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Gnostic Perspectives
- Thread starter Soulgazer
- Start date
As the Savior was sitting in the temple in the three hundredth (year) of the covenant and the agreement of the tenth pillar, and being satisfied with the number of the living, incorruptible Majesty, he said to me, "Peter, blessed are those above belonging to the Father, who revealed life to those who are from the life, through me, since I reminded they who are built on what is strong, that they may hear my word, and distinguish words of unrighteousness and transgression of law from righteousness, as being from the height of every word of this Pleroma of truth, having been enlightened in good pleasure by him whom the principalities sought. But they did not find him, nor was he mentioned among any generation of the prophets. He has now appeared among these, in him who appeared, who is the Son of Man, who is exalted above the heavens in a fear of men of like essence. But you yourself, Peter, become perfect in accordance with your name with myself, the one who chose you, because from you I have established a base for the remnant whom I have summoned to knowledge. Therefore be strong until the imitation of righteousness - of him who had summoned you, having summoned you to know him in a way which is worth doing because of the rejection which happened to him, and the sinews of his hands and his feet, and the crowning by those of the middle region, and the body of his radiance which they bring in hope of service because of a reward of honor - as he was about to reprove you three times in this night." And as he was saying these things, I saw the priests and the people running up to us with stones, as if they would kill us; and I was afraid that we were going to die.
And he said to me, "Peter, I have told you many times that they are blind ones who have no guide. If you want to know their blindness, put your hands upon (your) eyes - your robe - and say what you see."
But when I had done it, I did not see anything. I said "No one sees (this way)."
Again he told me, "Do it again."
And there came in me fear with joy, for I saw a new light greater than the light of day. Then it came down upon the Savior. And I told him about those things which I saw.
And he said to me again, "Lift up your hands and listen to what the priests and the people are saying."
And I listened to the priests as they sat with the scribes. The multitudes were shouting with their voice.
When he heard these things from me he said to me, "Prick up your ears and listen to the things they are saying."
And I listened again, "As you sit, they are praising you".
And when I said these things, the Savior said, "I have told you that these (people) are blind and deaf. Now then, listen to the things which they are telling you in a mystery, and guard them, Do not tell them to the sons of this age. For they shall blaspheme you in these ages since they are ignorant of you, but they will praise you in knowledge."
"For many will accept our teaching in the beginning. And they will turn from them again by the will of the Father of their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e., the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And the guileless, good, pure one they push to the worker of death, and to the kingdom of those who praise Christ in a restoration. And they praise the men of the propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law." Warning that some will idolize His death and ignore his commandment to clean the inside of the cup
"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching. And they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: (those) who stand in (the) strength of the archons, of a man and a naked woman who is manifold and subject to much suffering. And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption."
"For evil cannot produce good fruit. For the place from which each of them is produces that which is like itself; for not every soul is of the truth, nor of immortality. For every soul of these ages has death assigned to it in our view, because it is always a slave, since it is created for its desires and their eternal destruction, in which they are and from which they are. They love the creatures of the matter which came forth with them."
"But the immortal souls are not like these, O Peter. But indeed, as long as the hour is not yet come, it (the immortal soul) shall resemble a mortal one. But it shall not reveal its nature, that it alone is the immortal one, and thinks about immortality, having faith, and desiring to renounce these things."
"For people do not gather figs from thorns or from thorn trees, if they are wise, nor grapes from thistles. For, on the one hand, that which is always becoming is in that from which it is, being from what is not good, which becomes destruction for it and death. But that which comes to be in the Eternal One is in the One of the life and the immortality of the life which they resemble."
"Therefore all that which exists not will dissolve into what exists not. For deaf and blind ones join only with their own kind."
