God’s relationship with people

[Kaitsu]

Kaitsu,

Read Romans 1:18-20

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


This says that man does know God by his invisible qualities. So this is God's witness to us that he exists. In reality God doesn't throw them in the Lake of Fire, they do it to themselves by rejecting these invisible qualities.

I think this is being just a little unfair on a whole mass of humanity. Sure, that is fine for the guys living in homely comforts, with reasonable intelligence and the time and comfort to look around and ponder a bit.....

But would you care to come with me and tell that to the 8-12 year old street kids of St-Petersburg, who have either run away from drunken, violent homes or been dumped by their parents, who sell their bodies at night on the streets to every kind of pervert just to be able to eat the next day - and when they end up murdered in a street alley, no one cares because no one even knows who they are? Would you like to explain that they are going to hell 'cos they didn't bother to notice God all around them in the gutters of the city streets at night?

Or perhaps we could visit the African mother who is so feeble from malnutrition that she cannot find the strength to even brush the flies off the staring eyes of her dying child that lies limp in her lap, no longer strong enough to reach for the barren breasts that should be feeding it life? Both of these go to hell for not bothering to notice God all around them.

Or we could go to families around Chernobyl nursing their grossly deformed children as a result of nuclear accident, because they have neither money nor means or even comprehension to move away.

Or we can go to the mothers and children wasting away from AIDS in Africa, whose disease is through no fault of their own, and tell them the same fate awaits them for ignoring God's natural revelation.

The same destitution is repeated in every continent on this globe on a vast scale. Jesus says:

"I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." Matt 25:40

That is all very nice and rewarding for those that do it - but I want to know about those least ones that no one bothers to do anything for....and apparently are discarded by God as well as us. Does that really ring true to you?

Jesus also said:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." Matt 3:5-11


I just wish I could also hear, Blessed are those that never had a chance in this world....

So what is Jesus then? Chopped liver? He sent his son as a messenger of the plan to his people. they rejected the plan because it didn't fit into their paradigm of the Messiah. He took several disciples of which only 12 became his friend and only one stuck by him during the passion. The rest abandoned him for fear of losing their own lives. He goes to the cross in what appears to be a beaten man, but wait they don't know that this was God's plan all along. If they would only look to the scriptures they would have realized what they were doing. After the resurrection, Christ reveals the rest of the plan to his disciples (now Apostles) to Go into the world and preach the Gospel and Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A month and a half later the Holy Spirit comes on pentecost and fulfills the sign that God is with us always to the end of the age.

I am not sure I understand the "chopped liver bit". But you describe my whole point. God's gradual revelation is exactly that - gradual. It was only ever to a small and growing part of the world's population. That is fine for those who happen to be among those who hear (and believe), and I readily accept punishment for those that reject the Word. But all the time this is going on, there have been milllions of "also-ran's" who blindly got on with their lives and never heard anything at all about anything.

I guess just about every civilisation has recognised the existence of a God, and because God was not ready to reveal his true self to them, they invented their own versions of Gods. To me that is entirely understandable under the circumstances and answers the need to recognise God in the creation. Most gods are related to nature and natural phenomena. Ok, they were wicked, but so are we. The only difference is that we can be saved by believing in a God that has revealed and named himself to us, whilst they go to hell for creating their own god because God never gave them one - Is that fair play?

And for the majority of these populations, their local cult worship was all they knew. But why should they suspect there is anything else, if God himself was not ready to reveal himself to them then?

With God All things are possible.

I recognise the verse, but I am not sure of the context that you are using here. Are you saying that God may have other ways of saving people apart from Christ? Or are you offering it as a convenient cover to avoid having to wrestle with these issues?

I am sorry if my post appears very emotional. But I take the "love one another" very seriously and I cannot hide from the gross abuse of 80% of the world by the remaining 10%, most of which wear a Christian cloak boasting "I am saved" as they step on the "Lazarus" that lies at their door.


Keith

 

[BigNorsk]

The suffering of so many is so great. God warns us about seeing them and doing nothing. We aren't just to tell them to be well and be full, but to help them.

