Go to Calvinist School....

[JTM3]

As the title states, I go to a Calvinist school, because its the only Christian school that's closest to where I live. It's a great school, but being a WOfer, and listening to their chapels (we have a 10 minute chapel every Wednesday and Friday) they tend to have a lot of depressing sermons. They're the typical seminary unbelief type stuff. (My dad has a good expression for this; I don't know if he came up with it or heard it somewhere, but it goes like this: "Seminaries are scemetaries"; too true.)

It's bad enough having to be in Reformed Doctrine every day (although we've finished the secition on Calvinisim/TULIP), but then it got worse...well, at least I haven't forgotten that chapel yet, and I doubt I will. The teachers take turns giving chapels, and then each class does. Well, it was this one teachers turn to give chapel. (I won't mention his name.)

His topic was "God is in control of every little thing." He put emphasis on the phrase "EVERY little thing" like I've never heard before; now I knew Calvinists believe God is soverign in salvation, but before this I never really conceived of anyone actually beleiving that God controls EVERYTHING!!!

And all of you know the consequences of this belief/doctrine. And I can't bear to think about it! That is illogical, its peridoxical, my vocabulary is too small to express it!!!!!!!!!!!

It boils down to one sentence: How can God be a God of "love" if he saves and at the same time?????????

And the Calvinists respond with: "God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy", and "God loved Jacob but d Enoch"; you probably know the drill. Ugh

Help please!!! So confused. There wonderful people, this ic belief aside.........

 

[victoryword]

As the title states, I go to a Calvinist school, because its the only Christian school that's closest to where I live. It's a great school, but being a WOfer, and listening to their chapels (we have a 10 minute chapel every Wednesday and Friday) they tend to have a lot of depressing sermons. They're the typical seminary unbelief type stuff. (My dad has a good expression for this; I don't know if he came up with it or heard it somewhere, but it goes like this: "Seminaries are scemetaries"; too true.)

It's bad enough having to be in Reformed Doctrine every day (although we've finished the secition on Calvinisim/TULIP), but then it got worse...well, at least I haven't forgotten that chapel yet, and I doubt I will. The teachers take turns giving chapels, and then each class does. Well, it was this one teachers turn to give chapel. (I won't mention his name.)

His topic was "God is in control of every little thing." He put emphasis on the phrase "EVERY little thing" like I've never heard before; now I knew Calvinists believe God is soverign in salvation, but before this I never really conceived of anyone actually beleiving that God controls EVERYTHING!!!

And all of you know the consequences of this belief/doctrine. And I can't bear to think about it! That is illogical, its peridoxical, my vocabulary is too small to express it!!!!!!!!!!!

It boils down to one sentence: How can God be a God of "love" if he saves and at the same time?????????

And the Calvinists respond with: "God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy", and "God loved Jacob but d Enoch"; you probably know the drill. Ugh

Help please!!! So confused. There wonderful people, this ic belief aside.........

My first advice. Leave that school. If you MUST get an education, trust God to send you to a school even if it is some distance away from you or do a distance learning college program that will not drain your faith.

Second, write me at victoryword@yahoo.com and I will send you an electronic book refuting Calvinism. I also recommend putting some bucks together and buying an excellent book titled The Other Side of Calvinism by a Baptist preacher named Laurence M. Vance. This book is excellent and exposes Calvinist doictrines by quiting them (in context) and refuting them with SCRIPTURE.

I myself will be working on some anti-calvinist articles this year.

 

[godson777]

I know how you feel brother!

I went to an Anglican school and we would have preachers come in and tell us that these prosperity people were twisting the gospel to get more people into their churches and that prosperity and healing aren't promises of God and they would preach such negative condeming messages and I would feel SOOOOOO drained after listening to it and Anglicans would come up to me and try to prove and argue against the promises of God and stuff like that. I HATED it! I know how you feel brother! Get a hold of the material victoryword was telling you about, it will give you some ammo to fight back with.

I love ya bro! I reckon I can relate to you pretty well! Just stand firm in the truth of the Word and you will be rewarded!

Blessings!

 

[KingZzub]

Hands up.

I have been there too.

I went to a traditional Pentecostal Bible college.

Apparently:

1) The early Pentecostals were fanatics.

2) Kenneth Copeland is the biggest and most dangerous fanatic in the body of Christ.

3) Anyone who believes in 6-day creation is wrong. We had lectures on the ape-to-man stuff.

4) The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at salvation. Tongues is not for everyone.

5) The greatest wisdom in the church is in the Orthodox churches.

6) If you believe Jesus Died Spiritually, you are not a Christian.

7) If you believe Jesus died for sicknesses, you know nothing about the pastoral ministry.

