Goals for gender equality in a world where sexuality is sensibly free.

[cantata]

Exactly! I can see why sexual objectification, pornography and prostitution are feminist issues in our social context, but it perplexes me that some feminists seem to think it is inherently so.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a man looking at some women purely as objects of sexual desire (as in pornography). As long as there's nothing wrong with women doing the same with men, and women with women and men with men.

It's not, as some characterise it, some misogynistic ownership thing. It;s just that we're all animals, men and women, straight, gay, bisexual and other. It's not insulting anyone's intelligence, worth or sensitivity, it's just focusing on something else.

Hey, I 100% agree with you! I very much hope that there'll be affirming, positive pornography in a post-feminist world. I just think that currently, pornography is very telling about the gender inequalities and the attitudes to female sexuality that we still face. I am absolutely not trying to suggest that we need to start running out and banning it or trying to change it with legislation. I would just really like it if ultimately the highly gender-biased way in which pornography unnecessarily treats men and women were to change. That would tell me that we had reached a new stage of working towards gender equality.

I think (tell me if I'm wrong) that you don't like seeing men taking the dominant role and women typically taking a more submissive role in porn as you think this is what reflects society in general in real life. I'm not really sure if that is the case so much these day. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Ah, but it really is the case. It is sometimes pretty subtle - it's in the realms of language, of attitudes, and of assumptions. I'm not suggesting that there are clauses in women's job contracts saying that they will never be allowed to be promoted above a certain point, or that most men beat their wives or chain them to the sink But if I may say so, it's much easier to notice this stuff if you're a woman (which is why I could really do with some more ladies in this thread!).

Cantata, excellent thread. I hear you loud and clear.

Phew, maybe I'm not nuts

It is indeed the case on my side of the pond. Unfortunately it's so embedded in our society that it's almost subtle...well, as subtle as an elephant in a room full of blind folk.

Ah, it's true...

I am not sure about your questions because I don't think that is the caricatures that appeal to most heterosexual men.

The caricature I was thinking of was the one of a woman that is insanely pleasured by giving oral sex, as in the mere sight of manly parts is enough to elicit sexual response. This caricature's appeal, I think, is simple to understand and ironically is due to the change in male sexuality in response to the sexual liberation of women and the feminist movement. Basically a thing that is ingrained on the psyche of modern man is that their manliness is based on their ability to satisfy their partner. The appeal of a woman that is pleasured by anything, especially for sexually inexperienced men, is that it is a little fantasy world were they are men, until they get enough real world experience.

It's a fair theory, and perhaps a partial explanation. I like the little dig at feminism there But you haven't accounted for other features of the caricature. Why is she on her knees (both literally and metaphorically speaking)?

Their characters are not real. I think that whether or not something is degrading should be the decision of the person doing it. Also degraded is relative.

For example, I find strip clubs degrading, not to the women but to me. I really despise those places. Do I care if another man wants to go and pay his money simply for a faked interest and nakedness, as if we are some sort of idiots that women can control by simply showing flesh? No. It is his choice. Most women seem to think it is the strippers that are being degraded, I really don't.

Similarly while you might think it degrading to the woman that doesn't mean that it is degrading.

Various sources suggest to me that at least some women do find it degrading, but I take your point. I am not trying to suggest that it's degrading to all women. On the other hand, I think that some things can be subtly repressive, even if the people involved vehemently deny that they are.

While there are maybe still some inequalities relating to gender in the west, the fact of the matter is that this is probably mostly due to that the movement for gender equality is historical relatively young, and not any intentional bias.

Feminists won the argument. Men generally do accept that women are as capable as men and that women are, which I think is the most important thing, the intellectual equals of men.

This may well be true. I'm not suggesting that gender inequality is consciously perpetuated by the majority of people. I'm pretty sure I've never said anything to that effect in this thread, in fact. But it is absolutely still there and it needs to change if we are to be in a situation where women can enjoy their sexuality (among other things) to its fullest extent.

The problem that you seem to be having is the response men generally had to this whole thing. They did not turn around and think "expecting consenting women to satisfy men sexually is wrong" they thought "expecting consenting women to solely satisfy men sexually is wrong, if men are not expected to sexually satisfy women in turn. Let's have equality in this".

