Gnostic Gospels

[A. believer]

There are Christians and there are Gnostics, one cannot be both.

Ummm, I think she's referring to Gnosticism as a Christian-based heresy as opposed to pagan Gnosticism not based on anything Christian. I'm pretty sure we all agree here that one cannot be a "Christian Gnostic."

 

[hiumble1]

Is it not corrinthians (or galatians, can't remember) where it says do not set before your eyes anything wicked or evil?....
Just knowing enough from my 'presaved days' they are new agy in thought... you become enlightened and ascend to a higher plain, etc....

 

[A. believer]

Is it not corrinthians (or galatians, can't remember) where it says do not set before your eyes anything wicked or evil?....
Just knowing enough from my 'presaved days' they are new agy in thought... you become enlightened and ascend to a higher plain, etc....

Yes, the New Age movement borrows from ancient Gnosticism. Hence, the current interest in the Gnostic "gospels."

 

[ScottBot]

Ummm, I think she's referring to Gnosticism as a Christian-based heresy as opposed to pagan Gnosticism not based on anything Christian. I'm pretty sure we all agree here that one cannot be a "Christian Gnostic."

 

[A. believer]

"One cannot be a Christian and be Gnostic."

Are you serious??? What a prideful, shallow, and fear-encompassed comment. Who are you to say this? And its my guess that you, like many here, have not read the gnostic texts with an open mind. If you go into anything thinking that it is going to be filled with darkness, evil, deceit, and malice, surely, that is all you will see.

First of all, Christ's words have always been crypic-- whether they are included in the canon or elsewhere. We have 2000 years of dogma, of human designation and interpretation, to apply to the words of Christ that are in the New Testament. It is because of these 2000 years **ONLY** that we all have any sembalence of a religion. But the truth of the matter is that Christ spoke in parables, riddles, and descriptives that in many times are ambiguous at best. Try and remove your blinders when reading his words in the NT and you, too, will find that His concepts (that we all find so simplistic now thanks to those 2000 years) are very deep, crypic statements. Only a Master, one with total knowledge of the Creator, the Great Spirit, could possibly say the things in the Book. And likewise, how can we, mere simpletons, even hope to understand the smallest iota of Christ's teachings. It is impossible. All we can hope for are simplifications... which is what the church as done in the past 2000 years to His words.

Secondly, how can you, or anyone in this thread, remove the politics out of the formation of the Canon? And, really, why does it matter? Do you really think that those people who were on the canon had any real direct link to God? Do you think they had X-ray vision wherein they could determine what was "God-Breathed" and what wasn't? Give me a break. Back in the fifth century, there was MUCH more competition going on for incluence than there is now in 2006. Today, the Catholics and Protestants are still fighting over insignificant details (use this forum for proof). Do you think there was any difference then??? When the stakes where higher? When there was major disagreements to the interpretations of Christ's cryptic words that he had spoken 400 years prior? Politics, whether in nations or within institutions has existed since the beginning of time. Surely, it plays a huge role whever the majority wants to do away with the minority... which is exactly what happened when the established Christian church wanted to get rid of any differing opinion. And lets face it, 2000 has not really changed anything, as currently we Christians still want to remove anything that WE (not necessarily God) disagree with.

And lastly, I just might add that the Gnostic Gospels might just be the most valuable, richest treasure trove that Western Civilization (at least) has. Why? For simply this reason: Because humanity has not assigned their interpretation to Christs words-- yet. If you pick up any of the Gnostic Gospels, you will find Christ's words unadulterated, unfiltered, pristine, and without humanity's influence. Right now whenever you open your Bible, you have everyone else's opinion screaming in your ear whenever you read any passage. How can you separate what is real with what is blatant interpretation? You can't.

But the beauty with the Gnostic Gospels is that they have only been discovered for ~50 yrs (the Nag Hammadi at least). No dogma has yet to be assigned to them. If you have enough patience, you can read the words the others have recorded of Christ, and make up your mind, FOR YOURSELF, of what Christ was saying. And maybe, just maybe, they will agree, concur, harmonize, jive with not only your existing beliefs, but with the beliefs off All- Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Toaist, etc. After all, how could Christ's message not be applicable to all?

