God’s faith in us matters more than our faith in God.

[Servus]

What do you think of this article,
'Stronger than my doubts.’ God’s faith in us matters more than our faith in God.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/opinion/paul-prather/article251702903.html

 

[Carl Emerson]

This piece seems to promote universalism...

The end game of this thesis is that individual salvation through Christ is not necessary because Gods faithful purpose will prevail regardless...

 

[fhansen]

What do you think of this article,
'Stronger than my doubts.’ God’s faith in us matters more than our faith in God.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/opinion/paul-prather/article251702903.html

I think the most important revelation that we can come to understand, that Jesus came to make known, is that God is on our side, that enmity and rebellion and jealousy came from man, not Him (“they hated Me without reason”, Jesus said of His persecutors in John 15:25, quoting Psalms), that He loves His creation-us-intensely, more than we could ever begin to imagine, in spite of our sin, that He wants all to come to Him but ultimately leaves that decision to us even as He works to draw us by His grace to Himself. He wants the very best for man, always has. He hates and opposes evil and will not allow it to coexist with good forever but is patient; He’s not the God we tend to default to: angry, distant, aloof in His superiority. 1 Cor 13:4-8 perhaps describes His own nature better than most any other way I can think of.

 

[Doveaman]

What do you think of this article,
'Stronger than my doubts.’ God’s faith in us matters more than our faith in God.
Redirect Notice

I would say that God’s faith in us is determined by our faith in God.
God will not have faith in us unless we first have faith in Him.

Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said…“Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:9-12)

Abraham had to first prove himself faithful to God before God could have faith in him.

 

[Saint Steven]

This piece seems to promote universalism...

The end game of this thesis is that individual salvation through Christ is not necessary because Gods faithful purpose will prevail regardless...

You write that as if it is a bad thing. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

What do you think of this article,
'Stronger than my doubts.’ God’s faith in us matters more than our faith in God.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/opinion/paul-prather/article251702903.html

Thanks for sharing this article, Brian.

As I read it I was thinking about children and puppies.

We don't release a child to walk, or a puppy to play, and then scoop them up when they get too far away and tell them they aren't trustworthy and will never amount to anything.

God probably views us that way. A child or puppy in that situation doesn't deserve a beating, so they will "learn their lesson". There are just children and puppies after all.

It seems that many of us have that view of God. That we children and puppies deserve a beating. One of my "pet" peeves with Christianity. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

I would say that God’s faith in us is determined by our faith in God.
God will not have faith in us unless we first have faith in Him.

Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said…“Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:9-12)

Abraham had to first prove himself faithful to God before God could have faith in him.

Perhaps you need to rewind the tape back to when Abram left Ur. Who had faith in whom first?

 

[hedrick]

Thanks for sharing this article, Brian.

As I read it I was thinking about children and puppies.

We don't release a child to walk, or a puppy to play, and then scoop them up when they get too far away and tell them they aren't trustworthy and will never amount to anything.

God probably views us that way. A child or puppy in that situation doesn't deserve a beating, so they will "learn their lesson". There are just children and puppies after all.

It seems that many of us have that view of God. That we children and puppies deserve a beating. One of my "pet" peeves with Christianity. - lol

Theology seems in many ways to mirror child rearing. The idea that children do better with forms of discipline other than punishment seems new, at least in our culture. That justice means punishment is deeply embedded. You can find it in Scripture, though I think you can find alternatives there, too.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You write that as if it is a bad thing. - lol

Well the conclusion is we don't need Christ or Christianity, God is all loving and no one will miss out on eternal life because His great Love for mankind will prevail...

Great theory but woefully lacking in scriptural support.

Maybe his 'revelation' supersedes scripture?

I wouldn't risk my life on it though...

 

[Saint Steven]

Well the conclusion is we don't need Christ or Christianity, God is all loving and no one will miss out on eternal life because His great Love for mankind will prevail...

Great theory but woefully lacking in scriptural support.

Maybe his 'revelation' supersedes scripture?

I wouldn't risk my life on it though...

It sounds as if you don't have a proper understanding of UR. (Ultimate Redemption)

The need for Christ is a central tenet of UR. (salvation is in him alone)

The "need" for Christianity is another question all together. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Well the conclusion is we don't need Christ or Christianity, God is all loving and no one will miss out on eternal life because His great Love for mankind will prevail...

Great theory but woefully lacking in scriptural support.