Nonsense. Of course I don't think "expecting consenting women to satisfy men sexually is wrong" (although I dislike the word "expecting" in this context).

What you fail to see is that as long as there is gender bias in the world, the problems facing the genders, and therefore the examples of what does and does not constitute discrimination, will be different. It's nothing inherently to do with men or women. It is as a result of the gender-biased world in which we live.

 

[Khameo]

The reason pornography is like that is because it's aimed towards men. All of it.
Straight porn? For men.
Gay porn? For men.
Lesbian porn? Men like that too.
Fact is, the porn industry represents women in a way that is appealing to men. Turns out that a bunch of whorish women who love to give oral is what most men want. At least as far as sexual fantasy goes.
If you find some lesbian porn made for actual lesbians, I'm sure you'd notice the difference.

Really, the problem is men. They want to be dominant.
A woman who takes the dominant, selective role (usually reserved for men) is regarded as being a frigid ice-queen. A woman who doesn't represent enough challenge is regarded as a harlot. What men want are hard-to-get harlots.

Re:sexuality. I think the 'men want to be on top' rule applies here, too. Gay men and butch lesbians are in competition with straight men. That's why most straight men regard male homosexuality as being wrong, but just can't get enough hot, feminine lesbian porno. It's because feminine lesbians fit the 'hard-to-get harlot' criteria that appeals to men.

So. Uh. Burn men, move to Amazon?

 

[cantata]

Good lesbian porn is great. I was talking only about mainstream heterosexual pornography, which I think I made reasonably clear.

 

[DeathMagus]

Re: why women are often on their knees in pornography depicting oral sex - if the guy is standing up, where are they supposed to be? It's largely a function of the reletive locations of all the body parts involved. And, upon further reflection, I notice that oral sex is inherently a subservient position. When either gender performs it, it's essentially a sacrifice of one's direct sexual pleasure towards the goal of providing for one's partner. That's why it's a wonderful gesture for someone to do it for their partner - it means that they care enough about you to put their own pleasure on hold to provide for your needs and wants (ideally - perhaps they don't care and are simply looking for reciprication). But in reality, is our hypothetical average joe watching this in a porno and thinking about the interpersonal relationship? No, he's just thinking about how nice that would feel if it were being done to him.

Edit: I'll round this out. I, as well, find excessive control and/or manipulation by the man to be a complete turnoff, since, as you said, it makes the woman look like a mere masturbatory aid. I can understand it happening, however, because (in this particular situation) she is a masturbatory aid (such is the nature of porn). It's not my cup of tea, but I'd personally feel a little silly arguing that she should have a more equal role in the "relationship" being playing out on screen, especially since she's only on screen to please the (overwhelmingly male) viewer base.

Additionally, I'd like to state that I agree with Maxwell regarding the eroticness of women deriving sexual pleasure from performing various acts on their partners. It's basically the ultimate form of laziness - you can be a great partner without doing any work. Is it a completely implausible fantasy? You bet. Does it change the majority of men's outlooks regarding what women are really like? I'm more doubtful about this.

I personally am far more disturbed by the blatent abuse in some porn - the choking and slapping and such... than anything as subtle as the sort of thing you've objected to.

 

[cantata]

Re: why women are often on their knees in pornography depicting oral sex - if the guy is standing up, where are they supposed to be? It's largely a function of the reletive locations of all the body parts involved.

But that's just shifting the question. Why is the guy standing up?

And, upon further reflection, I notice that oral sex is inherently a subservient position. When either gender performs it, it's essentially a sacrifice of one's direct sexual pleasure towards the goal of providing for one's partner. That's why it's a wonderful gesture for someone to do it for their partner - it means that they care enough about you to put their own pleasure on hold to provide for your needs and wants (ideally - perhaps they don't care and are simply looking for reciprication). But in reality, is our hypothetical average joe watching this in a porno and thinking about the interpersonal relationship? No, he's just thinking about how nice that would feel if it were being done to him.

Sure, and that's fine. I'm not especially interested in what people think of the pornography they're watching.