"But others shall change from evil words and misleading mysteries. Some who do not understand mystery speak of things which they do not understand, but they will boast that the mystery of the truth is theirs alone. And in haughtiness they shall grasp at pride, to envy the immortal soul which has become a pledge. For every authority, rule, and power of the aeons wishes to be with these in the creation of the world, in order that those who are not, having been forgotten by those that are, may praise them, though they have not been saved, nor have they been brought to the Way by them, always wishing that they may become imperishable ones. For if the immortal soul receives power in an intellectual spirit -. But immediately they join with one of those who misled them." Its a matter of the heart- to become "nice" is better than a bitter intelectualism
"But many others, who oppose the truth and are the messengers of error, will set up their error and their law against these pure thoughts of mine, as looking out from one (perspective) thinking that good and evil are from one (source). The True God is Good, and all that are his reflect this Goodness They do business in my word. And they will propagate harsh fate. The race of immortal souls will go in it in vain, until my Parousia. For they shall come out of them - and my forgiveness of their transgressions, into which they fell through their adversaries, whose ransom I got from the slavery in which they were, to give them freedom that they may create an imitation remnant in the name of a dead man, who is Hermas, Beware of "prophets" who listen to angels! of the first-born of unrighteousness, in order that the light which exists may not believed by the little ones. But those of this sort are the workers who will be cast into the outer darkness, away from the sons of light. For neither will they enter, nor do they permit those who are going up to their approval for their release."
"And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishment of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, (and) whom they took prisoner." committing an evil in the name of God is still an evil
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals." Christ and politics don't mix!
But I said " I am afraid because of what you have told me, that indeed little (ones) are, in our view, the counterfeit ones, indeed, that there are multitudes that will mislead other multitudes of living ones, and destroy them among themselves. And when they speak your name they will be believed."
The Savior said, "For a time determined for them in proportion to their error they will rule over the little ones. And after the completion of the error, the never-aging one of the immortal understanding shall become young, and they (the little ones) shall rule over those who are their rulers. The root of their error he shall pluck out, and he shall put it to shame so that it shall be manifest in all the impudence which it has assumed to itself. And such ones shall become unchangeable, O Peter." the time is coming when the Truth is poured out on the world
"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will put them to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them." Gnosis comes only to an open mind and heart
When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me." Fear not those that have only power to harm the flesh
But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place."
But he said to me, "I have told you, 'Leave the blind alone!'. And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame." I am not my body
And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was <filled> with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed.
And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking at those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma, which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit." Salvation is of the heart, understanding is of the intellect
"These things, then, which you saw you shall present to those of another race who are not of this age.Here we are! For there will be no honor in any man who is not immortal, but only (in) those who were chosen from an immortal substance, which has shown that it is able to contain him who gives his abundance. Therefore I said, 'Every one who has, it will be given to him, and he will have plenty.' But he who does not have, that is, the man of this place, who is completely dead, who is removed from the planting of the creation of what is begotten, whom, if one of the immortal essence appears, they think that they possess him - it will be taken from him and be added to the one who is. You, therefore, be courageous and do not fear at all. For I shall be with you in order that none of your enemies may prevail unto you. Peace be to you, Be strong!"
When he (Jesus) had said these things, he (Peter) came to himself.
And he said to me, "Peter, I have told you many times that they are blind ones who have no guide. If you want to know their blindness, put your hands upon (your) eyes - your robe - and say what you see."
But when I had done it, I did not see anything. I said "No one sees (this way)."
Again he told me, "Do it again."
And there came in me fear with joy, for I saw a new light greater than the light of day. Then it came down upon the Savior. And I told him about those things which I saw.
And he said to me again, "Lift up your hands and listen to what the priests and the people are saying."
And I listened to the priests as they sat with the scribes. The multitudes were shouting with their voice.
When he heard these things from me he said to me, "Prick up your ears and listen to the things they are saying."
And I listened again, "As you sit, they are praising you".
And when I said these things, the Savior said, "I have told you that these (people) are blind and deaf. Now then, listen to the things which they are telling you in a mystery, and guard them, Do not tell them to the sons of this age. For they shall blaspheme you in these ages since they are ignorant of you, but they will praise you in knowledge."
"For many will accept our teaching in the beginning. And they will turn from them again by the will of the Father of their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e., the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And the guileless, good, pure one they push to the worker of death, and to the kingdom of those who praise Christ in a restoration. And they praise the men of the propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law." Warning that some will idolize His death and ignore his commandment to clean the inside of the cup
"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching. And they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: (those) who stand in (the) strength of the archons, of a man and a naked woman who is manifold and subject to much suffering. And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption."