THESE ARE PENTECOSTALS!!

Cheers,
|Z|

 

[victoryword]

Hands up.

I have been there too.

I went to a traditional Pentecostal Bible college.

Apparently:

1) The early Pentecostals were fanatics.

2) Kenneth Copeland is the biggest and most dangerous fanatic in the body of Christ.

3) Anyone who believes in 6-day creation is wrong. We had lectures on the ape-to-man stuff.

4) The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at salvation. Tongues is not for everyone.

5) The greatest wisdom in the church is in the Orthodox churches.

6) If you believe Jesus Died Spiritually, you are not a Christian.

7) If you believe Jesus died for sicknesses, you know nothing about the pastoral ministry.

THESE ARE PENTECOSTALS!!

Cheers,
|Z|

Ironic, isn't it? I dealt with this same issue concerning Charismatics on another thread (see here). On page four of that thread I posted a sad dilemma concerning Pentecostals written by a classic Pentecostal:

========================================================

Some Pentecostals Are Now Denying Initial Evidence Doctrine


Donald C. Stamps, referring to an article written in "Christianity Today, November 21, 1986, entitled 'Signs and Wonders in New Orleans', which enumerated many changes that have occurred within traditional Pentecostalism" says:

The Christianity Today article affirms that Pentecostals are relaxing their position on the crucial importance of the doctrine of speaking in tongues as the essential evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The article states "Pentecostals generally maintained <again the verb is put in the past tense> that the baptism in the Spirit must be accompanied by tongues." The article states that belief in speaking in tongues as the evidence of the baptism in the Spirit is no longer thought to be so vital by Pentecostals as to stand in the way of organizational unity with many Charismatics who oppose the belief.​

Now Pentecostals are joining the Charismatics in denying the need for speaking in tongues. I think we can come up with a new branch of Charismatics. We have "Charismatic Baptists" and "Charismatic Lutherans" and "Charismatic Catholics" etc. Now we can create a new group called the "Charismatic Cessationists."

 

[KingZzub]

We had a wonderful preacher and healing evangelist in our denomination. A true man of God, a classic Pentecostal pioneer, preached with Harold Horton, George Jeffries and Gordon Fee.

He left our denomination to work with Reinhard Bonnke... couldn't stand the way the movement was going.

I saw him once at the college in tears because the students were being taught against divine healing and initial evidence.

If you look at the God's Will Is Healing Thread there is a lively discussion about how the classic view of Pentecostalism has changed vitally when it comes to healing.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[victoryword]

We had a wonderful preacher and healing evangelist in our denomination. A true man of God, a classic Pentecostal pioneer, preached with Harold Horton, George Jeffries and Gordon Fee.

He left our denomination to work with Reinhard Bonnke... couldn't stand the way the movement was going.

I saw him once at the college in tears because the students were being taught against divine healing and initial evidence.

If you look at the God's Will Is Healing Thread there is a lively discussion about how the classic view of Pentecostalism has changed vitally when it comes to healing.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

Zzub

I have read some of the thread. Will take time to read more. But you share my very thoughts my being a student of Charismatic/Pentecostal history.

I don't know if you have ever been on my web page but I have an article refuting the Assemblies of God's position paper on positive confession. If you haven't then check it out here. I also demonstrate in my article how far the A/G has strayed from its roots.

 

[Salesian]

Hey JTM3,

Sorry your other thread was closed on the "ask a calvinist" subforum. You were kind of a tiger puppy, so I can understand, but still, you were "asking calvinists"!

Well, you can tell, I'm not a Calvinist, I'm a Catholic, right.... but having been a Calvinist, I can recommend a book by Dr. Greg Bahnsen, it's called "Always Ready." If you go to a Calvinist school, then this book should be on the shelves in the bookstore, or at least some of your classmates should have it. We calvinists like to have little personal libraries. Well, I'm not "we calvinists" but anyways.

Section 5 "Answers to Apologetic Challenges" Chapter 30, "The Problem of Evil" will probably set forth an excellent answer to what you're wondering about, from a Calvinist POV. It's geared more towards unbelievers/atheists, but it is from a calvinist perspective. So don't buy it just for that chapter, but probably you could read it in 15 min. or so in the bookstore.

The WMCOF, which is a monumental Calvinist confession of faith, explicitly denies God being the "author of sin." You probably have a copy of it, go to Chapter 5 "Of Providence" art. 4 says:

The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is, nor can be, the author or approver of sin.

So, yeah, we would both disagree to some extent with most of the above, but I think it's unfair to just accuse Calvinists with something that one of the most highly respected Calvinist Confessions outright denies. It has to be understood within a system, the Calvinist system. That system is set forth partly in Ch. 5, Ch. 3 "Of God's Eternal Decree" , and also I'd recommend Ch. 9, "On Free Will" in the WMCOF.