Edit: I'll round this out. I, as well, find excessive control and/or manipulation by the man to be a complete turnoff, since, as you said, it makes the woman look like a mere masturbatory aid. I can understand it happening, however, because (in this particular situation) she is a masturbatory aid (such is the nature of porn). It's not my cup of tea, but I'd personally feel a little silly arguing that she should have a more equal role in the "relationship" being playing out on screen, especially since she's only on screen to please the (overwhelmingly male) viewer base.

Additionally, I'd like to state that I agree with Maxwell regarding the eroticness of women deriving sexual pleasure from performing various acts on their partners. It's basically the ultimate form of laziness - you can be a great partner without doing any work. Is it a completely implausible fantasy? You bet. Does it change the majority of men's outlooks regarding what women are really like? I'm more doubtful about this.

But this is absolutely NOT what I'm saying! Argh! *ahem*

I am not saying that pornography has a bad influence. (Perhaps it does, but I'm not trying to have that discussion here.) Nor am I saying that it should be like this or like that. I'm saying that it tells us a lot about what is expected, sexually, of men and women, and that I think that if those expectations change, so will pornography.

I personally am far more disturbed by the blatent abuse in some porn - the choking and slapping and such... than anything as subtle as the sort of thing you've objected to.

Well, as I said to stan, I didn't want to get explicit about some of the specific acts that bother me.

 

[stan1980]

Ah, but it really is the case. It is sometimes pretty subtle - it's in the realms of language, of attitudes, and of assumptions. I'm not suggesting that there are clauses in women's job contracts saying that they will never be allowed to be promoted above a certain point, or that most men beat their wives or chain them to the sink But if I may say so, it's much easier to notice this stuff if you're a woman (which is why I could really do with some more ladies in this thread!).

This is fine if you think that, but if you don't mind me saying, I think this is where the confusion has come in this thread. If the way you see most pornography is only the symptom of male attitudes to women, then why not devote most the time in this thread talking about the actual causes (as mentioned above) which are far more important IMO. You say you want gender equality, which can only be achieved by changing attitudes, then why not talk about the causes and attitudes that need to be changed. It seems to me, you've devoted all your time in this thread in the wrong place, if change is really what you want.

It would be like me starting a thread saying there are far too many car crashes in this country, and going on to spend all my time talking about what happens after a car crash, instead of describing how we can actually prevent car crashes. A car crash is a pretty apt analogy, as that's how I feel about this thread Sorry!

If you want my 2 cents, then yes, there still on the surface seems to be some gender inequality in the workplace from my experience. Almost every top job is taken by males. The thing is though, I've always worked in the finance industry, where it does tend to be very male orientated. For instance, when I studied economics at university, I'd say 80-90% of people on my course were males. I noticed in the last couple of years though, that there have been a lot more females being hired into entry level jobs, so maybe things are changing, but it will still take 10-20 years I'd say to see more women winning promotion to directors positions. On the flipside, I remember if you were a male looking for a job in a marketing position at my old company, you may as well forget about it. Every single position was filled by females. Whether it was because a female was in charge of that department, or whether she was instructed to hire females to try and balance the male-female quota I'm not quite sure, but it did seem a bit unfair, not that I bothered to say much about it.

 

[DeathMagus]

But that's just shifting the question. Why is the guy standing up?

Why not? Sometimes he's standing, other times he's sitting or reclining. I think you might be reading too much into it.

Sure, and that's fine. I'm not especially interested in what people think of the pornography they're watching.

If you want to hold a meaningful discussion regarding pornography's effect on how women are viewed in society, and vice-versa, then I think you need to. What the viewer is thinking, both during playback and after, is a crucial (I would wager the main) dynamic between pornography and how women are viewed in society.

But this is absolutely NOT what I'm saying! Argh! *ahem*

I am not saying that pornography has a bad influence. (Perhaps it does, but I'm not trying to have that discussion here.) Nor am I saying that it should be like this or like that. I'm saying that it tells us a lot about what is expected, sexually, of men and women, and that I think that if those expectations change, so will pornography.

Right - and I think the correlation between the two is more removed.