But I do not think you have to fear that they are not saved on account of God. We aren't always sure how he works, but we do know he is faithful and just. I too use the verse that shows people can see God in his creation as part of why noone is without blame, but there is more.

Romans 10:13-18 NET For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (14) How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? (15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news." (16) But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" (17) Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ. (18) But I ask, have they not heard? Yes, they have: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.

So people hear, it might not be obvious to us, but they do. Maybe they don't have a whole Bible or even any written words. Yet everywhere you go, people have heard.

When we see the massive suffering, it seems to me to be so much because others who have come before have rejected Christ's call. Sometimes it just becomes so overwhelming because it is easy to fall into one of the traps of this world, being overwhelmed by it all, and give up. Christ doesn't call the individual to "fix" the whole world. He calls each of us to be a part of the body, doing the ministry he has for each of us. You just have to give the problems to God, by that I don't mean to grow callous and uncaring, but to accept that we aren't in control, and in the end, it will all work to God's glory.

Marv

 

[revjpw]

Does anyone know what the formal positions of the three major Lutheran denominations in the United States are on the Book of Concord? I know it is used as a book of normative Lutheran beliefs and practices, but do they actually try to claim it as authoratively infallible and without error as you seem to imply is your belief?

Confessional Lutheranism holds to a quia subscription of the Lutheran Confessions as found in the Book of Concord of 1580. The Latin word quia means because. We hold that the BoC is authoritive because it is thoroughly Scriptural. It is a human writing and so is not a norm of teaching in the Church. The Bible is the norm, but the BoC is authoritive because it is thoroughly derived and conforms to the norm, that being Scripture. We do not hold to it as being infallible in and of itself. But if the BoC states something, it is the teaching of Scripture because Scripture is the norm.
This is the position of the LCMS.



DaRev

 

[CrossWiseMag]

Keith, you are missing the point.

God created each and every one of us -- BILLIONS OF US -- and we all ran away from him as fast as our little sinful legs would carry us. Each of us -- every single one -- mocked Him, spit on Him, slapped Him, flogged Him, ignored Him, and sinned against Him. We all deserve to live miserable, pitiful lives here on earth, in the gutters which so pain us to consider. And we all deserve a million times worse for all eternity.

But God didn't leave us there. To have rescued Adam and Eve, and let the rest of us rot in hell for eternity, would still have been more than humanity deserved. That 10 people will be in heaven is a miracle of a just God's love. That thousands, or millions, or billions will be there -- and purely because God deigned to suffer for us -- is beyond the comprehension of our sinful minds.

I would suggest you read Job, starting in chapter 38. See what God has to say to us when we question His goodness, His mercy, His wisdom. And then repent of your high-sounding platitudes -- as we all must do at times. God is good, He is merciful, and He is wise. And He has given us Christ alone to save us, despite our willful, stubborn sinfulness, because Christ alone is sufficient to save the world.

 

[Kaitsu]

Keith, you are missing the point.

God created each and every one of us -- BILLIONS OF US -- and we all ran away from him as fast as our little sinful legs would carry us. Each of us -- every single one -- mocked Him, spit on Him, slapped Him, flogged Him, ignored Him, and sinned against Him. We all deserve to live miserable, pitiful lives here on earth, in the gutters which so pain us to consider. And we all deserve a million times worse for all eternity.

What????????????

Some 25000+ plus people die of starvation every day. A large proportion of them are children and babies. I really don't see your description fitting them.

A baby dies of AIDS, having caught it from its mother who was raped. I don't see your description fitting it either.

Even in Europe. men, women and children are raped, tortured and murdered during ethnic cleansing struggles, when all they want to do is live a quiet life.

In India, kids go to work in factories doing hard, dangerous labour as soon as they are capable and for 10-15 hours a day just to earn money for food for their families They have no education, no religious instruction, just work and sleep. Your description doesn't fit them, either.

80,000 people are destroyed in an earthquake in Iran, many young children.

300,000 people die in a flood, many of them children.

