacts with this universe's time (if at all, which is likely), or how siimlar it is. Or if heaven is part of this universe or seperate.

 

[Telephone]

Reality is simply not limited to what we can understand.

Indeed, there are things we do not as yet understand and may never understand.

It is not a valid defense to a theory that it must be untrue because I cannot understand it.

No, the fact that you do not understand a theory does not invalidate it.

Some people by the way are not raised to believe in God but chose to believe in God anyway.

Yes you are correct, but I would say the overwhelming majority of religious devotees do so out of parental and cultural influence.

Using words we have available to us to describe what we are searching to describe, but being unable to describe, is not a nonsense proceedure. This proceedure has preceeded all great scientific discoveries.

This is a wondeful piece of linguistic diffusion, but the point remains that your notion of "before time" in nonsensical.

 

[Telephone]

Is the theory that time is relative also nonsense?

No, just your notion that there was a period of time before time.

 

[Blackmarch]

No, just your notion that there was a period of time before time.

not necessarily... depending on what's found in multiunverse theory (including universe formation and etc) and some other funky theories floating around in physics- if they find anything supporting them.

 

[elman]

No, just your notion that there was a period of time before time.

I did not say there was a period of time before time so your criticism is nonsense. I did theorize that something such as God could exist and be unrelated to time and exist without time existing.