Well, as I said to stan, I didn't want to get explicit about some of the specific acts that bother me.

I apologize if I made you uncomfortable.

 

[Merlin]

Hi cantata
not everyone is like you.
Some of us have different tastes in sexual intimacy.
Just as some people would love a 2" thick T-bone steak and others think easting any meat is disgusting.

If I like certain exotic tastes or activities, allow me those pleasures.
If I don't, that's another issue.
But don't assume that we all feel about things as you do.

 

[cantata]

This is fine if you think that, but if you don't mind me saying, I think this is where the confusion has come in this thread. If the way you see most pornography is only the symptom of male attitudes to women, then why not devote most the time in this thread talking about the actual causes (as mentioned above) which are far more important IMO. You say you want gender equality, which can only be achieved by changing attitudes, then why not talk about the causes and attitudes that need to be changed. It seems to me, you've devoted all your time in this thread in the wrong place, if change is really what you want.

It's not my fault that people keep asking me about it

I actually mentioned a lot of other things in my first post, but they've been largely ignored. I really don't want to have a discussion about pornography. I used it as an illustrative example and people have got very excited about it. By all means address some of my other remarks in my initial post. I would welcome your comments with enthusiasm.

If you want my 2 cents, then yes, there still on the surface seems to be some gender inequality in the workplace from my experience. Almost every top job is taken by males. The thing is though, I've always worked in the finance industry, where it does tend to be very male orientated. For instance, when I studied economics at university, I'd say 80-90% of people on my course were males. I noticed in the last couple of years though, that there have been a lot more females being hired into entry level jobs, so maybe things are changing, but it will still take 10-20 years I'd say to see more women winning promotion to directors positions. On the flipside, I remember if you were a male looking for a job in a marketing position at my old company, you may as well forget about it. Every single position was filled by females. Whether it was because a female was in charge of that department, or whether she was instructed to hire females to try and balance the male-female quota I'm not quite sure, but it did seem a bit unfair, not that I bothered to say much about it.

Precisely what I'm talking about.

Why not? Sometimes he's standing, other times he's sitting or reclining. I think you might be reading too much into it.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you want to hold a meaningful discussion regarding pornography's effect on how women are viewed in society, and vice-versa, then I think you need to. What the viewer is thinking, both during playback and after, is a crucial (I would wager the main) dynamic between pornography and how women are viewed in society.

You're right. But I actually don't and didn't particularly want to have this discussion. I am, in the context of this thread, vaguely interested in what kinds of pornography are popular. I am not interested in the effects pornography has on people. Start a thread, if you are.

I apologize if I made you uncomfortable.

Not at all - I just don't want another infraction

Hi cantata

That's me!

not everyone is like you.
Some of us have different tastes in sexual intimacy.
Just as some people would love a 2" thick T-bone steak and others think easting any meat is disgusting.

If I like certain exotic tastes or activities, allow me those pleasures.
If I don't, that's another issue.
But don't assume that we all feel about things as you do.

I'm pretty certain I made no such assumptions. This thread is about finding ourselves in a place where more people can sexually express themselves as they choose.

I suspect - please correct me if I'm wrong - that you fall into a category of people where there are few inhibitions to you doing precisely what you want with regards to sexual intimacy, in the sense that the ideal, for you, is monogamous heterosexuality, probably with a single life partner. And that's great! I am totally in favour of you living up to that ideal. Go for it. I would not have it any other way.

But not all of us have that ideal. I want to live in a world where that's okay, and what's more, where it's safe and positive to be able to live up to other ideals for sexual intimacy without fear of physical or social repercussions.

 

[PassionFruit]

Yeah, I was hoping to discuss bi-sexuality among men, and why it seems men are more likely to be open this. I wonder about certain things with men, like if a man finds another man attractive will he began to start thinking he's gay because he noticed? There's nothing wrong with noticing another guy is attractive.

 

[Maxwell511]

It's a fair theory, and perhaps a partial explanation. I like the little dig at feminism there

It wasn't a dig. The feminist movement was one of the greatest movements of the 20th century. It changed the world for the better.