"For evil cannot produce good fruit. For the place from which each of them is produces that which is like itself; for not every soul is of the truth, nor of immortality. For every soul of these ages has death assigned to it in our view, because it is always a slave, since it is created for its desires and their eternal destruction, in which they are and from which they are. They love the creatures of the matter which came forth with them."
"But the immortal souls are not like these, O Peter. But indeed, as long as the hour is not yet come, it (the immortal soul) shall resemble a mortal one. But it shall not reveal its nature, that it alone is the immortal one, and thinks about immortality, having faith, and desiring to renounce these things."
"For people do not gather figs from thorns or from thorn trees, if they are wise, nor grapes from thistles. For, on the one hand, that which is always becoming is in that from which it is, being from what is not good, which becomes destruction for it and death. But that which comes to be in the Eternal One is in the One of the life and the immortality of the life which they resemble."
"Therefore all that which exists not will dissolve into what exists not. For deaf and blind ones join only with their own kind."
"But others shall change from evil words and misleading mysteries. Some who do not understand mystery speak of things which they do not understand, but they will boast that the mystery of the truth is theirs alone. And in haughtiness they shall grasp at pride, to envy the immortal soul which has become a pledge. For every authority, rule, and power of the aeons wishes to be with these in the creation of the world, in order that those who are not, having been forgotten by those that are, may praise them, though they have not been saved, nor have they been brought to the Way by them, always wishing that they may become imperishable ones. For if the immortal soul receives power in an intellectual spirit -. But immediately they join with one of those who misled them." Its a matter of the heart- to become "nice" is better than a bitter intelectualism
"But many others, who oppose the truth and are the messengers of error, will set up their error and their law against these pure thoughts of mine, as looking out from one (perspective) thinking that good and evil are from one (source). The True God is Good, and all that are his reflect this Goodness They do business in my word. And they will propagate harsh fate. The race of immortal souls will go in it in vain, until my Parousia. For they shall come out of them - and my forgiveness of their transgressions, into which they fell through their adversaries, whose ransom I got from the slavery in which they were, to give them freedom that they may create an imitation remnant in the name of a dead man, who is Hermas, Beware of "prophets" who listen to angels! of the first-born of unrighteousness, in order that the light which exists may not believed by the little ones. But those of this sort are the workers who will be cast into the outer darkness, away from the sons of light. For neither will they enter, nor do they permit those who are going up to their approval for their release."
"And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishment of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, (and) whom they took prisoner." committing an evil in the name of God is still an evil
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals." Christ and politics don't mix!
But I said " I am afraid because of what you have told me, that indeed little (ones) are, in our view, the counterfeit ones, indeed, that there are multitudes that will mislead other multitudes of living ones, and destroy them among themselves. And when they speak your name they will be believed."
The Savior said, "For a time determined for them in proportion to their error they will rule over the little ones. And after the completion of the error, the never-aging one of the immortal understanding shall become young, and they (the little ones) shall rule over those who are their rulers. The root of their error he shall pluck out, and he shall put it to shame so that it shall be manifest in all the impudence which it has assumed to itself. And such ones shall become unchangeable, O Peter." the time is coming when the Truth is poured out on the world
"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will put them to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them." Gnosis comes only to an open mind and heart
When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me." Fear not those that have only power to harm the flesh
But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place."
But he said to me, "I have told you, 'Leave the blind alone!'. And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame." I am not my body
And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was <filled> with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed.
And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking at those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma, which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit." Salvation is of the heart, understanding is of the intellect
"These things, then, which you saw you shall present to those of another race who are not of this age.Here we are! For there will be no honor in any man who is not immortal, but only (in) those who were chosen from an immortal substance, which has shown that it is able to contain him who gives his abundance. Therefore I said, 'Every one who has, it will be given to him, and he will have plenty.' But he who does not have, that is, the man of this place, who is completely dead, who is removed from the planting of the creation of what is begotten, whom, if one of the immortal essence appears, they think that they possess him - it will be taken from him and be added to the one who is. You, therefore, be courageous and do not fear at all. For I shall be with you in order that none of your enemies may prevail unto you. Peace be to you, Be strong!"