All this, and still, you confess Nicaean Trinintarian orthodoxy? Hmmm.

 

[Dragons87]

as currently we Christians still want to remove anything that WE (not necessarily God) disagree with.

My...what truth. There are so many chunks I want to take out from the Bible! All that stuff about genocides, slavery, you-can't-love-both-the-world-and-God-at-the-same-time doctrine...

And then we'll play right into the hands of the atheists and the gnostics, and most importantly, the Devil. The reason why the Bible is so detestable to so many people is exactly because bits of it is detestable. We dare not change the Word of God without His guidance, so let it be detestable! If God's Word was easy to swallow, I'd be quite worried at the quality of God!!

After all, how could Christ's message not be applicable to all?

It is already applicable to all without the gnostic texts. You can find Christians in all countries, all cultures.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Gnosticism stands or falls and the gospel of Thomas.

It falls and this is why: John was the longest lived Apostle out of the twelve. Thomas died before John! John penned Revelations in A.D.95 shortly before his own death. The earliest posible date for the gospel of Thomas is A.D.110--and this is really stretching it. So, how can Thomas have written the account when he is already dead? How can we trust this account as a testimony when the witness is dead?

..Its a forgery.

 

[CoolWater]

All this, and still, you confess Nicaean Trinintarian orthodoxy? Hmmm.

What is this condescending gibberish supposed to mean? Why don't you say what you want to say without the theological jargon?

 

[CoolWater]

My...what truth. There are so many chunks I want to take out from the Bible! All that stuff about genocides, slavery, you-can't-love-both-the-world-and-God-at-the-same-time doctrine...

And then we'll play right into the hands of the atheists and the gnostics, and most importantly, the Devil. The reason why the Bible is so detestable to so many people is exactly because bits of it is detestable. We dare not change the Word of God without His guidance, so let it be detestable! If God's Word was easy to swallow, I'd be quite worried at the quality of God!!




It is already applicable to all without the gnostic texts. You can find Christians in all countries, all cultures.

OK, first of all, I wasn't referring to removing parts of the Bible. I was making reference as to how us Christians like to try and convert ANYONE, regardess of how pious, devout, or Godly they might be under their own religion.

Its funny, I was thinking about this reply and I came to this: Ultimately, differing religions are akin to different languages. Do you think God differentiates between prayers spoken in English to prayers spoken in Russian, Punjabi, or Manderin? Of course not, something simple like that is no problem for Something as might as our God. Conversely, do you think God really differentiates between different earthly cultures? Because, really when you boil everything down, different religions are soley based on two things: God and the indiginous culture. Meaning, the genesis of all religions is first, God. Second, the culture. So in the same respect as language, do you really think that God cares AT ALL about the cultural part? Throw out your dogma and think about that.

 

[tsukino_Rei]

OK, first of all, I wasn't referring to removing parts of the Bible. I was making reference as to how us Christians like to try and convert ANYONE, regardess of how pious, devout, or Godly they might be under their own religion.

Its funny, I was thinking about this reply and I came to this: Ultimately, differing religions are akin to different languages. Do you think God differentiates between prayers spoken in English to prayers spoken in Russian, Punjabi, or Manderin? Of course not, something simple like that is no problem for Something as might as our God. Conversely, do you think God really differentiates between different earthly cultures? Because, really when you boil everything down, different religions are soley based on two things: God and the indiginous culture. Meaning, the genesis of all religions is first, God. Second, the culture. So in the same respect as language, do you really think that God cares AT ALL about the cultural part? Throw out your dogma and think about that.

Amen! It's all just spiritual sementics!

I have found it to be clear from observation that every religion contains devout and passionate seekers of God. Their soul's desire is to be in right relationship. This is the mystical aspect behind and at the foundation of every religion.

