God’s OT covenant of eternal life includes salvation through Jesus.

[StevenMerten]

Jesus confirms God’s Old Testament Covenant to love and obey God as granting eternal life (Luke 10:25). When asked, "What must I do to share in everlasting life?" in Mat 19:16, Jesus answers with God's Old Testament Covenant to obey the commandments if you wish to enter into life (Deu 13:15). Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the Kingdom of God (Luke 13:28). We know that the only way they can go to heaven is through the blood of Jesus. In Jeremiah 33:6, God tells us that He will cleans Israel through Jesus, fulfilling God’s promise. Isaiah 53 tells us that God laid upon Jesus the sins of the Israelites. Isaiah says, “Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole” and “the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all”. King David proclaims his salvation in the cornerstone we know as Jesus Christ (Psalms 118:15).


God cannot lie or deceive. When God offers an eternal life covenant to Old Testament People we know it is true and we know that it must include salvation through the blood of Jesus.


NAB LUK 13:28

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.
​

NAB LUK 10:25

"Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?" Jesus answered him: "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:

"You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
with all your strength,
and with all your mind;
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live."

​

NAB DEU 6:1

"These then are the commandments, the statutes and decrees which the LORD, your God, has ordered that you be taught to observe in the land into which you are crossing for conquest, so that you and your son and your grandson may fear the LORD, your God, and keep, throughout the days of your lives, all his statutes and commandments which I enjoin on you, and thus have long life. Hear then, Israel, and be careful to observe them, that you may grow and prosper the more in keeping with the promise of the LORD, the God of your fathers, to give you a land flowing with milk and honey." The great commandment. Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.
​

NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.

"Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy."
​

NAB SIR 15:11 Man's Free Will.

Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.​

NAB MAT 19:16

"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
​

NAB JER 33:6

Behold, I will treat and assuage the city's wounds; I will heal them, and reveal to them an abundance of lasting peace. I will change the lot of Judah and the lot of Israel, and rebuild them as of old. I will cleanse them of all the guilt they incurred by sinning against me; all their offenses by which they sinned and rebelled against me, I will forgive. Then Jerusalem shall be my joy, my praise, my glory, before all the nations of the earth, as they hear of all the good I will do among them. They shall be in fear and trembling over all the peaceful benefits I will give her. Thus says the LORD: In this place of which you say, "How desolate it is, without man, without beast!" and in the cities of Judah, in the streets of Jerusalem that are now deserted, without man, without citizen, without beast, there shall yet be heard the cry of joy, the cry of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, the voice of the bride, the sound of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD, singing, "Give thanks to the LORD of hosts, for the LORD is good; his mercy endures forever." For I will restore this country as of old, says the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts: In this place, now desolate, without man or beast, and in all its cities there shall again be sheepfolds for the shepherds to couch their flocks. In the cities of the hill country, of the foothills, and of the Negeb, in the land of Benjamin and the suburbs of Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hands of the one who counts them, says the LORD. The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and Judah. In those days, in that time, I will raise up for David a just shoot; he shall do what is right and just in the land. In those days Judah shall be safe and Jerusalem shall dwell secure; this is what they shall call her: "The LORD our justice."
​

NAB ISA 53:4 (Isaiah to the Israelites.)

Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.

Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.


​

NAB PSA 118:15

The joyful shout of victory in the tents of the just: "The right hand of the LORD has struck with power: The right hand of the LORD is exalted; the right hand of the LORD has struck with power." I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. Though the LORD has indeed chastised me, yet he has not delivered me to death.

Open to me the gates of justice; I will enter them and give thanks to the LORD. This gate is the LORD's; the just shall enter it. I will give thanks to you, for you have answered me and have been my savior. The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. By the LORD has this been done; it is wonderful in our eyes. This is the day the LORD has made; let us be glad and rejoice in it. O LORD, grant salvation! O LORD, grant prosperity!