When he (Jesus) had said these things, he (Peter) came to himself.
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joey_downunder
big sister
I have had a quick look at the sources you are using Soulgazer. Now look at the years that the Gnostic gospels were written compared to the books listed in the New Testament. Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
As you should be able to see the vast majority of the gnostic gospels were written in the second and third centuries, the New Testament books were written in the 1st century by people who had actually walked with Jesus personally and saw Him in the flesh after His resurrection (see John 21).
How do you reach the conclusion that the gnostics who never knew or had even seen Jesus once and the apostles - including the apostle Paul who had also experienced Jesus (see Acts 9) - somehow "knew" the truth and the apostles got it wrong?
As you should be able to see the vast majority of the gnostic gospels were written in the second and third centuries, the New Testament books were written in the 1st century by people who had actually walked with Jesus personally and saw Him in the flesh after His resurrection (see John 21).
How do you reach the conclusion that the gnostics who never knew or had even seen Jesus once and the apostles - including the apostle Paul who had also experienced Jesus (see Acts 9) - somehow "knew" the truth and the apostles got it wrong?
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@ Joey
There are no Gospels that were composed by people that saw Jesus in the flesh. Who told you that? Books like this one represent early Christian understanding and teaching. No one is(I hope) so simple as to believe them more than that. Anyway, the late date is the date they were finished, not the date of initial composition, Books can be dated to their translation from Greek to Coptic, but without the Greek, they are dated conservatively--- However, I personally doubt any of them predate the gentile movement. 100-300 would be a good range, and about as close as anyone is going to pin them down without the Greek. Thomas does a bit better, being started around 50 AD. Nevertheless, even at a late composition date, this particular document had some pretty amazing and accurate prophesies. But again, the Torah itself was only composed a few centuries before Christ, what about that?
@Tim
"Gnostic" is a misnomer that stuck because of 19th century occultist legend surrounding the few extant test. The latest and greatest scholarship says these documents and scriptures represented mainstream christianity before the development of catholicism. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi has been slowly changing scholastic perception and critical study. It's more likely that "gnosticism" was slowly absorbed into the developing catholicism. However, Gnostics did persevere in small groups, and came to fear the church as they had their property confiscated, their churches burned and sometimes themselves along with their scriptures. The last of the great persecutions was against the Cathar gnostics in France in the 1200's. ...Please read this: http://gnosis.org/ecclesia/homily_Montsegur.htm
There are no Gospels that were composed by people that saw Jesus in the flesh. Who told you that? Books like this one represent early Christian understanding and teaching. No one is(I hope) so simple as to believe them more than that. Anyway, the late date is the date they were finished, not the date of initial composition, Books can be dated to their translation from Greek to Coptic, but without the Greek, they are dated conservatively--- However, I personally doubt any of them predate the gentile movement. 100-300 would be a good range, and about as close as anyone is going to pin them down without the Greek. Thomas does a bit better, being started around 50 AD. Nevertheless, even at a late composition date, this particular document had some pretty amazing and accurate prophesies. But again, the Torah itself was only composed a few centuries before Christ, what about that?
@Tim
"Gnostic" is a misnomer that stuck because of 19th century occultist legend surrounding the few extant test. The latest and greatest scholarship says these documents and scriptures represented mainstream christianity before the development of catholicism. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi has been slowly changing scholastic perception and critical study. It's more likely that "gnosticism" was slowly absorbed into the developing catholicism. However, Gnostics did persevere in small groups, and came to fear the church as they had their property confiscated, their churches burned and sometimes themselves along with their scriptures. The last of the great persecutions was against the Cathar gnostics in France in the 1200's. ...Please read this: http://gnosis.org/ecclesia/homily_Montsegur.htm
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No, not really. They eschewed the use of scripture and proclaimed that every member was a prophet. They only reason they didn't drink the Kool-Aid is that they didn't think of it. I know that's not a very scholarly position to take, but yes, they did act like wacko's. I have no trouble using Tertullian and Squeeky Fromme in the same sentence.