I don't really understand the modern feminist movement though. It doesn't seem to be working for any change all it seems to be is saying that society is anti-women and claiming things like porn and tv cause this. It seems the same as saying computer games cause our kids to be violent.

But you haven't accounted for other features of the caricature. Why is she on her knees (both literally and metaphorically speaking)?

I am guessing physics. To be honest I am not that too familiar with porn, but the type that I have watched would be the oral thing followed by the woman on top. The claim of submissiveness would be a matter of editing.

Various sources suggest to me that at least some women do find it degrading, but I take your point. I am not trying to suggest that it's degrading to all women. On the other hand, I think that some things can be subtly repressive, even if the people involved vehemently deny that they are.

Would things that are subtly repressive include defining some sexual activities as wrong?

This may well be true. I'm not suggesting that gender inequality is consciously perpetuated by the majority of people. I'm pretty sure I've never said anything to that effect in this thread, in fact. But it is absolutely still there and it needs to change if we are to be in a situation where women can enjoy their sexuality (among other things) to its fullest extent.

So you approve of them enjoying it to their fullest extent until they give a man oral sex to be recorded and sold?

What you fail to see is that as long as there is gender bias in the world, the problems facing the genders, and therefore the examples of what does and does not constitute discrimination, will be different. It's nothing inherently to do with men or women. It is as a result of the gender-biased world in which we live.

Sure.

 

[cantata]

It wasn't a dig. The feminist movement was one of the greatest movements of the 20th century. It changed the world for the better.

I don't really understand the modern feminist movement though. It doesn't seem to be working for any change all it seems to be is saying that society is anti-women and claiming things like porn and tv cause this. It seems the same as saying computer games cause our kids to be violent.

There is still gender bias in society. I personally do not think pornography as it is today is a cause of that, but a symptom. It doesn't seem to matter how often I repeat this, though; everyone wants to paint me as wanting to police pornography.

I am guessing physics. To be honest I am not that too familiar with porn, but the type that I have watched would be the oral thing followed by the woman on top. The claim of submissiveness would be a matter of editing.

Mm, well, watch more porn and get back to me

Would things that are subtly repressive include defining some sexual activities as wrong?

The only sexual activities which are wrong, if you want to use the word "wrong" (I prefer not to) are non-consensual sexual activities.

So you approve of them enjoying it to their fullest extent until they give a man oral sex to be recorded and sold?

No, I approve of them enjoying it to its fullest extent - full-stop, end of remark. It is entirely women's business what they want to record themselves doing and sell. I simply hope that the demand for pornography where women appear performing oral sex in the way they frequently appear performing it in current mainstream pornography is much lower. I don't think that's particularly hard to understand.

 

[Braunwyn]

There is still gender bias in society. I personally do not think pornography as it is today is a cause of that, but a symptom. It doesn't seem to matter how often I repeat this, though; everyone wants to paint me as wanting to police pornography.

You have been pretty darn clear. Perhaps your point is making some uncomfortable? Maybe a bolded larger font will help.

 

[DeathMagus]

You have been pretty darn clear. Perhaps your point is making some uncomfortable?

(note: This is a general reply, not directed specifically at Braunwyn)

I, however, do not think this is the case. Cantata holds that current trends in pornography are the symptoms of certain social biases. All I and several others have attempted to point out is that many trends in pornography are independent of social bias altogether, and instead are the result of other factors.

Essentially, the way I see it, Cantata is stating - "Pornography is this way because of causes X, Y, and Z!"

All I'm trying to say is "Actually, while it may look that way, it seems more likely that pornography is the way it is because of causes M, N, and Q - which aren't related to social bias against women."

Of course, there are exceptions - there are some aspects of pornography that I do think are the result of X, Y, and Z - they're just neither mainstream nor the examples Cantata used.

Oh, and Cantata? Probably the reason I personally don't discuss much else in this thread is because I already agreed with you regarding your other points of discussion, and already voiced my exact opinions in my first response.

I figured I should try to salvage this discussion.

 

[stan1980]

It's not my fault that people keep asking me about it

Fair enough

I actually mentioned a lot of other things in my first post, but they've been largely ignored. I really don't want to have a discussion about pornography. I used it as an illustrative example and people have got very excited about it. By all means address some of my other remarks in my initial post. I would welcome your comments with enthusiasm.

