Glory,glory,glory

[enoch son]

I'm a tongue talking, prophesing mad man (who has a sound mind) of God. I have been raised in this chruch. But let me make one thing clear, the foundation laid by our fathers is good, but not all of it is right. I pray that the mod. let us go in the forum and move in the gifts that come after the infilling. Believe it or not I bite my tongue in the other forums when words of wisdom and knowledge come by the Spirit and are so powerful that I have to seat here and say Lord I can't write that! Man that hurts. Let the Holy Spirit GO! And let revelation of Jesus rain down upon all who enter. And bring us to the fullness of Christ. And to the mature man in Jesus our Lord. Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kspchemist]

the foundation laid by our fathers is good, but not all of it is right

What part of it is not right? Is there any part that is not Scriptural? Please elaborate.

 

[rapturefish]

I have read in one book that some of the beginnings of Pentecostals came about through the entrenchment of certain beliefs that were not intended to have been so fixed in the first place, but due to the persecution and conflict from mainline churches that came about as a reaction to the first Pentecostals some ideas got entrenched as dogma.

One of these is that of tongues being the initial evidence of being baptised with the Holy Spirit. Not that the idea is unequivocably wrong, in fact it does have strong support on the weight of evidence from books like Acts. However, the bible does stop just short of cementing it in concrete. More of a concern however is how such a concept is applied by some Pentecostals who will insist (inadvertently or not) on certain christians that somehow they are inadequate as christians because they do not speak in tongues. I think it's not whether that is correct or not that is the issue, but that the attitude needs to change. People are not likely to accept things if the other party comes from a mindset that sets themselves above them. A lot more people would be open to things if Pentecostals were gracious and patient in sharing their wonderful experiences with them.

Unfortunately, due to those beginnings the Pentecostals were cut off from the mainline denominations and a wall came up between them. It is possible that some roots of bitterness remained in the Pentecostal church and filtered down to their mindset and perception of mainline churches as their cold war enemies. Likewise the mainline churches. Thankfully things aren't as bad as that today, but still the old mindsets persist and I think a lot can be sorted out if we reflect on our mindsets and see where they come from. I can tell you that some of it definitely comes from our churches who tint our theological views and some of those views have been passed down through history.

cheers,

 

[rapturefish]

I'm a tongue talking, prophesing mad man (who has a sound mind) of God. I have been raised in this chruch. But let me make one thing clear, the foundation laid by our fathers is good, but not all of it is right. I pray that the mod. let us go in the forum and move in the gifts that come after the infilling. Believe it or not I bite my tongue in the other forums when words of wisdom and knowledge come by the Spirit and are so powerful that I have to seat here and say Lord I can't write that! Man that hurts. Let the Holy Spirit GO! And let revelation of Jesus rain down upon all who enter. And bring us to the fullness of Christ. And to the mature man in Jesus our Lord. Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!

G'day mate,

Hopefully you'll find things a bit freer here. I'm curious about the other gifts you touched on. I came back from overseas still new in things of the Holy Spirit and had hoped to join a church that was operating in the spiritual gifts. My current church does believe in them and call themselves Pentecostal, but I've yet to see the gifts operating amongst the congregation apart from tongues as private language, it's only the pastor that may give words from time to time as the Spirit leads.

How did receiving of prophetic gifting come about for you? Are there any gifts you feel God is saying you won't be receiving?

cheers,

 

[enoch son]

G'day mate,

Hopefully you'll find things a bit freer here. I'm curious about the other gifts you touched on. I came back from overseas still new in things of the Holy Spirit and had hoped to join a church that was operating in the spiritual gifts. My current church does believe in them and call themselves Pentecostal, but I've yet to see the gifts operating amongst the congregation apart from tongues as private language, it's only the pastor that may give words from time to time as the Spirit leads.