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"I have remembered your tears and your grief and your sorrow. They are far from us. Now, then, you who are outside the inheritance of the Father, weep where it behooves you and grieve and proclaim that which is good, since the Son is ascending appropriately. In truth I say to you, had it been to those who would listen to me that I was sent, and had it been with them that I was to speak, I would have never descended upon the earth. And now, then, be ashamed on account of them.~Secret James
Some background on Secret James
Alternate titles: Secret Book of James, Secret Letter of James, Epistula Iacobi Apocrypha
c. 100-150 C.E.
The Apocryphon (Secret Book) of James is probably the earliest example of a long-standing Gnostic tradition that the risen Jesus delivered secret teachings to his disciples. The gospel is framed within the format of a letter from James, the brother of Jesus, to a recipient whose name cannot be determined due to the fragmentary condition of the first page of the papyrus codex (known as the Jung Codex from the Nag Hammadi library). The MS is a Coptic translation of a Greek original, though the author claims to have written in Hebrew.
Jesus speaks of the importance of being "full" of the Spirit, for with it comes the knowledge (gnosis) of God's kingdom necessary to achieve salvation. After the revelation to James and Peter, James sends the apostles off to their missionary destinations, then travels to Jerusalem. Peter is given secondary importance in the dialogue, possibly representative of the developing conflict with the proto catholic Church.
Secret James shows a familiarity with the known parables of Jesus, including a list of seven that exist in Matthew and/or Luke. Thus, the body of Secret James likely dates back to the beginning of the second century when, like the Gospel of John, the early Sayings traditions were developed into discourses and dialogues.
Some background on Secret James
Alternate titles: Secret Book of James, Secret Letter of James, Epistula Iacobi Apocrypha
c. 100-150 C.E.
The Apocryphon (Secret Book) of James is probably the earliest example of a long-standing Gnostic tradition that the risen Jesus delivered secret teachings to his disciples. The gospel is framed within the format of a letter from James, the brother of Jesus, to a recipient whose name cannot be determined due to the fragmentary condition of the first page of the papyrus codex (known as the Jung Codex from the Nag Hammadi library). The MS is a Coptic translation of a Greek original, though the author claims to have written in Hebrew.
Jesus speaks of the importance of being "full" of the Spirit, for with it comes the knowledge (gnosis) of God's kingdom necessary to achieve salvation. After the revelation to James and Peter, James sends the apostles off to their missionary destinations, then travels to Jerusalem. Peter is given secondary importance in the dialogue, possibly representative of the developing conflict with the proto catholic Church.
Secret James shows a familiarity with the known parables of Jesus, including a list of seven that exist in Matthew and/or Luke. Thus, the body of Secret James likely dates back to the beginning of the second century when, like the Gospel of John, the early Sayings traditions were developed into discourses and dialogues.
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When you come into their power, one of them who is their guard will say to you, 'Who are you or where are you from?' You are to say to him, 'I am a son, and I am from the Father.' He will say to you, 'What sort of son are you, and to what father do you belong?' You are to say to him, 'I am from the Pre-existent Father, and a son in the Pre-existent One.'
First Apocalypse of James
First Apocalypse of James
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Ishraqiyun
Fanning the Divine Spark
I really like the Thomasine gnostic literature. The Gospel of Thomas is top rate and there is such power in the Hymn of the Pearl. I have trouble understanding many of the other gnostic scriptures though. I guess I don't have the hermenutic key for understanding them. I know folks have been working on rediscovering it and have made some great discoveries . I think there is a good chance the actual meaning of some of those texts would be very different from the meaning we get out of it now a days. Pistis Sophia for example is based on complex number codes/ gematria but people try understanding it based on outer meaning expressed by the words. That's why I like theJacob Boehme and the Christian Theosophists. Gnostic/s close to us in time, an abundance of literature, a continuously living tradition, and we have enough information to make sense out of their writings. I think the people who dedicate themselves to finding the lost keys of the older gnostic texts are doing the world a great favor though.