There are prisons in Siberia full of youths who crime is stealing a cabbage or two. They are there for years because there is nowhere to send them. They have no shoes yet spend hours just standing in the prison yard in freezing snow. Ask them who Jesus or God is and you'll get a very blank look. Your description doesn't fit them, either.


For so many people, millions upon millions, life is nothing more than a fight for survival. They don't care a hoot about our God or Jesus, simply because they are too busy trying to stay alive.

And why are they like that? Because the greedy that are aware of God, don't care one bit. Ask any charity collector how often anyone gives anything more than the small change that happens to be in their pocket. NO one gives more than a fraction of their surplus, let alone changing their lifestyle in order to help - and yet it is they that we condemn to hell for non-belief.

Is our understanding of the bible, then, simply to say to those that suffer in ignorance, and die before even knowing what life is about: "serves you right!" Somehow, a little voice seems to be saying , "no, that is not what I meant at all."

Something seems to be telling me that no, it is not me that is missing the point at all........

But, perhaps you're right. However it only goes to show what a wide open topic God's relationship with people really is - and one that many people prefer to ignore.


Keith

 

[SPALATIN]

What????????????

Some 25000+ plus people die of starvation every day. A large proportion of them are children and babies. I really don't see your description fitting them.

A baby dies of AIDS, having caught it from its mother who was raped. I don't see your description fitting it either.

Even in Europe. men, women and children are raped, tortured and murdered during ethnic cleansing struggles, when all they want to do is live a quiet life.

In India, kids go to work in factories doing hard, dangerous labour as soon as they are capable and for 10-15 hours a day just to earn money for food for their families They have no education, no religious instruction, just work and sleep. Your description doesn't fit them, either.

80,000 people are destroyed in an earthquake in Iran, many young children.

300,000 people die in a flood, many of them children.

There are prisons in Siberia full of youths who crime is stealing a cabbage or two. They are there for years because there is nowhere to send them. They have no shoes yet spend hours just standing in the prison yard in freezing snow. Ask them who Jesus or God is and you'll get a very blank look. Your description doesn't fit them, either.


For so many people, millions upon millions, life is nothing more than a fight for survival. They don't care a hoot about our God or Jesus, simply because they are too busy trying to stay alive.

And why are they like that? Because the greedy that are aware of God, don't care one bit. Ask any charity collector how often anyone gives anything more than the small change that happens to be in their pocket. NO one gives more than a fraction of their surplus, let alone changing their lifestyle in order to help - and yet it is they that we condemn to hell for non-belief.

Is our understanding of the bible, then, simply to say to those that suffer in ignorance, and die before even knowing what life is about: "serves you right!" Somehow, a little voice seems to be saying , "no, that is not what I meant at all."

Something seems to be telling me that no, it is not me that is missing the point at all........

But, perhaps you're right. However it only goes to show what a wide open topic God's relationship with people really is - and one that many people prefer to ignore.


Keith

Keith,

What we are saying is that regardless of their suffering they are still sinners. They still run from God, maybe not literally but they ignore the signs that are given them and yes there is suffering in the world and it does make God sad, but it isn't his doing it is ours. We have brought this on ourselves and unfortunately not all those that "have" want to help all those who "have not" which makes the suffering seem even worse.

I don't know that God doesn't extend his grace to those children who have not had the opportunity to recognize the signs, but he is clear when he says that "men are without excuse." In India, they are mostly Hindu with a small portion in the south claiming Christianity and a small portion in the North claiming either Buddhism or Islam. In Africa, there is a great suffering in the Sudan because of slavery. Christian people are being enslaved because of their faith all at the hands of other humans. Can we blame God for that? No! It is fallen humanity that has put a majority of these people in their current status. Whether we like it or not none of this suffering comes at the hand of God, but from the hand of man.

You need to take off those lenses you have been wearing that cause your heart to bleed so much and realize that without God the suffering would be that much worse. God does use people to achieve his goals. Romans 8:28 says

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

We must pray for these people that God will find more ways to reach them and if he uses you to do it are you prepared to go?