​

What do you think?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

 

[heymikey80]

Indeed, there are quite interesting verses in the New Testament on this issue, pointing out that Jesus is Himself present and involved in the Old Covenant, the Old being a shadow-illustration of the New. This strategy is described in Galatians 4 ... but there are other verses surrounding the idea, too.

Gal 3:8-9 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Heb 11:39-40 And all these [OT faithful], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Col 2:16-17 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Jesus confirms God’s Old Testament Covenant to love and obey God as granting eternal life (Luke 10:25). When asked, "What must I do to share in everlasting life?" in Mat 19:16, Jesus answers with God's Old Testament Covenant to obey the commandments if you wish to enter into life (Deu 13:15). Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the Kingdom of God (Luke 13:28). We know that the only way they can go to heaven is through the blood of Jesus. In Jeremiah 33:6, God tells us that He will cleans Israel through Jesus, fulfilling God’s promise. Isaiah 53 tells us that God laid upon Jesus the sins of the Israelites. Isaiah says, “Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole” and “the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all”. King David proclaims his salvation in the cornerstone we know as Jesus Christ (Psalms 118:15).


God cannot lie or deceive. When God offers an eternal life covenant to Old Testament People we know it is true and we know that it must include salvation through the blood of Jesus.


NAB LUK 13:28

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.


​

NAB LUK 10:25

"Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?" Jesus answered him: "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:


"You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
with all your strength,
and with all your mind;
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live."


​

NAB DEU 6:1

"These then are the commandments, the statutes and decrees which the LORD, your God, has ordered that you be taught to observe in the land into which you are crossing for conquest, so that you and your son and your grandson may fear the LORD, your God, and keep, throughout the days of your lives, all his statutes and commandments which I enjoin on you, and thus have long life. Hear then, Israel, and be careful to observe them, that you may grow and prosper the more in keeping with the promise of the LORD, the God of your fathers, to give you a land flowing with milk and honey." The great commandment. Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.


​

NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.

"Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy."


​

NAB SIR 15:11 Man's Free Will.

Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.​

NAB MAT 19:16

"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"


​

NAB JER 33:6

Behold, I will treat and assuage the city's wounds; I will heal them, and reveal to them an abundance of lasting peace. I will change the lot of Judah and the lot of Israel, and rebuild them as of old. I will cleanse them of all the guilt they incurred by sinning against me; all their offenses by which they sinned and rebelled against me, I will forgive. Then Jerusalem shall be my joy, my praise, my glory, before all the nations of the earth, as they hear of all the good I will do among them. They shall be in fear and trembling over all the peaceful benefits I will give her. Thus says the LORD: In this place of which you say, "How desolate it is, without man, without beast!" and in the cities of Judah, in the streets of Jerusalem that are now deserted, without man, without citizen, without beast, there shall yet be heard the cry of joy, the cry of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, the voice of the bride, the sound of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD, singing, "Give thanks to the LORD of hosts, for the LORD is good; his mercy endures forever." For I will restore this country as of old, says the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts: In this place, now desolate, without man or beast, and in all its cities there shall again be sheepfolds for the shepherds to couch their flocks. In the cities of the hill country, of the foothills, and of the Negeb, in the land of Benjamin and the suburbs of Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hands of the one who counts them, says the LORD. The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and Judah. In those days, in that time, I will raise up for David a just shoot; he shall do what is right and just in the land. In those days Judah shall be safe and Jerusalem shall dwell secure; this is what they shall call her: "The LORD our justice."


​

NAB ISA 53:4 (Isaiah to the Israelites.)

Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.


Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.



​

NAB PSA 118:15

The joyful shout of victory in the tents of the just: "The right hand of the LORD has struck with power: The right hand of the LORD is exalted; the right hand of the LORD has struck with power." I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. Though the LORD has indeed chastised me, yet he has not delivered me to death.


Open to me the gates of justice; I will enter them and give thanks to the LORD. This gate is the LORD's; the just shall enter it. I will give thanks to you, for you have answered me and have been my savior. The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. By the LORD has this been done; it is wonderful in our eyes. This is the day the LORD has made; let us be glad and rejoice in it. O LORD, grant salvation! O LORD, grant prosperity!