Ok

Gender roles in the realm of sexuality need to be seriously rethought. Clichéd as it is, the madonna/harlot complex is alive and well.. etc

Couldn't agree more. I think it is unfair women get called derogatory names if they sleep with a lot of partners. I think most males just don't like to think that person they are sleeping with has had a lot of previous partners. From a personal point of view, when I'm sleeping with someone, I would never ask her (anymore) how many partners they have had, because I know I wont like the answer. I'm not naive enough to think every girl I sleep with has only had 1 or 2 partners, which is why I don't ask the question (anymore). It shouldn't really bother me, but I just prefer not knowing. So quite simply, I just don't ask. I fully admit though, that is a flaw in my character, although in general I wouldn't look down on a girl even if they have slept with 50 or 100 guys or whatever.

As far as masturbation is concerned, in this day and age, I don't think any guys around my age would care less if their partner masturbates, nor would they care if they heard women talking about masturbation (in fact they would probably quite welcome it!). A fair few women do tend to still be quite coy on the subject, but I don't think that is the fault of males.

We need to find ways of making it easier for women to protect themselves sexually.

Well, yeah, it's not that hard to ask a guy to put on a condom, if he is about to go in bareback.

Non-heterosexuality must make its way into the mainstream.

Where have you been the last 10 years? Non-heterosexuality is in the mainstream in the UK now. It is any every soap opera, every newspaper, quite a few movies, and there are more gay bars and clubs than you could shake a stick at now.

Precisely what I'm talking about.

I'm only talking about the industry I know about, but if you want a top job working for an investment bank or an asset management company you are going to need the right qualifications. I'm going to make a sweeping generalisation, but I think it is accurate to say most women are more interested in studying stuff like social sciences; psychology, sociology etc. Quite honestly that sort of stuff isn't really going to get you very far in the corporate world, so it shouldn't really be a shock to see that there aren't that many women holding top positions.


Edit: and just a quick question, when you are talking about women being degraded in porn, who precisely do you mean? The actual women who is acting, or do you mean the actual act degrades all women? The reason I ask is because you seem quite fine about prostitution from what I have gathered in previous threads, but I would think that is even more degrading.

 

[cantata]

Couldn't agree more. I think it is unfair women get called derogatory names if they sleep with a lot of partners. I think most males just don't like to think that person they are sleeping with has had a lot of previous partners. From a personal point of view, when I'm sleeping with someone, I would never ask her (anymore) how many partners they have had, because I know I wont like the answer. I'm not naive enough to think every girl I sleep with has only had 1 or 2 partners, which is why I don't ask the question (anymore). It shouldn't really bother me, but I just prefer not knowing. So quite simply, I just don't ask. I fully admit though, that is a flaw in my character, although in general I wouldn't look down on a girl even if they have slept with 50 or 100 guys or whatever.

The only interest I have in my partners' sexual history is their sexual health. Well, and any hot stories they have to tell

The point I want to make is that there are two opposing concepts in what is expected of women, and it's difficult, realistically, to find a comfortable balance without either guilt or frustration.

As far as masturbation is concerned, in this day and age, I don't think any guys around my age would care less if their partner masturbates, nor would they care if they heard women talking about masturbation (in fact they would probably quite welcome it!). A fair few women do tend to still be quite coy on the subject, but I don't think that is the fault of males.

Gender bias is not always "the fault of males". I'm talking about subtle things, like the way parents (mostly mothers, even) describe their children's genitals - "willy" for boys vs. "down there" for girls, for example - and the mere fact that girls' genitals are tucked away and hence less obviously there for them to play with than boys'.

Then there's the subtle insinuation from things like sanitary towel adverts that women's genitals are dirty and disgusting. This is where I get accused of "reading too much into things" I'm pretty much assuming I won't be taken seriously at this point, but then, it may surprise you to know that I know women who use applicator tampons because they are extremely reluctant to put their fingers anywhere near their genitals. Then there's a whole load of nonsense about what counts as virginity for women. And there's the handy excuse for men that not masturbating means a build-up of sperm, so they have to do it, while women in communities that have a moral objection to masturbation-for-fun have no excuse.