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None of them are that hard, really, even the Pistis. Just bear in mind that anything that does not match the nature of Jesus, they considered Yaldobaoth. After that, everything slides right into place. Just view them with that inner "ear". The Creation stories map out the inner journey; "You can't see God without Jesus."
Adam is your inner man, "the Garden" is your false complacency, Yaldobaoth your mistaken beliefs, Sophia fallen and Sophia Risen, the demonstration of the need for a lifeline, and Christ the doorway to understanding. As above, so below.
Adam is your inner man, "the Garden" is your false complacency, Yaldobaoth your mistaken beliefs, Sophia fallen and Sophia Risen, the demonstration of the need for a lifeline, and Christ the doorway to understanding. As above, so below.
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From what has been said, it is evident that these persons entirely miss the truth; each of the two groups has experienced this, the first because they do not know the God of justice, the second because they do not know the Father of all, who alone was revealed by him who alone came. It remainds for us who have been counted worthy of the knowledge of both these to provide you with an accurate explanation of the nature of the Law and the legislator by whom it was ordained. We shall draw the proofs of what we say from the words of the Savior, which alone can lead us without error to the comprehension of reality.
First, you must learn that the entire Law contained in the Pentateuch of Moses was not ordained by one legislator - I mean, not by God alone, some commandments are Moses', and some were given by other men. The words of the Savior teach us this triple division. The first part must be attributed to God alone, and his legislation; the second to Moses - not in the sense that God legislates through him, but in the sense that Moses gave some legislation under the influence of his own ideas; and the third to the elders of the people, who seem to have ordained some commandments of their own at the beginning. You will now learn how the truth of this theory is proved by the words of the Savior.
In some discussion with those who dispute with the Savior about divorce, which was permitted in the Law, he said Because of your hard-heartedness Moses permitted a man to divorce his wife; from the beginning it was not so; for God made this marriage, and what the Lord joined together, man must not seperate. [Matt 19:8] In this way he shows there is a Law of God, which prohibits the divorce of a wife from a husband, and another law, that of Moses, which permits the breaking of this yoke because of hard-heartedness. In fact, Moses lays down legislation contrary to that of God; for joining is contrary to not joining.
But if we examine the intention of Moses in giving this legislation, it will be seen that he did not give it arbitrarily or of his own accord, but by the necessity because of the weakness of those for whom the legislation was given. Since they were unable to keep the intention of God, according to which it was not lawful for them to reject their wives, with whom some of them disliked to live, and therefore were in the danger of turning to greater injustice and thence to destruction, Moses wanted to remove the cause of dislike, which was placing them in jeopardy of destruction. Therefore because of the critical circumstances, choosing a lesser evil in place of a greater, he ordained, on his own accord, a second law, that of divorce, so that if they could not observe the first, they might keep this and not turn to unjust and evil actions, through which complete destruction would be the result for them. This was his intention when he gave legislation contrary to that of God. Therefore it is indisputeable that here the law of Moses is different from the Law of God, even if we have demonstrated the fact from only one example.
The Savior also makes plain the fact that there are some traditions of the elders interwoven in the Law. For God,he says, Said, Honour your father and your mother, that it may be well with you, But you , he says addressing the elders, ...have declared as a gift to God, that by which you have nullified the Law of God through the tradition of your elders. Isaiah also proclaimed this, saying, This people honours me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, teaching precepts which are the commandments of men. [Matt 15:4-9].
Therefore it is obvious that the whole Law is divided into three parts; we find in it the legislation of Moses, of the elders, and of God himself. This division of the entire Law, as made by us, has brought to light what is true in it.
Ptolomy
First, you must learn that the entire Law contained in the Pentateuch of Moses was not ordained by one legislator - I mean, not by God alone, some commandments are Moses', and some were given by other men. The words of the Savior teach us this triple division. The first part must be attributed to God alone, and his legislation; the second to Moses - not in the sense that God legislates through him, but in the sense that Moses gave some legislation under the influence of his own ideas; and the third to the elders of the people, who seem to have ordained some commandments of their own at the beginning. You will now learn how the truth of this theory is proved by the words of the Savior.