​

What do you think?


Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

Jesus lived in OT times , was asked the question by an OT believer so had no other choice but to give an OT answer

 

[StevenMerten]

Jesus lived in OT times , was asked the question by an OT believer so had no other choice but to give an OT answer

Hello TasManOfGod,

I am not clear as to what you are saying. Regardless of when Jesus lived, Jesus' words we regard as truth; do we not? I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus had no other option than to teach the truth.

If Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who lived under God's Old Testament Covenant, live in the Kingdom of God, then we can be assured that these Old Testament men are alive in the Kingdom of God.

Please clarify what you are saying.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

NAB MAR 12:18

Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken." ​

NAB LUK 13:28

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.
​

 

[TasManOfGod]

Hello TasManOfGod,

I am not clear as to what you are saying. Regardless of when Jesus lived, Jesus' words we regard as truth; do we not? I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus had no other option than to teach the truth.

If Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who lived under God's Old Testament Covenant, live in the Kingdom of God, then we can be assured that these Old Testament men are alive in the Kingdom of God.

Please clarify what you are saying.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

NAB MAR 12:18

Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken." ​

NAB LUK 13:28

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.


​

I am saying that indeed Jesus died for the sin of the world even from creation but recognise that the answer Jesus gave related to how to obtain eternal life within the boundaries of a believer of the Law. Jesus gave the answer accordingly as He would if say another asked him if they were living at the time of say Abraham. or Isaac , or Jacob. Eternal life is a matter of your relationship with God according to the covenant provision you have with Him.

 

[StevenMerten]

I am saying that indeed Jesus died for the sin of the world even from creation but recognise that the answer Jesus gave related to how to obtain eternal life within the boundaries of a believer of the Law. Jesus gave the answer accordingly as He would if say another asked him if they were living at the time of say Abraham. or Isaac , or Jacob. Eternal life is a matter of your relationship with God according to the covenant provision you have with Him.

Hello TasManOfGod,

As I understand you, we agree that both Old Testament people and New Testament people enter into heaven through Christ's sacrifice of grace. Is this correct?

I think we both agree that not all people go to heaven through Christ's sacrifice of grace. Some people go to hell. Is this correct?

What you seem to be indicating is that Old Testament people are judged by Jesus into heaven, through Christ's grace, or hell (without Christ's grace), based on their love or hate for God, but not New Testament people. In your opinion, Christians love or hatred for Jesus and the Father no longer has any effect on whether or not a person goes to heaven. Is this correct?

One of the problems for your line of thought is that Jesus, after His death and ressurection, in Revelations (Rev 22:12), where Jesus is speaking to Christians, tells us that He will judge us according to our conduct. Also in John 5:27, when Jesus is talking about future judgement day, Jesus tells us that all will be judged according to their conduct and not just Old Testament people. It seems to me that Jesus is indicating that both OT and NT people will be judged according to thier conduct (which is love or hate for God) and it will be those OT and NT people who love God, with all their hearts, whom will enter into heaven through Christ's sacrifice of grace.

NIV 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.​

NIV JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

​

NAB JOH 15:22

"If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father."
​

NAB REV 22:12

"Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood."
​

NAB JOH 5:27

"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned." ​

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

 

[TasManOfGod]

Steven, The answers to the questions you ask are in my response. I am not God but I know He honours His Covenants. Quite frankly there might be some surprises in store for all of us.

 

[heymikey80]

Jesus, after His death and ressurection, in Revelations (Rev 22:12), where Jesus is speaking to Christians, tells us that He will judge us according to our conduct. Also in John 5:27, when Jesus is talking about future judgement day, Jesus tells us that all will be judged according to their conduct and not just Old Testament people. It seems to me that Jesus is indicating that both OT and NT people will be judged according to thier conduct (which is love or hate for God) and it will be those OT and NT people who love God, with all their hearts, whom will enter into heaven through Christ's sacrifice of grace.