Scott

 

[CrossWiseMag]

Some 25000+ plus people die of starvation every day. A large proportion of them are children and babies. I really don't see your description fitting them.

A baby dies of AIDS, having caught it from its mother who was raped. I don't see your description fitting it either.

Even in Europe. men, women and children are raped, tortured and murdered during ethnic cleansing struggles, when all they want to do is live a quiet life.

In India, kids go to work in factories doing hard, dangerous labour as soon as they are capable and for 10-15 hours a day just to earn money for food for their families They have no education, no religious instruction, just work and sleep. Your description doesn't fit them, either.

80,000 people are destroyed in an earthquake in Iran, many young children.

300,000 people die in a flood, many of them children.

There are prisons in Siberia full of youths who crime is stealing a cabbage or two. They are there for years because there is nowhere to send them. They have no shoes yet spend hours just standing in the prison yard in freezing snow. Ask them who Jesus or God is and you'll get a very blank look. Your description doesn't fit them, either.


For so many people, millions upon millions, life is nothing more than a fight for survival. They don't care a hoot about our God or Jesus, simply because they are too busy trying to stay alive.

And why are they like that? Because the greedy that are aware of God, don't care one bit. Ask any charity collector how often anyone gives anything more than the small change that happens to be in their pocket. NO one gives more than a fraction of their surplus, let alone changing their lifestyle in order to help - and yet it is they that we condemn to hell for non-belief.

Is our understanding of the bible, then, simply to say to those that suffer in ignorance, and die before even knowing what life is about: "serves you right!" Somehow, a little voice seems to be saying , "no, that is not what I meant at all."

Keith, with all due respect, you are simply not looking at this issue in a Scriptural way. You're looking at it with your heart. (And by the way, you're reaching the exact same conclusions that I reach when I look at it with my heart.) But unfortunately, Jesus has a little something to say about our hearts, and their reliability. He tells us our hearts are the source of sin. ("Out of the heart flows evil thoughts, etc...)

Holy Scripture is very clear. We are conceived and born into sin. I was a sinful baby before I dirtied my first diaper. I was cut off from God as my cherubic face peered angelically from the blankets in which the nurses bundled me. I deserved death and damnation, just as much as those kids who tragically get AIDS, or starve, or are sold into slavery.

But God reached me and washed me in the holy water of baptism. He buried me with Christ, that I might rise with Christ. And He has done it to millions of others who were just as unworthy as me.

If we deny the sinfulness of all men, and if we deny that they deserve eternal damnation for their sins, we deny the work of Christ, who died to take away the sins of the world, not just the sins of the elect. For all the suffering of all the sick and starving children in the world -- and I affirm that it is horrific -- none of them has suffered as much as Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. And it is through Christ that God has chosen to reconcile Himself to all sinners.

 

[Fish and Bread]

But unfortunately, Jesus has a little something to say about our hearts, and their reliability. He tells us our hearts are the source of sin.

If God is love, then love is God. Any philosophy that says love is evil is not Christianity, in my view.

I was cut off from God as my cherubic face peered angelically from the blankets in which the nurses bundled me. I deserved death and damnation.

If you truly feel that God wants to subject infants to eternal torture and damnation, then you should probably think twice either about your views, or about being a Christian. If I held that view, I could not in good conscience worship such a God. Fortunately, though, we're told that God is infinitely good, infinitely loving, and infinitely merciful. The obvious conclusion is that there are no infants in hell. The only way to conclude otherwise is by a fundamentalist non-contextual reading of the bible that is at odds with the overriding themes of the gospel.

John

 

[Kaitsu]

What we are saying is that regardless of their suffering they are still sinners. They still run from God, maybe not literally but they ignore the signs that are given them and yes there is suffering in the world and it does make God sad, but it isn't his doing it is ours. We have brought this on ourselves and unfortunately not all those that "have" want to help all those who "have not" which makes the suffering seem even worse.

Apart from the fact that there are billions of people in this world who have never had any signs to run away from, I fully agree with you. And this is exactly what I am getting at! How can it be that we are so in the wrong in our greediness, and yet it is they who pay the penalty instead of us, because we have a Christ to hide behind and they don't - and the reason they don't is because we haven't taken it to them, nor has God chosen to reveal himself to them directly.