I really believe that these things do have an effect on women's own attitudes towards masturbation and towards their bodies in general.

Well, yeah, it's not that hard to ask a guy to put on a condom, if he is about to go in bareback.

No, you're wrong. It is extremely difficult for many of us.

Where have you been the last 10 years? Non-heterosexuality is in the mainstream in the UK now. It is any every soap opera, every newspaper, quite a few movies, and there are more gay bars and clubs than you could shake a stick at now.

Sure, but it's still "different" and "the other".

I'm only talking about the industry I know about, but if you want a top job working for an investment bank or an asset management company you are going to need the right qualifications. I'm going to make a sweeping generalisation, but I think it is accurate to say most women are more interested in studying stuff like social sciences; psychology, sociology etc. Quite honestly that sort of stuff isn't really going to get you very far in the corporate world, so it shouldn't really be a shock to see that there aren't that many women holding top positions.

Why do you think women are "more interested in studying stuff like social sciences; psychology, sociology etc."?

Edit: and just a quick question, when you are talking about women being degraded in porn, who precisely do you mean? The actual women who is acting, or do you mean the actual act degrades all women? The reason I ask is because you seem quite fine about prostitution from what I have gathered in previous threads, but I would think that is even more degrading.

I believe that the way that certain acts are portrayed in a lot of pornography is degrading to the female characters in that pornography. The actresses who are performing the acts or having them performed on them may or may not feel degraded by those acts. But the characters they portray - and hence the archetype of the sexually 'liberated' woman - are degraded.

Most prostitution probably is degrading. You'll notice, however, that I want neither pornography nor prostitution to be illegal.

 

[stan1980]

The only interest I have in my partners' sexual history is their sexual health. Well, and any hot stories they have to tell

The point I want to make is that there are two opposing concepts in what is expected of women, and it's difficult, realistically, to find a comfortable balance without either guilt or frustration.

Yeah, I understand. It's quite contradicting when one minute you hear some guy calling a woman a slag or something, then the next minute telling you a story about how some other woman wouldn't put out. It's quite school boyish and those sorts of people are obviously lacking in rational thought and aren't the sort of people I would normally associate myself with. I think you'd be surprised though, that most guys (at the very least who I know), don't think like that anymore. I think the guys who do behave like that are in the minority, but they do stand out so I think it's entirely possible that it seems like that there are more of them than there actually are.

Gender bias is not always "the fault of males". I'm talking about subtle things, like the way parents (mostly mothers, even) describe their children's genitals - "willy" for boys vs. "down there" for girls, for example - and the mere fact that girls' genitals are tucked away and hence less obviously there for them to play with than boys'.

Then there's the subtle insinuation from things like sanitary towel adverts that women's genitals are dirty and disgusting. This is where I get accused of "reading too much into things" I'm pretty much assuming I won't be taken seriously at this point, but then, it may surprise you to know that I know women who use applicator tampons because they are extremely reluctant to put their fingers anywhere near their genitals. Then there's a whole load of nonsense about what counts as virginity for women. And there's the handy excuse for men that not masturbating means a build-up of sperm, so they have to do it, while women in communities that have a moral objection to masturbation-for-fun have no excuse.

I really believe that these things do have an effect on women's own attitudes towards masturbation and towards their bodies in general.

There is certainly some food for thought there. I've barely known any women to use the towel thingys as they are apparently less hygenic, so again, maybe times are changing and women of our generation aren't so bothered about sticking tampons up there wotsits. Funnily enough, my mate was on the phone to me the other day asking me if you can get tampons for men in boots to put up your bum as he had a bad case of the runs. Needless to say I was in hysterics for a good few minutes!

No, you're wrong. It is extremely difficult for many of us.

I don't know why, if it's the first time I've been with a girl, and we've been "making out" as the americans put it, and she asks me if I have any condoms I think hallelujah, there is definitely going to be some action here. I can see why it might seem a bit presumptuous if you ask while you are still partially dressed, but if you are both butt naked then you both have a good idea of what is about to happen, so I don't really see the problem with asking.