In some discussion with those who dispute with the Savior about divorce, which was permitted in the Law, he said Because of your hard-heartedness Moses permitted a man to divorce his wife; from the beginning it was not so; for God made this marriage, and what the Lord joined together, man must not seperate. [Matt 19:8] In this way he shows there is a Law of God, which prohibits the divorce of a wife from a husband, and another law, that of Moses, which permits the breaking of this yoke because of hard-heartedness. In fact, Moses lays down legislation contrary to that of God; for joining is contrary to not joining.
But if we examine the intention of Moses in giving this legislation, it will be seen that he did not give it arbitrarily or of his own accord, but by the necessity because of the weakness of those for whom the legislation was given. Since they were unable to keep the intention of God, according to which it was not lawful for them to reject their wives, with whom some of them disliked to live, and therefore were in the danger of turning to greater injustice and thence to destruction, Moses wanted to remove the cause of dislike, which was placing them in jeopardy of destruction. Therefore because of the critical circumstances, choosing a lesser evil in place of a greater, he ordained, on his own accord, a second law, that of divorce, so that if they could not observe the first, they might keep this and not turn to unjust and evil actions, through which complete destruction would be the result for them. This was his intention when he gave legislation contrary to that of God. Therefore it is indisputeable that here the law of Moses is different from the Law of God, even if we have demonstrated the fact from only one example.
The Savior also makes plain the fact that there are some traditions of the elders interwoven in the Law. For God,he says, Said, Honour your father and your mother, that it may be well with you, But you , he says addressing the elders, ...have declared as a gift to God, that by which you have nullified the Law of God through the tradition of your elders. Isaiah also proclaimed this, saying, This people honours me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, teaching precepts which are the commandments of men. [Matt 15:4-9].
Therefore it is obvious that the whole Law is divided into three parts; we find in it the legislation of Moses, of the elders, and of God himself. This division of the entire Law, as made by us, has brought to light what is true in it.
Ptolomy
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Ishraqiyun
Fanning the Divine Spark
That's one area I can't agree with some of the early Gnostics on. Understood literally much of the OT would be really hard to mesh with the God described by Jesus. I can empathize Marcions position for example. I think he adopted that position because he lacked the proper hermenutic key to understanding the Old Testament though.
"You should know that the first book of Moses consists entirely of spiritual allegories. He who wants to know what such stories mean must figure in himself the old and the new man, and compare Christ and Adam (in him) with each other. He will then understand all that; but without this he will see merely a story for children: it being, however, so full of secrets, that no man could describe them all, from his childhood up to old age, even if he had come into the world with a full Comprehension of them.
Jacob Boehme.
Franz Hartmann in his book Jacob Boehme , Personal Christianity a Scienceexplains it this way:
Each individual man is a little world in itself, containing the types of everything that exists in the Macrocosm. A man may be regarded as being a whole kingdom full of many peoples and personalities.. Within himself is Moses and the Israelites, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, the patriarchs and the kingdom of heaven and hell. Thus the events described in the Bible, and looked upon by the pious as being things of a past history, are actually descriptions of eternal processes taking place in the constitution of man
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Actually, the first part of genesis is full of sexy puns and jokes. Only somebody who wasn't Hebrew would ever take it literally. I think that the early Christians such as Marcion can be forgiven for not wanting to use it----there were a tremendous amount of people who did(and do) take it literally. Marcion used literalism to prove it's own fallacy.
When Ptolomy wrote the above, people were again starting to Idolize the old testament-(if it's written in the X, it must be true). By using the words of Jesus, Ptolomy was able to defuse this superstition without causing offense.
The classic Gnostics as represented by the Nag Hammadi were Christian. They were not out to replace Christianity, but were in fact the mainstream, right, wrong, or otherwise. The Gnosticism that developed in the nineteenth century was a different animal---it sought to provide an alternative to Christianity with a combination of the occult and the current theosophic schools of thought. This is why the actual Gnostic writings appear to be so different from those Gnostic schools that claim succession.