My aim with this forum is to look at God's relationship with people - all people. I am not just looking to criticize people for their greed, but to look at how God is working with people. The core of my argument is that God chose a method of gradual revelation culminating in Jesus' incarnation. In doing so, he guaranteed that millions of people are left out of his plan through no fault of their own except that they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sure, we can point the finger and say that God says they had no excuse, but I have tried to point out that millions of people, in reality, have no opportunity or motivation to do such things.

I remember reading about villagers in Afghanistan during the war. They would walk for days to a food aid distribution point and then just sit for a week or two waiting, never knowing when, or if, any aid would actually arrive. Eventually, they got their sack of rice and some oil and started the long walk home. It wasn't very long before they repeat the process again. In refugee camps they slept on a dirt floor, sometimes in mud, with only a thin blanket and with night temperatures well below zero. How does God expect these sort of people to look around and wonder at his "good works"?

What is so unfair, is that we were just as blind to God as they are now. So why should a God who is fair, just, and full of love and mercy, give us a hand up out of the slime and leave those others to rot?

Who is more guilty, those that suffer, or us, who you say caused their suffering? They might be guilty of blindness, but it is us that put the nails into Jesus' wrists for the executioners to hammer home - But we go to paradise!

What disturbs me most is not the suffering itself, but the claim by Christians that our God is a God of love and mercy, and yet when it comes to these suffering hoards, who, as you yourself admit, only suffer because of OUR neglect and hard hearts, we see them going to hell because of unbelief. Does that really not strike you as totally against every vibration of Christ's work during his ministry on earth? Are we really supposed to believe that God created all those people just so they could suffer in order to show us our weaknesses and then, when they are dead, blatently chucks them into the garbage for ever more? Doesn't that strike you as against ALL Christian principles of love, kindness, humility and selfless generosity towards those in need?

If Jesus taught us to do good to those in need,in which we fail miserably, why would God not do the same thing and succeed?

I cannot help feeling there is something very seriously missing in our interpretation of Christianity in this light and I really cannot find it.

Christian people are being enslaved because of their faith all at the hands of other humans. Can we blame God for that? No! It is fallen humanity that has put a majority of these people in their current status. Whether we like it or not none of this suffering comes at the hand of God, but from the hand of man.

Persecution of Christians both in far lands and at home is a different issue altogether. These are people who know of Christ and the Christian faith and chose to ignore it or fight against it. In this area I don't see any problem.

You need to take off those lenses you have been wearing that cause your heart to bleed so much and realize that without God the suffering would be that much worse.

Is there something wrong with having a Christian heart that bleeds for the suffering? Does the fact that things could be worse justify our present greed and selfishness before God? I think it would be more appropriate for people to take off those thick spectacles behind which most Christians seem to think that these verses are not to be taken seriously, and that God doesn't really mind about our hard hearts at all - (afterall he's just full of grace, isn't he?):

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17,18

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:14-17

We must pray for these people that God will find more ways to reach them and if he uses you to do it are you prepared to go?

If one doesn't already know, wouldn't it be more appropriate to wonder why one hasn't already asked if God wants to use oneself? I am not sure if you are specifically asking me, but, yes, I am exactly where God wants me. My life has changed dramatically since God opened my eyes, it was a frightening descent into the unknown that involved walking out of my job, study, a new field of work, and participation in many, many new projects. The one thing that amazed me most was the way that every single door and obstacle was just flung aside as I followed his lead.

This, actually, is a very important point and one that I was hoping to move onto next anyway. In the time of Jesus I think it was far easier to understand what was meant by helping others. Without TV, radio, films, newspapers, cell phones, etc, one's "neighbours" were literally one's family, friends, neighbours and village - it was easy to define its scope.