Sure, but it's still "different" and "the other".

You have to admit though, things are moving in the right direction. I'm only a little older than you, but believe me things have changed a lot from what I remember when I was a teenager both in the media and socially.

Why do you think women are "more interested in studying stuff like social sciences; psychology, sociology etc."?

I'm not entirely sure. If I had my time again though, I probably would have preferred to have studied a course like that as they seem more interesting. Possibly, I think males are brought up to be more bred winners, and on the surface it might seem like those sort of courses don't really give you a wide variety of career options. Where as females maybe don't have the same pressures, so can afford to spend time studying more interesting subjects. Quite honestly though, I'm not entirely sure, I'd be interested in hearing your theories though if you have any.

I believe that the way that certain acts are portrayed in a lot of pornography is degrading to the female characters in that pornography. The actresses who are performing the acts or having them performed on them may or may not feel degraded by those acts. But the characters they portray - and hence the archetype of the sexually 'liberated' woman - are degraded.

Most prostitution probably is degrading. You'll notice, however, that I want neither pornography nor prostitution to be illegal.

Okay, I think I know where you are coming from now, although I'd still say it's very subjective.

 

[SallyNow]

Excellent, well-thought OP. You bring up a lot points that do need to be seriously addressed by both academia and the mainstream.

However, there's one thing I really do not agree with:

Steezie started a great thread about how we're growing towards a world in which our attitudes towards sexuality, and our sexual behaviours, are intelligently informed by the lessons of both ultimate sexual permissiveness in the '60s and '70s, and the sexually repressive backlash that followed it. We want a world where people can be sexually expressive without being exploited or exploitative; where they can enjoy many relationships on a sexual level without being at risk of emotional unrest, unwanted pregnancy, or disease.

While the choice should be there for men and women to be able to have many relationships throughout their lives if they so choose, it shouldn't be an expectation. If a couple meets early and chooses to devote themselves to each other, including sexually, that should be a totally acceptable choice too.

And, I'm not sure if we can entirely seperate sex from emotions. I don't think this is even a desired goal for many. It may be for some, but some others may not choose it so, and they shouldn't be made to feel like they must seperate the two (if that wasn't what you meant, I'm sorry I misunderstood. oh dear. There's my Canadianness coming out...)

That said, the rest of your post is excellent, and spot-on about some of the issues that still exist today.

 

[cantata]

While the choice should be there for men and women to be able to have many relationships throughout their lives if they so choose, it shouldn't be an expectation. If a couple meets early and chooses to devote themselves to each other, including sexually, that should be a totally acceptable choice too.

Did I say that it isn't?

I think what I said is that "We want a world where people can be sexually expressive without being exploited or exploitative; where they can enjoy many relationships on a sexual level without being at risk of emotional unrest, unwanted pregnancy, or disease."

I've said throughout this thread that I have no problem with people who don't want this for themselves. I simply want to live in a world where it's acceptable and safe for people to choose this path.

And, I'm not sure if we can entirely seperate sex from emotions. I don't think this is even a desired goal for many. It may be for some, but some others may not choose it so, and they shouldn't be made to feel like they must seperate the two (if that wasn't what you meant, I'm sorry I misunderstood. oh dear. There's my Canadianness coming out...)

I would hate sex to be separated from emotions when people don't want to do so. I have no idea where you got the impression that I want to see them separated. Sex is deeply emotional for most people, myself included. The problem I see is that people, and especially women, are given unreasonable emotional expectations for sex. Sex can't be expected to make people fall in love with you, and nor can anyone expect that only people who love them will want to have sex with them.

That said, the rest of your post is excellent, and spot-on about some of the issues that still exist today.

Thanks!

 

[Athene]

As long as women tolerate pornography there will never be gender equality. As long as we believe the lie that pornography is sexual liberation there will never be gender equality. Female focused porn is not the answer here, Susan Brownmiller says it well “There can be no equality in porn, no female equivalent, no turning of the tables in the name of bawdy fun. Pornography, like rape, is a male invention, designed to dehumanize women . . . Pornography is the undiluted essence of anti-female propaganda.”