Apparently not. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. " John 5:24

We seem to constantly make that leap; yet Jesus has said some will not be judged in the way most expect (Jn 3:18).

That Jesus will bring reward to what everyone has done (Rev 22:12) is not necessarily that Jesus will judge them as to fitness for eternal life the same way. Ultimately, you'd reach a contradiction of John with John if you asserted this. So I would think John must mean a different kind of reward, or a different kind of judging our works.

 

[StevenMerten]

Apparently not. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. " John 5:24

We seem to constantly make that leap; yet Jesus has said some will not be judged in the way most expect (Jn 3:18).

That Jesus will bring reward to what everyone has done (Rev 22:12) is not necessarily that Jesus will judge them as to fitness for eternal life the same way. Ultimately, you'd reach a contradiction of John with John if you asserted this. So I would think John must mean a different kind of reward, or a different kind of judging our works.

Hello heymike,

What scripture are you using to define Jesus word "believe"? How does one "believe" in God as God defines the term; "and believes Him who sent Me"?

When I do a bible scan on the words believe in God, it almost always is defined as obeying God. In OT and NT to "believe" in Jesus and the Father means to do as They command. Whether Jesus is judging you or you "believe" in God through obedience, the key to God's covenant of recieving eternal life through Jesus is obedience to God which is love for God.

Old Testament people believe in God by obeying God just the same as New Testament people believe in Jesus and the Father by obeying God. Whether or not OT and NT people are judged as Jesus says or they "believe" which is obedience, this does not stray from God's covenant of grace and eternal life through Jesus to those who love God through obedience.

NAB JOH 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.​

NAB WIS 12:2

Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little, warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing, that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD!​

NAB JOH 12:44

Jesus proclaimed aloud: "Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who believes in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me." ​

NIV PSA 78:32

In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe.​

NAB MAT 7:21

"None of those who cry out, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.


​

NAB PSA 106:24

Yet they despised the desirable land; they believed not his word. They murmured in their tents, and obeyed not the voice of the LORD.
​

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

 

[heymikey80]

Hello heymike,

What scripture are you using to define Jesus word "believe"? How does one "believe" in God as God defines the term; "and believes Him who sent Me"?

When I do a bible scan on the words believe in God, it almost always is defined as obeying God. In OT and NT to "believe" in Jesus and the Father means to do as They command. Whether Jesus is judging you or you "believe" in God through obedience, the key to God's covenant of recieving eternal life through Jesus is obedience to God which is love for God.

I'm sorry, in what sense do you mean "obey"? Greek has multiple words for this concept, and they do not all directly mean, "do (Gk "work") precisely what is commanded." Scripture makes this distinction very readily, in a number of places.

The terms for "obey" always carry the idea of credulously listening and heeding a command. They do not always mean carrying out the command well, or properly, or even at all.

'For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Rom 4:2-8

"Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom 3:27-28

That is not to say people don't heed Christ's command: first, His chief command is very different from performing actions: "Believe in Me."

And that is also not to say believers don't do work, either. Clearly they do work -- but this work is not faith. It's the outworking result of faith.

 

[StevenMerten]

I'm sorry, in what sense do you mean "obey"? Greek has multiple words for this concept, and they do not all directly mean, "do (Gk "work") precisely what is commanded." Scripture makes this distinction very readily, in a number of places.

Hello heymike,

I think the wording in God's covenant of eternal life defines obedience. How do you read the following scriptural verses of God's covenant in regards to understanding God's meaning of obedience?

NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.

"Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy."
​

NAB SIR 15:11 Man's Free Will.

Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.


​

NAB MAT 19:16

"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"


​

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

 

[StevenMerten]

That is not to say people don't heed Christ's command: first, His chief command is very different from performing actions: "Believe in Me."