In short, man's free will and the theoretical options that God leaves open to man leave all the fault with the man for the sin. At least that's what the WMCOF and the 17th century Calvinist Reformed Chrisians taught. People have different views on it I guess, maybe your teacher sees it differently.

 

[KingZzub]

Zzub

I have read some of the thread. Will take time to read more. But you share my very thoughts my being a student of Charismatic/Pentecostal history.

I don't know if you have ever been on my web page but I have an article refuting the Assemblies of God's position paper on positive confession. If you haven't then check it out here. I also demonstrate in my article how far the A/G has strayed from its roots.

Lol...

Read your website... I have read everything on it several times. Some days it was the only thing that kept me sane during my Bible College days. The amount of times I have thanked God for it is loads and loads.

I studied Pentecostal History at Bible College and had access to the Elim archives, sermons by George Jeffries, Smith Wigglesworth, Brewster and others.

Reading those sermons crystalised my faith, and broke my heart - how can people who call themselves Pentecostals today be so far from the gospel that started the movement?

Cheers.
|ZZ|

 

[victoryword]

Lol...

Read your website... I have read everything on it several times. Some days it was the only thing that kept me sane during my Bible College days. The amount of times I have thanked God for it is loads and loads.

I studied Pentecostal History at Bible College and had access to the Elim archives, sermons by George Jeffries, Smith Wigglesworth, Brewster and others.

Reading those sermons crystalised my faith, and broke my heart - how can people who call themselves Pentecostals today be so far from the gospel that started the movement?

Cheers.
|ZZ|

Thanks Zzub

I seem to have that effect on students in Pentecostal Bible colleges

I have a friend who attends Central Bible College here in the USA who writes me occasionally to due to some of his professors and their anti-wof/pro-calvinist stance. Really sad to hear about such things in Bible colleges that claim to be Pentecostal.

I wish that I could get access to that material you mention from Pentecostal Pioneers. I love the classic stuff. I am also wanting to get some of WV Grant's books (the first WV Grant - the Pentecostal pioneer, not his son). Ever read anything by him?

 

[KingZzub]

Yes, I have ... there was a sermon by him on the New Zealand prophetic web ring site...

The one Andrew Strom maintained.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[bluered]

Its in the bible so either the blible contradicts itself

or the God of the bible is a cruel God

 

[JTM3]

Hey JTM3,

Sorry your other thread was closed on the "ask a calvinist" subforum. You were kind of a tiger puppy, so I can understand, but still, you were "asking calvinists"!

Well, you can tell, I'm not a Calvinist, I'm a Catholic, right.... but having been a Calvinist, I can recommend a book by Dr. Greg Bahnsen, it's called "Always Ready." If you go to a Calvinist school, then this book should be on the shelves in the bookstore, or at least some of your classmates should have it. We calvinists like to have little personal libraries. Well, I'm not "we calvinists" but anyways.

Section 5 "Answers to Apologetic Challenges" Chapter 30, "The Problem of Evil" will probably set forth an excellent answer to what you're wondering about, from a Calvinist POV. It's geared more towards unbelievers/atheists, but it is from a calvinist perspective. So don't buy it just for that chapter, but probably you could read it in 15 min. or so in the bookstore.

The WMCOF, which is a monumental Calvinist confession of faith, explicitly denies God being the "author of sin." You probably have a copy of it, go to Chapter 5 "Of Providence" art. 4 says:

The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is, nor can be, the author or approver of sin.

So, yeah, we would both disagree to some extent with most of the above, but I think it's unfair to just accuse Calvinists with something that one of the most highly respected Calvinist Confessions outright denies. It has to be understood within a system, the Calvinist system. That system is set forth partly in Ch. 5, Ch. 3 "Of God's Eternal Decree" , and also I'd recommend Ch. 9, "On Free Will" in the WMCOF.

In short, man's free will and the theoretical options that God leaves open to man leave all the fault with the man for the sin. At least that's what the WMCOF and the 17th century Calvinist Reformed Chrisians taught. People have different views on it I guess, maybe your teacher sees it differently.

Well, maybe "tiger puppy" is a little of an understatement...try fleet of nuke ers. Anyways, I totally deserved the reprisal I got. Got to say though, coming from a family that believes in Kenneth Copeland's teachings on victory and such, to a school where some people even think that God is the cause of everything that goes on in this world, that'll drain your faith like being in valley will suck the life out of you. But, they're good people.

Oh well, can't say I'd have anything more to say, 'cause I tend to ramble.

JTM3