Every religion also contains people who cling to dogma, to laws chiselled in stone; and they work at hardening their hearts to any other views out of a crippling fear of being led astray. I think that this is idolatry. I think that it is a very sad thing when these images of God which we build up become graven and we worship them at the expense of submitting to fluid revelation that comes from genuine LIVING relationship.

 

[Nickolai]

What is this condescending gibberish supposed to mean? Why don't you say what you want to say without the theological jargon?

Because if you don't believe in the Nicene creed then you arn't allowed to post in this section.

 

[ScottBot]

What is this condescending gibberish supposed to mean? Why don't you say what you want to say without the theological jargon?

It means that if you don't accept 100% of the precepts presended in in Nicene Creed, you are not a Christian by definition as determined by the rules of this Forum. In case you didn't know, the Council of Nicea established that creed specifically to refute the Gnostic borne heresy of Arius. I repeat, you cannot be both Christian and Gnostic. You are either saved by grace through faith in Christ, or you are saved by secret knowledge. Jesus commanded his Apostles NOT to keep knowledge of Him a secret. He said, "Go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, ..."

 

[tsukino_Rei]

It means that if you don't accept 100% of the precepts presended in in Nicene Creed, you are not a Christian by definition as determined by the rules of this Forum. In case you didn't know, the Council of Nicea established that creed specifically to refute the Gnostic borne heresy of Arius. I repeat, you cannot be both Christian and Gnostic. You are either saved by grace through faith in Christ, or you are saved by secret knowledge. Jesus commanded his Apostles NOT to keep knowledge of Him a secret. He said, "Go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, ..."

ah, but just because the Council beleived that one could not both beleive in the Creed and beleive in Gnosis, does not mean that modern or then Gnostics agree.

 

[ScottBot]

ah, but just because the Council beleived that one could not both beleive in the Creed and beleive in Gnosis, does not mean that modern or then Gnostics agree.

Understood, but by definition, if one believes in salvation through secret knowledge they are not Christian. Christ did not come to give us secret knowledge, He came to die on our behalf and repair the bridge to God.

 

[tsukino_Rei]

Understood, but by definition, if one believes in salvation through secret knowledge they are not Christian. Christ did not come to give us secret knowledge, He came to die on our behalf and repair the bridge to God.

Gnosis - intuitive knowledge of spiritual truths;
-of relating to or posessing intellectual or spiritual knowledge.
-Intuitive apprehension of spiritual truths, an esoteric form of knowledge sought by the Gnostics.

www.wordreference.com
www.thefreedictionary.com

Esoteric

 

[tsukino_Rei]

ACK! It's crazy busy suddenly. I will have to finish my thoughts later. sorry.

 

[tsukino_Rei]

Gnosis - intuitive knowledge of spiritual truths;
-of relating to or posessing intellectual or spiritual knowledge.
-Intuitive apprehension of spiritual truths, an esoteric form of knowledge sought by the Gnostics.

www.wordreference.com
www.thefreedictionary.com

Esoteric

Sorry about that. Where was I... oh ya. There was no single school of thought among Gnostics. Salvation through secret knowledge was not a beleif that was common throughout Gnosticism. Deepening Relationship through Spiritual Revelation was the commonality. Not unlike Wesleyan Holiness Doctrine, Sanctification Doctrine, and sects of modern Christianity who like to reference Paul in Hebrews. (you know the spot - bread and milk, then Melchizadek).

It's also a common Christian teaching that it is the Holy Spirit who saves, through personal Revelation. Christians can say the words all they like, but ultimately it's God that does the work in the individual and brings them to a point where their spiritual eyes and ears may be openned and they are spiritually capable of a growing relationship in Christ. They were dead and now they live, were deaf but now hear, were blind but now see. It is a spiritual quickening. How is this not Gnosis?

 

[CoolWater]

It means that if you don't accept 100% of the precepts presended in in Nicene Creed, you are not a Christian by definition as determined by the rules of this Forum. In case you didn't know, the Council of Nicea established that creed specifically to refute the Gnostic borne heresy of Arius. I repeat, you cannot be both Christian and Gnostic. You are either saved by grace through faith in Christ, or you are saved by secret knowledge. Jesus commanded his Apostles NOT to keep knowledge of Him a secret. He said, "Go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, ..."