Nowadays, it is not so simple. As we have been discussing, we are aware of all the problems that exist all around the globe, and there are endless ways in which we can do good for others. BUt we cannot hope to do more than a minimal amount. The problem, then, when faced with so much choice, is how to decide what one should do. How, amongst all the opportunities that exist are we to know what God wants from us?

The bible says:

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:10

We are created to do good works, not to earn salvation, but because that is what God wants and expects from us. So how do we know what works God has prepared for us?


Keith

 

[Kaitsu]

Keith, with all due respect, you are simply not looking at this issue in a Scriptural way. You're looking at it with your heart. (And by the way, you're reaching the exact same conclusions that I reach when I look at it with my heart.) But unfortunately, Jesus has a little something to say about our hearts, and their reliability. He tells us our hearts are the source of sin. ("Out of the heart flows evil thoughts, etc...)

Yes, you are right, and I do realise that I am not purely taking the Scriptural line here. The reason is that the Scriptural line, at least on the face of it, seems to contradict what I feel in my heart - but before you say that we mustn't trust our hearts over Scripture, I would like to emphasise one thing.

I agree that Jesus says:

"He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ ” Mark 7:20-23

But he is talking here about the unregenerate man. But once our hearts are opened by the Spirit it is a different matter. There was a time, before I came to faith, when I believed that if everyone only looked after their own families then there wouldn't be any problems in the world. In accordance with that I looked after my own and ignored everyone else. I never saw the fact that those in most trouble were precisely those that had no one to help them.

What I am now shown of the suffering in the world does not come from my heart - it is placed into my heart.

Holy Scripture is very clear. We are conceived and born into sin. I was a sinful baby before I dirtied my first diaper. I was cut off from God as my cherubic face peered angelically from the blankets in which the nurses bundled me. I deserved death and damnation, just as much as those kids who tragically get AIDS, or starve, or are sold into slavery.

Again, I do not disagree with you. All humans are equal in their sinful nature. We might learn some good habits, but our default state is "self" centred. But I am not arguing against that. What I cannot understand is why a fair and just God did not give the same opportunity to know Christ to everyone. We who are most aware of the problems in the world, and can do most to relieve them, actually do the least to resolve them. We were just as sinful, but just because we have Christ, we who do not help go to paradise whilst those that cannot help go to hell. All because God did not reveal himself universally. Where is the justice in that?

But God reached me and washed me in the holy water of baptism. He buried me with Christ, that I might rise with Christ. And He has done it to millions of others who were just as unworthy as me.

Sure, But why not for all the other billions who also need washing. They inherited their own inability to help themselves from Adam just as we did, and yet God is not going to help them out like he did us. Shouldn't we feel just a little guilty about that?

If we deny the sinfulness of all men, and if we deny that they deserve eternal damnation for their sins, we deny the work of Christ, who died to take away the sins of the world, not just the sins of the elect. For all the suffering of all the sick and starving children in the world -- and I affirm that it is horrific -- none of them has suffered as much as Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. And it is through Christ that God has chosen to reconcile Himself to all sinners.

If Jesus took away the sins of the entire world and God chose to reconcile himself to all sinners - how can we then say that only we are saved? Are we to think that God failed? Are we to think that those starving kids who die as infants actually resisted Christ?

Right here in your quote is the reason why I am struggling between heart and Scripture. Scripture says that Christ is the only way to the Father, yet we also see that Christ's sacrifice is for all sin and that God wants all men to be saved - so why is it that the least of this world are the ones that are going to suffer? If Christ was prepared to leave his flock to save the one lost sheep, why is he not going to save these who cannot help themselves and cannot help it that God hid from them in the first place?

I am not arguing for universalism, or against Christian belief. I simply cannot reconcile these matters and it gives me nightmares.

Keith

 

[Kaitsu]

If you truly feel that God wants to subject infants to eternal torture and damnation, then you should probably think twice either about your views, or about being a Christian. If I held that view, I could not in good conscience worship such a God. Fortunately, though, we're told that God is infinitely good, infinitely loving, and infinitely merciful. The obvious conclusion is that there are no infants in hell. The only way to conclude otherwise is by a fundamentalist non-contextual reading of the bible that is at odds with the overriding themes of the gospel.

