God and the flood

[HitchSlap]

Eight, not six.

The question does not pertain to our discussion.

Yep, eight.

You brought it up free moral agents. I was just pointing out the absurdity of the claim.

Carry on.

 

[Davian]

I say yes.

"Deserved" implies that they committed an act so as to rightfully earn such a consequence. What act did those hypothetical fetuses commit to deserve having their short lives extinguished? Or are we still with your theology holding one responsible for things beyond one's control?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

The Flood was probably local, for two big reasons:
1. The ancient accounts of the deluge are all in or near the Middle East. From Greece to China, they are all similar.
2. In Psalms I believe, David makes a very strong implication that he did not take Noah's Flood literally, but actually as local himself

From an assumption that it was local, God was resetting the order there to make way for another which would suffice for the revelations to come.

A thing to understand is that, by the very ancient interpretation, Yahweh was essentially the wind. You say His name every time you breathe in and out, and so this Spirit did all things through the air.
In which case, God shifted the winds from all the corners of the earth, focusing all storms on the East by which all the rain fell.

In fact, the Mediterranean Sea may have come from this, by which Eden sank into being that it is located in the Bible by many of the rivers which run through to it.

 

[anonymous person]

"Deserved" implies that they committed an act so as to rightfully earn such a consequence. What act did those hypothetical fetuses commit to deserve having their short lives extinguished? Or are we still with your theology holding one responsible for things beyond one's control?

I do not accept your claim that the term deserved implies that they committed an act so as to rightfully earn such a consequence.

 

[anonymous person]

No. The fact that you try to escape the discussion you had in the other thread by creating a new thread doesn´t mean I have to do the work for you.
You can respond over there or you can respond here.




(Also accepting the hypothetical that humans are free moral agents): Irrelevant. Noone forced God to create free moral agents in the knowledge that he would have to destroy, harm and send them to eternal suffering for a "greater good". Omnimax God could have created that "greater good" right away.
On another note, God could have created only those "free agents" who would make use of their "free agency" in a way that wouldn´t make them an obstacle to the "greater good".





See above. You posted your claims; you complained that some people moved the goalposts; you didn´t respond to the posts that addressed your claims; then you escaped.

I will go back through the other thread and try and backtrack to where you started arguing for a position or point relative to our discussion and then follow it through to its end and compile them into one, review it, meditate on it, and attempt a worthy response when I have the time. I do not know how long this will take.

 

[anonymous person]

I need to ask you which attributes you have in mind?

Most theists agree that God is (in Ramanuja's words) the “supreme self” or person—omniscient, omnipotent, and all good.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concepts-god/

The above is not exhaustive.

 

[Davian]

I do not accept your claim that the term deserved implies that they committed an act so as to rightfully earn such a consequence.

My dictionary sez:

deserved |dəˈzərvd| adjective
- rightfully earned because of something done or qualities shown; merited: a deserved standing ovation. a deserved victory.

In what way does your definition differ?

 

[anonymous person]

Which brings up the question: How exactly was there a need for God to create physical beings, in the first place?

God's desire to create, not from some lack or need, but because He wanted to create.

As you said in a post in the other thread (paraphrased): You think that an almighty and omniscient God was unable to create such a method? Or to create physical existence in a way that wouldn´t tie its end to suffering and pain? God couldn´t have switched them off without causing them any pain by a snip of his fingers? He needed to create a flood to end their lives? That doesn´t seem to make much sense.

If God's sole purpose in creating the world was to make creatures who would never experience pain or death, then these creatures would never have experienced pain and death.

Sure God could have created a world wherein the creatures He made never knew pain or suffering.

He chose to create a different world. He chose to create a world wherein His creatures would experience pain and suffering along with pleasure and love, and perseverance and patience and all of the other virtues that are only cultivated through trial and moral exercise.

quatona, you need to look into why God created what He did. What the Bible says were His purposes.

Do not think for one moment that God's intentions in creating the world was to just make it a playpen for robots.

So God created a problem so that there could be the "greater good" of a solution for this problem?

God created free moral agents (angels first), some of which rebelled against Him and started messing stuff up.

 

[anonymous person]

My dictionary sez:

deserved |dəˈzərvd| adjective
- rightfully earned because of something done or qualities shown; merited: a deserved standing ovation. a deserved victory.

In what way does your definition differ?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deserve

 

[Davian]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deserve

deserved [dih-zurvd] adjective
1. justly or rightly earned; merited:

"Earned", a verb, implies an action; What act do you feel those hypothetical fetuses did to earn or merit having their short lives extinguished?

 

[HitchSlap]

So god created. Then got real angry at what he created. Then destroyed everything he created, save eight.
But this is ok, since, you know, god.

Sound about right so far?

 

[Davian]

The Flood was probably local, for two big reasons:
1. The ancient accounts of the deluge are all in or near the Middle East. From Greece to China, they are all similar.
2. In Psalms I believe, David makes a very strong implication that he did not take Noah's Flood literally, but actually as local himself

From an assumption that it was local, God was resetting the order there to make way for another which would suffice for the revelations to come.

A thing to understand is that, by the very ancient interpretation, Yahweh was essentially the wind. You say His name every time you breathe in and out, and so this Spirit did all things through the air.
In which case, God shifted the winds from all the corners of the earth, focusing all storms on the East by which all the rain fell.

In fact, the Mediterranean Sea may have come from this, by which Eden sank into being that it is located in the Bible by many of the rivers which run through to it.

In this hypothetical, I think he needs to have a kill-em-all-global flood to make whatever point he is digging at, or he'd have to devise an even more elaborate rationale for why some disbelievers escaped his god's wrath and some didn't.

 

[Davian]

Out of curiosity, why is this thread in philosophy? How does this qualify as philosophy?

It doesn't, but the statement of purpose for this forum allows for the critical analysis of beliefs, as long as he can refrain from proselytizing.

 

[Davian]

So god created. Then got real angry at what he created. Then destroyed everything he created, save eight.
But this is ok, since, you know, god.

Sound about right so far?

Might makes right. Or something like that.

 

[anonymous person]

deserved [dih-zurvd] adjective
1. justly or rightly earned; merited:

"Earned", a verb, implies an action; What act do you feel those hypothetical fetuses did to earn or merit having their short lives extinguished?

I do not think the fetuses did anything.

As I stated, the term deserve is not limited in its application with reference to just acts committed. It can be used with regards to who a person is. I am an American citizen. As such, I am deserving of certain rights, rights I did nothing at all to earn or merit, but rights I am deserving of by virtue of who I am which is by virtue of where I was born.

Likewise, all of the human beings (all of which would have been born into sin) that were not morally culpable were deserving of a death fit for them by virtue of who they were, not by virtue of anything they had done. They were conceived in sin by wicked sinners, but were mercifully spared from the certain depravity and lawlessness which they would certainly have been reared in and have become a part of if they had lived to maturity. They were deserving of being spared of the suffering and multiplied pains and miseries which surely would have accompanied such a debased and miserable state. So God takes their life swiftly and thus they are brought safe, immediately into His presence.

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

Likewise, all of the human beings (all of which would have been born into sin) that were not morally culpable were deserving of a death fit for them by virtue of who they were, not by virtue of anything they had done. They were conceived in sin by wicked sinners, but were mercifully spared from the certain depravity and lawlessness which they would certainly have been reared in and have become a part of if they had lived to maturity. They were deserving of being spared of the suffering and multiplied pains and miseries which surely would have accompanied such a debased and miserable state. So God takes their life swiftly and thus they are brought safe, immediately into His presence.

So. . .it's basically like divine abortion?

 

[anonymous person]

So god created. Then got real angry at what he created. Then destroyed everything he created, save eight.
But this is ok, since, you know, god.

Sound about right so far?

Well, when I look at the whole picture, it is what I would expect if God were Holy, Righteous, Omniscient, omnipotent, and loving and merciful and just and all of the things God would be by virtue of who He is.

 

[anonymous person]

So. . .it's basically like divine abortion?

I do not understand what you mean.

 

[Davian]

I do not think the fetuses did anything.

As I stated, the term deserve is not limited in its application with reference to just acts committed. It can be used with regards to who a person is. I am an American citizen. As such, I am deserving of certain rights, rights I did nothing at all to earn or merit, but rights I am deserving of by virtue of who I am which is by virtue of where I was born.

Likewise, all of the human beings (all of which would have been born into sin) that were not morally culpable were deserving of a death fit for them by virtue of who they were, not by virtue of anything they had done. They were conceived in sin by wicked sinners, but were mercifully spared from the certain depravity and lawlessness which they would certainly have been reared in and have become a part of if they had lived to maturity. They were deserving of being spared of the suffering and multiplied pains and miseries which surely would have accompanied such a debased and miserable state. So God takes their life swiftly and thus they are brought safe, immediately into His presence.

So they were denied the opportunity of having a life on this planet - regardless of quality - for reasons beyond their control. Is this accurate?

 

[Itinerant Lurker]

I do not understand what you mean.

Really? You are saying that God decided that a bunch of unborn children were better off not being born and so he killed them by drowning their mothers.