Oh, and by the way, you really don't think "secret knowledge" exists??? You think that EVERYTHING there is to know is printed among the pages in the Bible? Even it Hebrews (among other places), it alludes to the fact that there is something more thank what we think we know:

13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Again, when talking about things like "salvation" and "secret knowledge" you must remove your dogma, your preconceptions. Why can't these things co-exist? Because you read about it somewhere? Because that's what tradition has always said? Because that's what your pastor or your theology professor told you? Remove your self from these things that shackle your mind. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF THE MEANING OF CHRIST!!!

I was thinking about this, this morning: Sure, if we want to blindly accept all Christian teachings, if we want to mindlessly listen to the pastor every Sunday, if we do the things that we are supposed to do within our Christian religion, we will find God. That the beauty of it.

However, God gave us a mind for a reason. He has given us the ability to seek out inconsitancies, to search out "hidden knowledge" (because lets face it, its there... it MUST be there. To suggest otherwise would be to trivialize God-- certainly he does not tell us anything, therefore there is some knowledge that is hidden). God wants us to rationalize those things that religioin doesn't clarify. Jacob wrestled the angel, and the angel was overcome. Do you think that this really refers to an actual wrestling match?

Seek and you will find-- this has become a cliche. However, if you are tired of the Sunday School stories that you have been told since you are little... if these things have been told and retold so many times that they have lost their meaning, SEEK FOR MORE AND GOD WILL REVEAL TO YOU SECRETS!!!! It can't be anymore simple.

 

[ScottBot]

Oh, and by the way, you really don't think "secret knowledge" exists??? You think that EVERYTHING there is to know is printed among the pages in the Bible? Even it Hebrew, it alludes to the fact that there is something more thank what we think we know:

13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Again, when talking about things like "salvation" and "secret knowledge" you must remove your dogma, your preconceptions. Why can't these things co-exist? Because you read about it somewhere? Because that's what tradition has always said? Because that's what your pastor or your theology professor told you? Remove your self from these things that shackle your mind. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF THE MEANING OF CHRIST!!!

I was thinking about this, this morning: Sure, if we want to blindly accept all Christian teachings, if we want to mindlessly listen to the pastor every Sunday, if we do the things that we are supposed to do within our Christian religion, we will find God. That the beauty of it.

However, God gave us a mind for a reason. He has given us the ability to seek out inconsitancies, to search out "hidden knowledge" (because lets face it, its there... it MUST be there. To suggest otherwise would be to trivialize God-- certainly he does not tell us anything, therefore there is some knowledge that is hidden). God wants us to rationalize those things that religioin doesn't clarify. Jacob wrestled the angel, and the angel was overcome. Do you think that this really refers to an actual wrestling match?

Seek and you will find-- this has become a cliche. However, if you are tired of the Sunday School stories that you have been told since you are little... if these things have been told and retold so many times that they have lost their meaning, SEEK FOR MORE AND GOD WILL REVEAL TO YOU SECRETS!!!! It can't be anymore simple.

Because I am an orthodox Christian as defined in the Nicene Creed, not a Deist, Free-Thinker, or Open Theist who choose to recreate God in their own image.

 

[CoolWater]

Because I am an orthodox Christian as defined in the Nicene Creed, not a Deist, Free-Thinker, or Open Theist who choose to recreate God in their own image.

Thats the shame in it... you have done exactly what you say you have not done. By blindly accepting what is given to you without putting thought into it, you have recreated God in the image of others.

I, on the other hand, have allowed God to reveal Himself to me. There is a big diffference. I have not "recreated God in my own image." That's what you have done by blindly accepting. I don't try and force God into a box-- which is done throughout ALL religion, including Christianity. Instead, I allow God to show Himself to me, and I then draw whatever conclusions I can about Him. Believe me, I know that I know nothing about God-- He's too majestic for that. But theen again, that's what separates us. You do (think you know Him).