Hi John,

I used to think the same way about infants, but in a similar debate on another forum here, a rather different slant on this occured to me.

It is clear that infants have not actually transgressed or have actual examples of sin on their scoreboard, but they are still sinful by nature. In the same way a lion cub has not yet killed its first prey, but it is still a predator by nature and instinct.

If this is so, then we know that all infants that die would have otherwise grown up as sinners. We can also assume that some of these would have grown up and been saved through faith and others would not. Therefore, if all infants are saved, we are creating a loophole through which those that would not have been saved in the fullness of life, are actually saved through premature death.

That may indeed be so and their blessing. But, on the other hand, since God is omniscient, he knows who would and would not have come to Christ and we could argue that infants are judged on that basis. - which could be seen as a far more just solution.

In addition, automatic salvation for infants would also mean that humans are able to control and determine someone's salvation by killing them as an infant. Í don't think that should be possible, even in theory.

There are verses in the bible that suggest that infants are saved, but they do not necessarily prove that all infants are saved. But I happen to think they might be...

I am not really suggesting anything here one way or the other, but I think it offers an interesting example of how our hearts are not always the best barometer or what is just or proper. It is precisely the same problem as I have with the suffering masses in the world!
Keith

 

[BigNorsk]

Keith,

It is a real struggle isn't it.

Maybe our Church's aren't doing a good job of preparing us to deal with this. We teach that the whole Bible is God's inspired word, all of it is useful for teaching, yet we tend to spend our time on about 1/4 of it, and we tend to ignore the unpleasant places.

Maybe you need to take this question head on. I would recommend Lamentations. Mothers of God's chosen people are recorded there eating their newborn children. Horror of horrors. How can this be?

I think the answer is that sin has consequences, often not only for the person in whom the sin starts but often for those around the sinner. God teaches us that we aren't judged concerning our salvation for the sins of others, yet clearly the sins of others affects us on this Earth. Just as the world suffers to this day on account of the sin of Adam.

Why does this happen? I think the answer lies in restoration, in God calling the unsaved to him and calling the saved back closer to him. We see the consequences of sin, effectively, I believe these horrible things are a shadow of the judgement of the Laws of God. The results of sin in the world are so horrible, yet I believe they will be like a little paper cut compared to the results for those who reject God. It is all part of God's plan to call the world to him.

Let's say God snapped his fingers and the world became a veritable Garden of Eden for everyone. What would happen, we wouldn't see the consequences of sin in this world. I believe no consequences in this world would be taken by many to mean no consequences in the next.

That would be even worse, for no matter how bad one's life is here, it is for but a short time.

These horrible things are calling us, calling Christians, to be a light unto the world. We should, we must respond.

Keith, are you involved in a group to help those poor people?

Marv

 

[CrossWiseMag]

If you truly feel that God wants to subject infants to eternal torture and damnation, then you should probably think twice either about your views, or about being a Christian. If I held that view, I could not in good conscience worship such a God. Fortunately, though, we're told that God is infinitely good, infinitely loving, and infinitely merciful. The obvious conclusion is that there are no infants in hell. The only way to conclude otherwise is by a fundamentalist non-contextual reading of the bible that is at odds with the overriding themes of the gospel.

I don't think God wants to send babies or children to hell, any more than he wants to send unrepentant serial murders to hell. Where in the world did you get the idea that orthodox Christianity believes that?

Incidentally, "fundamentalists" reject original sin, in general, so your last statement is as wrong as your first.

 

[Kaitsu]

Keith, are you involved in a group to help those poor people?

Marv

Yes indeed. The group is called Christians. But not all its members are active members

Keith

 

[BigNorsk]

Amen

 

[stranger]

So it seems to me that something is missing here. What is it, then, that saves some and not others?

Something seriously missing since in 1Timothy 4:10 we have that God is the saviour of all men ...

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

men are saved by God, a gift of faith in Him by His grace [UNMERITED forgiveness] , a gift given BEFORE repentance , so God could not favour some men with redemption and leave out others ...

Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: