God’s View of Time I Prophesy, Theophanies, and Christophanies

[evanr]

God’s View of Time I Prophesy, Theophanies, and Christophanies

CS Lewis Writes:
“God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried along in the imaginary time of his own novel. He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only being He had ever created.” (From CS Lewis, Mere Christianity, Time and Beyond Time).

How does an omniscient God view time? Does he move through time as we do, see the future, and steer things as was required to meet a desired end? Or did God come up with the plan from his above all time viewpoint and appear though out history as required to steer it to that end? Or perhaps it is all beyond my comprehension.

Many Bible scholars believe that as Jesus is God in the form of a man, any appearance of God in the form of a man in the Old Testament was Jesus.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).

These appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament are called Christophanies.

Here is a case study of a prophesy, including what I believe is a Christophany.

The Angel of the Lord

Sometimes, in old testament times, God would give visions of the future to his profits, or would send messengers, offering warnings or giving instructions in order to bring about a known future in which he already knows and exists. He knows when his warnings will not be heeded; yet still offers, presumedly in order to give us beings a choice.

Consider the foretelling of the birth of Sampson by the “Angel of the Lord”:

"And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. (Excerpts from Judges 13, NASB)."

These instructions offered by the Angel of the Lord showed that God knew in advance that Sampson would fulfil a planned purpose. Sampson would be free to make his own choices, good and bad; however, God knew what the final outcome would be.

So who was this messenger that gave Manoa and his wife these instructions? The Strongs concordance (a Greek and Hebrew lexicon), shows the “Angel of the Lord” here to be a combination of Strongs H4397 “Melak” a messenger or Angel, plus H3068 “Yehovah” Lord, or often God.

So Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the Man, he asked, “Are You the Man who spoke to my wife?”
“I am,” He said.

The messenger then was a 1)Angel (Melak), 2)Yehovah(Lord), and 3)Man!

But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Interpretation: Angel Yehovah Man God!

Perhaps this was the same “Angel of the Lord” that appeared to Hagar, concubine wife of Abraham. After receiving instructions and prophecy from the “Angel of the Lord”, Hagar exclaims:

“You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” (Genesis 16:13, NASB).

Yet in Exodus 33:20, God tells Moses:

“You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” (Exodus 33:20, NASB).

Yet, God does appear in the Old Testament in the form of a man. Perhaps then, these appearances must be Christophanies, or preincarnate appearances of Christ.

Jesus apparently did, in fact, exist since the beginning of our creation:

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven,”(Jesus, Luke 10:18).

Refers to the witnessing of an event that occurred even before man was created!

Gods view of Time

How would you describe Jesus appearing throughout history from his point of view? As a man, time seemed to have flowed for him as for us. But after rising to heaven, did he view events from beyond time, and then appear in the past when he desired? How else would this be possible?

Even if you don’t believe such early appearances were Christophanies, how would you describe an omniscient God’s view of time?

Evan

 

[evanr]

God’s View of Time I Prophesy, Theophanies, and Christophanies

CS Lewis Writes:
“God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried along in the imaginary time of his own novel. He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only being He had ever created.” (From CS Lewis, Mere Christianity, Time and Beyond Time).

How does an omniscient God view time? Does he move through time as we do, see the future, and steer things as was required to meet a desired end? Or did God come up with the plan from his above all time viewpoint and appear though out history as required to steer it to that end? Or perhaps it is all beyond my comprehension.

Many Bible scholars believe that as Jesus is God in the form of a man, any appearance of God in the form of a man in the Old Testament was Jesus.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).

These appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament are called Christophanies.

Here is a case study of a prophesy, including what I believe is a Christophany.

The Angel of the Lord

Sometimes, in old testament times, God would give visions of the future to his profits, or would send messengers, offering warnings or giving instructions in order to bring about a known future in which he already knows and exists. He knows when his warnings will not be heeded; yet still offers, presumedly in order to give us beings a choice.

Consider the foretelling of the birth of Sampson by the “Angel of the Lord”:

"And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. (Excerpts from Judges 13, NASB)."

These instructions offered by the Angel of the Lord showed that God knew in advance that Sampson would fulfil a planned purpose. Sampson would be free to make his own choices, good and bad; however, God knew what the final outcome would be.

So who was this messenger that gave Manoa and his wife these instructions? The Strongs concordance (a Greek and Hebrew lexicon), shows the “Angel of the Lord” here to be a combination of Strongs H4397 “Melak” a messenger or Angel, plus H3068 “Yehovah” Lord, or often God.

So Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the Man, he asked, “Are You the Man who spoke to my wife?”
“I am,” He said.

The messenger then was a 1)Angel (Melak), 2)Yehovah(Lord), and 3)Man!

But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Interpretation: Angel Yehovah Man God!

Perhaps this was the same “Angel of the Lord” that appeared to Hagar, concubine wife of Abraham. After receiving instructions and prophecy from the “Angel of the Lord”, Hagar exclaims:

“You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” (Genesis 16:13, NASB).

Yet in Exodus 33:20, God tells Moses:

“You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” (Exodus 33:20, NASB).

Yet, God does appear in the Old Testament in the form of a man. Perhaps then, these appearances must be Christophanies, or preincarnate appearances of Christ.

Jesus apparently did, in fact, exist since the beginning of our creation:

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven,”(Jesus, Luke 10:18).

Refers to the witnessing of an event that occurred even before man was created!

Gods view of Time

How would you describe Jesus appearing throughout history from his point of view? As a man, time seemed to have flowed for him as for us. But after rising to heaven, did he view events from beyond time, and then appear in the past when he desired? How else would this be possible?

Even if you don’t believe such early appearances were Christophanies, how would you describe an omniscient God’s view of time?

Evan

 

[evanr]

No opinions on how God views time? Was hoping for feedback. How about how freewill fits in with God's plan?

 

[David Lamb]

No opinions on how God views time? Was hoping for feedback. How about how freewill fits in with God's plan?

I imagine the difficulty is that (as far as I know), the bible does not tell us how God views time, thought it does say that He inhabits eternity:

“For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.” (Isa 57:15 NKJV)

 

[honey badger]

No opinions on how God views time? Was hoping for feedback. How about how freewill fits in with God's plan?

as a process ... seeing He declared the end from the beginning ...

 

[YeshuaFan]

God’s View of Time I Prophesy, Theophanies, and Christophanies

CS Lewis Writes:
“God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried along in the imaginary time of his own novel. He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only being He had ever created.” (From CS Lewis, Mere Christianity, Time and Beyond Time).

How does an omniscient God view time? Does he move through time as we do, see the future, and steer things as was required to meet a desired end? Or did God come up with the plan from his above all time viewpoint and appear though out history as required to steer it to that end? Or perhaps it is all beyond my comprehension.

Many Bible scholars believe that as Jesus is God in the form of a man, any appearance of God in the form of a man in the Old Testament was Jesus.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).

These appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament are called Christophanies.

Here is a case study of a prophesy, including what I believe is a Christophany.

The Angel of the Lord

Sometimes, in old testament times, God would give visions of the future to his profits, or would send messengers, offering warnings or giving instructions in order to bring about a known future in which he already knows and exists. He knows when his warnings will not be heeded; yet still offers, presumedly in order to give us beings a choice.

Consider the foretelling of the birth of Sampson by the “Angel of the Lord”:

"And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. (Excerpts from Judges 13, NASB)."

These instructions offered by the Angel of the Lord showed that God knew in advance that Sampson would fulfil a planned purpose. Sampson would be free to make his own choices, good and bad; however, God knew what the final outcome would be.

So who was this messenger that gave Manoa and his wife these instructions? The Strongs concordance (a Greek and Hebrew lexicon), shows the “Angel of the Lord” here to be a combination of Strongs H4397 “Melak” a messenger or Angel, plus H3068 “Yehovah” Lord, or often God.

So Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the Man, he asked, “Are You the Man who spoke to my wife?”
“I am,” He said.

The messenger then was a 1)Angel (Melak), 2)Yehovah(Lord), and 3)Man!

But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Interpretation: Angel Yehovah Man God!

Perhaps this was the same “Angel of the Lord” that appeared to Hagar, concubine wife of Abraham. After receiving instructions and prophecy from the “Angel of the Lord”, Hagar exclaims:

“You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” (Genesis 16:13, NASB).

Yet in Exodus 33:20, God tells Moses:

“You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” (Exodus 33:20, NASB).

Yet, God does appear in the Old Testament in the form of a man. Perhaps then, these appearances must be Christophanies, or preincarnate appearances of Christ.

Jesus apparently did, in fact, exist since the beginning of our creation:

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven,”(Jesus, Luke 10:18).

Refers to the witnessing of an event that occurred even before man was created!

Gods view of Time

How would you describe Jesus appearing throughout history from his point of view? As a man, time seemed to have flowed for him as for us. But after rising to heaven, did he view events from beyond time, and then appear in the past when he desired? How else would this be possible?

Even if you don’t believe such early appearances were Christophanies, how would you describe an omniscient God’s view of time?

Evan

Think same CS Lewis described that to God, He is always seeing all things as present as done right now to Him

 

[AACJ]

God’s View of Time I Prophesy, Theophanies, and Christophanies

CS Lewis Writes:
“God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried along in the imaginary time of his own novel. He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only being He had ever created.” (From CS Lewis, Mere Christianity, Time and Beyond Time).

How does an omniscient God view time? Does he move through time as we do, see the future, and steer things as was required to meet a desired end? Or did God come up with the plan from his above all time viewpoint and appear though out history as required to steer it to that end? Or perhaps it is all beyond my comprehension.

Many Bible scholars believe that as Jesus is God in the form of a man, any appearance of God in the form of a man in the Old Testament was Jesus.

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).

These appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament are called Christophanies.

Here is a case study of a prophesy, including what I believe is a Christophany.

The Angel of the Lord

Sometimes, in old testament times, God would give visions of the future to his profits, or would send messengers, offering warnings or giving instructions in order to bring about a known future in which he already knows and exists. He knows when his warnings will not be heeded; yet still offers, presumedly in order to give us beings a choice.

Consider the foretelling of the birth of Sampson by the “Angel of the Lord”:

"And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. (Excerpts from Judges 13, NASB)."

These instructions offered by the Angel of the Lord showed that God knew in advance that Sampson would fulfil a planned purpose. Sampson would be free to make his own choices, good and bad; however, God knew what the final outcome would be.

So who was this messenger that gave Manoa and his wife these instructions? The Strongs concordance (a Greek and Hebrew lexicon), shows the “Angel of the Lord” here to be a combination of Strongs H4397 “Melak” a messenger or Angel, plus H3068 “Yehovah” Lord, or often God.

So Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the Man, he asked, “Are You the Man who spoke to my wife?”
“I am,” He said.

The messenger then was a 1)Angel (Melak), 2)Yehovah(Lord), and 3)Man!

But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Interpretation: Angel Yehovah Man God!

Perhaps this was the same “Angel of the Lord” that appeared to Hagar, concubine wife of Abraham. After receiving instructions and prophecy from the “Angel of the Lord”, Hagar exclaims:

“You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” (Genesis 16:13, NASB).

Yet in Exodus 33:20, God tells Moses:

“You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” (Exodus 33:20, NASB).

Yet, God does appear in the Old Testament in the form of a man. Perhaps then, these appearances must be Christophanies, or preincarnate appearances of Christ.

Jesus apparently did, in fact, exist since the beginning of our creation:

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven,”(Jesus, Luke 10:18).

Refers to the witnessing of an event that occurred even before man was created!

Gods view of Time

How would you describe Jesus appearing throughout history from his point of view? As a man, time seemed to have flowed for him as for us. But after rising to heaven, did he view events from beyond time, and then appear in the past when he desired? How else would this be possible?

Even if you don’t believe such early appearances were Christophanies, how would you describe an omniscient God’s view of time?

Evan

The biblical data suggests God transcends time yet interacts with it. C.S. Lewis’s analogy of an author outside his novel’s timeline captures this well--God is not "hurried along" temporally (Lewis, Mere Christianity). Scripture presents God as both eternal (Psalms 90:2) and active in time, with Christophanies (pre-incarnate appearances of Christ) demonstrating this interplay. The "Angel of the Lord" in Judges 13, identified as divine (YHWH) yet manifest as a man, aligns with John 8:58’s claim of Christ’s eternal preexistence.

William Lane Craig’s relational view of time clarifies this: God exists timelessly sans creation but enters time at creation, sustaining a real relationship with temporal events (Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview). This explains how Christ could appear in the OT while remaining transcendent. Theophanies/Christophanies are not contradictions but manifestations of God’s voluntary temporal engagement--like an author stepping into his story at key moments.

God’s omniscience doesn’t negate human freedom (as in Samson’s life) because His knowledge is comprehensive, not causative. As Craig notes, middle knowledge allows God to know what free creatures would choose in any circumstance (Reasonable Faith). Thus, Christ’s appearances reflect God’s sovereign orchestration of history from both temporal and atemporal perspectives.

 

[YeshuaFan]

The biblical data suggests God transcends time yet interacts with it. C.S. Lewis’s analogy of an author outside his novel’s timeline captures this well--God is not "hurried along" temporally (Lewis, Mere Christianity). Scripture presents God as both eternal (Psalms 90:2) and active in time, with Christophanies (pre-incarnate appearances of Christ) demonstrating this interplay. The "Angel of the Lord" in Judges 13, identified as divine (YHWH) yet manifest as a man, aligns with John 8:58’s claim of Christ’s eternal preexistence.

William Lane Craig’s relational view of time clarifies this: God exists timelessly sans creation but enters time at creation, sustaining a real relationship with temporal events (Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview). This explains how Christ could appear in the OT while remaining transcendent. Theophanies/Christophanies are not contradictions but manifestations of God’s voluntary temporal engagement--like an author stepping into his story at key moments.

God’s omniscience doesn’t negate human freedom (as in Samson’s life) because His knowledge is comprehensive, not causative. As Craig notes, middle knowledge allows God to know what free creatures would choose in any circumstance (Reasonable Faith). Thus, Christ’s appearances reflect God’s sovereign orchestration of history from both temporal and atemporal perspectives.

Think prefer CS lewis view that per God, all time is eternal now to Him, as he is both outside time as being eternal, and in it when chooses to be

 

[com7fy8]

Or did God come up with the plan from his above all time viewpoint and appear though out history as required to steer it to that end?

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, yes Jesus was with our Father before the universe was made. What I have is that Jesus is God's own Son, so perfectly pleasing to our Father since Jesus is God as the Son. And no being less than God could be perfectly pleasing to our Father.

And our Father pleases also to have many who are conformed to how Jesus is so pleasing to Him. And so - - - this has our Father's attention, much more than time does > everything is working in relation to our Father's project of producing and maturing many children who are like Jesus and who therefore share and care as His family.

 

[com7fy8]

this has our Father's attention, much more than time does > everything is working in relation to our Father's project

God is concerned not only about time, but His tim-ing.

 

[Bob Crowley]

It's one thing to say that God sees the past, present and future at the same time. It's another to figure out how He acts while staying hidden.

I've often stated that the night my father died he appeared in my room. As part of that he gave some rather dire predications which I haven't stated here, and I don't intend to

But way back in 2005 I was driving a cab part time at night. One night I happened to be in the same suburb where my father died. This got me thinking about his dire predictions. So I prayed that I might get a "Sign" as to whether they could be trusted or not.

I got this sense back I should know better than to ask for a "sign" but I persevered anyway.

Now let's suppose he died at number 7, XYZ Street, Nundah (which was the suburb). I don't think it was that night but the next shift when I queud up at the cab rank. Eventually a bloke wandered up, a bit the worse for wear, hopped in the back and just said "Nundah!" I asked "Whereabouts in Nundah?" He almost snapped "Just drive! I'll tell you where to go!"

So off we went, turning here and there, and ended up at No. 6 XYZ Street, Nundah, directly opposite the flat where my father died.

Within that radius from the cab rank there are tens of thousands of potential drop off points, but this bloke literally guided me to the address right opposite that location. Now I was affected by other traffic, traffic lights, and competed with other cabs for this bloke's job. Neither he nor I had any inkling that anything out of the ordinary was taking place yet somehow, in my opinion, God managed to give me a "sign".

WIth nary a hint of how He carried it out.

He remained hidden, yet operated silently in time.