Hello Mike,

Jesus is asked which command is greatest (Mark 12:28). Jesus answers with God's Old Testament Covenant of eternal life. We know that to love God involves actions; NIV 1 John 5:3 "This is love for God: to obey his commands." Was Jesus simply avoiding telling His true feelings on the issue in order to avoid the scorn of the Scribes and Pharisees?

I am still not clear as to what scripture you are using to define Jesus' and the Father's term "believe". In John 12:44 Jesus defines belief in Him as obedience to His teachings. If one follows Christ's definition of God's term believe then one is loving God through obedience as Christ commanded. I think we need a new thread to define God's terminology "believe". Then all can post scripture which defines God's terminology "believe".

NAB JOH 12:44

Jesus proclaimed aloud: "Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who believes in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me."
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NAB MAT 7:21

"None of those who cry out, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
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NAB LUK 6:43

Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not put into practice what I teach you?" ​

NAB MAR 12 The Great Commandment.

"Which is the first of all the commandments?" Jesus replied, "This is the first:

'Hear O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone!
Therefore you shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
with all your mind,
and with all your strength.'
"This is the second,
'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
There is no other commandment greater than these." The scribe said to him: "Excellent, Teacher! You are right in saying, 'He is the One, there is no other than he.' Yes, 'to love him with all our heart, with all our thoughts and with all our strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves' is worth more than any burnt offering or sacrifice." Jesus approved the insight of this answer and told him, "You are not far from the reign of God."

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Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

 

[heymikey80]

Jesus is asked which command is greatest (Mark 12:28). Jesus answers with God's Old Testament Covenant of eternal life. We know that to love God involves actions; NIV 1 John 5:3 "This is love for God: to obey his commands." Was Jesus simply avoiding telling His true feelings on the issue in order to avoid the scorn of the Scribes and Pharisees?

Why do you attribute outrageous motives to a position differing with you, like "Jesus ... avoid the scorn"?

No, Jesus wasn't avoiding anything. Neither John nor Jesus spoke English. He spoke Greek. 1 Jn 5:3 "teromen" primarily means to "guard". It says that the command is to be preserved, kept, protected, and heeded. It doesn't demand that the command be performed in some proper way as a work.

Jesus answered what commandment (of the Law) was the greatest. Jesus answers with God's highest command, the one no human satisfies to the full. The love of God indeed deserves actions -- so much so that you will never justify what you didn't do for Him.

Lk 17:7-10 "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'? But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

So this method of obedience gains nothing. Your work gains no eternal life. It's not enough to draw God's attention, even.

I am still not clear as to what scripture you are using to define Jesus' and the Father's term "believe". In John 12:44 Jesus defines belief in Him as obedience to His teachings. If one follows Christ's definition of God's term believe then one is loving God through obedience as Christ commanded. I think we need a new thread to define God's terminology "believe". Then all can post scripture which defines God's terminology "believe".

Um, John 12:44 Jesus defines belief in His words as belief in the one who sent Him. In 12:47 Jesus refers to someone who does not believe His words. The commands of God are to believe in Jesus.

Here are a few verses to go by for defining belief as separate from works, but causing works in a different way than some scale of effort (whether meritorious, or a "God grades on a curve" scheme: both are wages for work):

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

"Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works." Rom 9:31-32

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works" Ep 2:8-9

'However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO WORKS THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."' Gal 3:12

"Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom 3:27-28

 

[StevenMerten]

Hello Heymikey,

I started another thread on God's definition of the term "believe". Out of 32 members responding to the poll 75% believe that God's term "believe", as to believe in God, means to do what God tells you to do. Please come over and voice your opinion.

To "believe" in God means to do what He tells you to do. T/F

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

 

[heymikey80]

Hello Heymikey,

I started another thread on God's definition of the term "believe". Out of 32 members responding to the poll 75% believe that God's term "believe", as to believe in God, means to do what God tells you to do. Please come over and voice your opinion.

To "believe" in God means to do what He tells you to do. T/F

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

Of course, voting is not a way of determining what God has to say. "Let God be true and every man a liar."