When Ptolomy wrote the above, people were again starting to Idolize the old testament-(if it's written in the X, it must be true). By using the words of Jesus, Ptolomy was able to defuse this superstition without causing offense.
The classic Gnostics as represented by the Nag Hammadi were Christian. They were not out to replace Christianity, but were in fact the mainstream, right, wrong, or otherwise. The Gnosticism that developed in the nineteenth century was a different animal---it sought to provide an alternative to Christianity with a combination of the occult and the current theosophic schools of thought. This is why the actual Gnostic writings appear to be so different from those Gnostic schools that claim succession.
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joey_downunder
big sister
Hi Soulgazer - the Gospels were written by the apostles or by people who were taught directly by one of the apostles and so they would have learnt all the facts and doctrines from people who had actually known Jesus in the flesh personally. Therefore all the books - Gospels AND letters to the early churches -in the New Testament of the Bible would have had to be completed by (at the very latest) the beginning of the second century. If you follow the links on the www.earlychristianwritings.com and www.ntgateway.com websites you will see all the scholarly evidence for that.
Anyway, I am quite interested in hearing about how you became a gnostic christian. Were you brought up in a mainstream church and then converted to Gnostic christianity or were you brought up in a Gnostic church?
Anyway, I am quite interested in hearing about how you became a gnostic christian. Were you brought up in a mainstream church and then converted to Gnostic christianity or were you brought up in a Gnostic church?
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I was brought up in a traditional church, but adopted Atheism; After an intense spiritual experience, and studying Mediterranean theology tutored by two doctorates, to try and resolve my experience, I became a Christian Gnostic. Their experiences as they recorded them, most closely resembled my own.
The original "gnostic" churches nearly all had Apostolic succession from Paul. I.E. Paul->Theodas->Valentinius->Ptolomy. Paul->Marcion's father->Marcion. Some books in the New testament(i.e. the pastorals, etc) were not completed till possibly as late as 150CE. The New testament itself is build around the New Testament of Marcion(c. 140ce). Nearly everything added after that was to promulgate catholicism as THE major tenant of Christianity. This does not negate the value of the individual scriptures, but they were not gathered from one central source. I.E. The Gospel of John was in first usage by the Nasene gnostics, Revelation from the Jewish Apocalyptics, and Matthew from the Antioch Messianic Jews, etc. None of them followed what you would be familiar with. The term "catholicism" means "universal" where all of the teachings were reduced to the lowest common denominator and homogenized, resulting in an amalgamation that is at once familiar to the other sects, and brand new. This process was not really completed until the sixteenth century to yield protestant catholicism.
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joey_downunder
big sister
OK I see from the entry on Wikipedia that followers of Valentinus claimed he was taught by Theodas etc. Is there any evidence from outside sources that this is true? Also if there is any written evidence from non-Gnostic outsiders that Paul taught material only to a special inner circle that contradicted what was said in his letters to the churches (i.e. from standard Bible used by mainstream churches)?
That is interesting that you had a spiritual experience that made you decide that Gnosticism was true. What was so special about it? Was it feelings alone like described by some christian mystics?
That is interesting that you had a spiritual experience that made you decide that Gnosticism was true. What was so special about it? Was it feelings alone like described by some christian mystics?
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My experience falls outside of the realm of normal human expression. Paul's "if in the body or out", best covers it.
As to Paul;
Historically? This is not all that unusual, as the Jewish region that Paul grew up in(Tarsus), also used a demiurgic figure. Judaism was not a solid "this is Judaism" religion.... it had a wide variety of beliefs and practices, as did Christianity. "So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God." (1 Corinthians 4:1)
Study Paul's letter's carefully, and you will see that the ones that he wrote to his gentile students were warning them about adopting the Torah(Law), or receiving the messianic Jewish teachers from Jerusalem, some of whom brought letters of recommendation. All was not hugs and puppies between the various sects.
Why, specifically, do you ask? I might be able to give you a better response.
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