I'm happy to provide some "scriptural support" if that helps. (more where this came from)

In this scripture below, the acts of two people brought results (condemnation and justification) for all of humankind. (vs 18) And the obedience, or disobedience, of these same men made all of humankind both sinners and righteous. (vs 19) Note: "the many" = all. (vs 19) All were made sinners and all will be made righteous.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm happy to provide some "scriptural support" if that helps. (more where this came from)

In this scripture below, the acts of two people brought results (condemnation and justification) for all of humankind. (vs 18) And the obedience, or disobedience, of these same men made all of humankind both sinners and righteous. (vs 19) Note: "the many" = all. (vs 19) All were made sinners and all will be made righteous.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

@Carl Emerson The other interesting thing here is the use of the phrases "just as" and "so also", meaning: in the same way.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Carl Emerson The other interesting thing here is the use of the phrases "just as" and "so also", meaning: in the same way.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:19
9 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

The key word in the Greek is many (not 'all')

The weight of scripture confirming eternal destination depends on our response to Jesus in this life is considerable.

 

[Saint Steven]

Romans 5:19
9 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

The key word in the Greek is many (not 'all')

The weight of scripture confirming eternal destination depends on our response to Jesus in this life is considerable.

It says THE many. How many were made sinners = all
The same THE many will be made righteous = all

 

[Saint Steven]

The weight of scripture confirming eternal destination depends on our response to Jesus in this life is considerable.

Considerable? That's why it should be considered.
There is biblical support for all three doctrinal positions of the final judgment.

You picked at one word, in one of the two verses I showed you, and you seem to be finished. (having proved nothing) I guess your mind is made up.

Did Jesus succeed, or fail, at his mission?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Considerable? That's why it should be considered.
There is biblical support for all three doctrinal positions of the final judgment.

You picked at one word, in one of the two verses I showed you, and you seem to be finished. (having proved nothing) I guess your mind is made up.

Did Jesus succeed, or fail, at his mission?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Well, from what I have learned on CF, one misunderstood written word can lead one down a theological rabbit hole.

I believe in the greater prayerful devotional understanding of scripture first (this takes years) - Then, you will have a yardstick to measure individual verses.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, from what I have learned on CF, one misunderstood written word can lead one down a theological rabbit hole.

I suppose that is possible. But what just happened here?

The word in question (many) was part of a phrase (the many). You ignored the phrase "the many" in favor of the word "many". In doing so you unintentionally (I hope) claimed that "not all" were made sinners "through the disobedience of the one man". Oops.

But prior to that, you completely dropped verse eighteen, which clearly says "all". In both verses you have equal comparisons being made. There is no way around that.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I suppose that is possible. But what just happened here?

The word in question (many) was part of a phrase (the many). You ignored the phrase "the many" in favor of the word "many". In doing so you unintentionally (I hope) claimed that "not all" were made sinners "through the disobedience of the one man". Oops.

But prior to that, you completely dropped verse eighteen, which clearly says "all". In both verses you have equal comparisons being made. There is no way around that.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Do you really think that the idea of every human that ever lived spending eternity with God in paradise - fits comfortably with the bulk of the teachings of scripture abour sin, righteousness and judgement?

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe in the greater prayerful devotional understanding of scripture first (this takes years) - Then, you will have a yardstick to measure individual verses.

Yes. I do the same thing.
That's a pious way of saying we all pick and choose what we believe based on our own presuppositions. (religious upbringing and personal study) Then we can accept this verse and toss that one. Which makes our Bible resemble a slice of Swiss cheese, once we have trimmed out the bits we don't believe.

I've never been fond of the "biblical" idea of a forever burning hell. The fly in "the balm of Gilead" for me. But it was part and parcel to the whole thing. (Christianity)

One day I encountered a person that I have a lot of respect for. Someone with a deeper understanding of the Bible than I had. They caught my attention when they said they don't believe in a forever burning hell. I wanted to hear more. Like you, I knew what the Bible said. Biblically speaking, there didn't seem to be any way around it.

I argued initially in defense of a forever burning hell, even though I was more than happy to give it up. This got me nowhere. I had to do my own study on the subject by reading the primary proponents to really understand it.

The next thing I noticed was that I began to see through the arguments of those that were defending the forever burning hell. I even began to make rebuttal posts on the forum defending UR. (Ultimate Redemption)

At this point I would rather accept UR and be wrong than accept Damnationism and be right. If I went the wrong way on this, I may need to apologize to God for having such a high regard for his character.

If you want to explore the "dangerous" literature, here you go.

The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Or if you prefer to view an unbiased presentation of all three biblical views of the final judgment, this is a great presentation.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you really think that the idea of every human that ever lived spending eternity with God in paradise - fits comfortably with the bulk of the teachings of scripture abour sin, righteousness and judgement?

No. There is nothing comfortable about it at all.

The three doctrinal views of the final judgment stand in stark contrast to each other. They are conflicting views. Damnationism just happens to be the dominant and accepted view. This was not always the case, however. UR was the dominant theology in the early church, especially in the Eastern Church. (Orthodoxy) Unfortunately, the Western/Latin Church (Roman Catholicism) gave us our Bible translation. (the canon of scripture) Which has an obvious Damnationist bias. This citation below shows four of the six theological schools in the early church being Universalist. (UR)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."