How did receiving of prophetic gifting come about for you? Are there any gifts you feel God is saying you won't be receiving?

cheers,

Frist as I read the word in the books of Acts when the Holy Spirit fall an infilled the believer three things happean bottom line 1. Tongues 2. Or they prophesy 3. Both. As for my experience I spoke in tongues at the infilling and then prophesy. (and later enter into the office of a prophet by the mouth of my pastors and teachers) I believe that anyone who has the infilling can do both (tongues and prophesy). To say one has the infilling and does not do either is not biblical. How can I say this! There is 500,000,000 of us. And God does not repect persons. As for gifting once one is infilled with the Holy Spirit one can move in all of the gifts, as the Spirit wills. God gives a measure of faith to all and a grace of faith to the believer. You can move into a higher state of faith as one becomes God conscience or aware of the move of the Holy Spirit. It like this YOU are perfect in Christ (James 1-17). But one must learn that the thing that said you are not perfect was hung on a cross (Gal. 2-20). Instead of teaching a simple truth of the good news the chruch preach sin instead. Why! Is not the things of Christ a new creation is not the old creation gone? Then why preach the condemnation of the old? It's the love that draws men to Christ not SIN. When one leaves the condemnation doctrine of others and themself God moves fast into ones spiritual growth. just a few thoughts.

 

[enoch son]

What part of it is not right? Is there any part that is not Scriptural? Please elaborate.

Lets take King James only. As long as Jesus is preached it doesn't matter.

 

[HumbleMan]

Lets take King James only. As long as Jesus is preached it doesn't matter.

I don't know what you're getting at here. Back when the Pentecostal movement started, the KJV was about the only bible you had. The ASV had just come out, but I don't think it had gained a wide acceptance. And the Pentecostals sure weren't gonna use the good ol' Catholic bible. Preaching out of the KJV was a necessity then, not now. If any one says it is, then they are preaching a man made doctrine.

If that's not what you were talking about, sorry I ranted a little bit.

 

[enoch son]

Humble; I run into KJ only all the time. Brother who won't talk to you because your reading some other translation. It goes to the important point of LEGALISM! Which is a Pent. chruch problem.

 

[immersedingrace]

To say one has the infilling and does not do either is not biblical. How can I say this! There is 500,000,000 of us. And God does not repect persons.

How is it not biblical? 500,000,000 of us don't all speak in tongues, don't all preach, and don't all teach. God gives each of us gifts. Yes, I do know the difference between the GIFT of tongues, and a personal "prayer language" as has been taught by my church (I'm still doing my own research into the difference as the bible tells it because I don't just take someone else's word for things as I once did), but I KNOW I had the Holy Spirit at 10 years of age, when I was saved, but there was absolutely NO evidence of it until I was 20 years old. The reason...I was SCARED and didn't WANT to speak in tongues! I didn't want to "act" the part of a charismatic/pentecostal believer. I felt the leading of the Holy Spirit on many occasions before actually evidencing tongues. One mus want and/or ask for the gifts and the evidences. Just as God gives us free-will to accept Him or not, He gives us free-will to recieve His gifts.

 

[A4C]

enoch son
Can I say something in true love brother
You spell church ch-U-R-ch (chruch seems like you might mean "chrutch " ie support for lameness- which you might perhaps )
I know it doesn't seem polite to pick you up for typos but I see this spelling error all the time (and it irratates me )

In love bro
Ossie

 

[rapturefish]

he he... I have a tendency to type "chuch" due to the speed at which I type, so enoch son's one up on that point

 

[rapturefish]

Frist as I read the word in the books of Acts when the Holy Spirit fall an infilled the believer three things happean bottom line 1. Tongues 2. Or they prophesy 3. Both. As for my experience I spoke in tongues at the infilling and then prophesy. (and later enter into the office of a prophet by the mouth of my pastors and teachers) I believe that anyone who has the infilling can do both (tongues and prophesy). To say one has the infilling and does not do either is not biblical. How can I say this! There is 500,000,000 of us. And God does not repect persons. As for gifting once one is infilled with the Holy Spirit one can move in all of the gifts, as the Spirit wills. God gives a measure of faith to all and a grace of faith to the believer. You can move into a higher state of faith as one becomes God conscience or aware of the move of the Holy Spirit. It like this YOU are perfect in Christ (James 1-17). But one must learn that the thing that said you are not perfect was hung on a cross (Gal. 2-20). Instead of teaching a simple truth of the good news the chruch preach sin instead. Why! Is not the things of Christ a new creation is not the old creation gone? Then why preach the condemnation of the old? It's the love that draws men to Christ not SIN. When one leaves the condemnation doctrine of others and themself God moves fast into ones spiritual growth. just a few thoughts.

Some interesting points there, thanks for that. I go to a Pentecostal church now but I've had a journey from Baptist to Presbyterian, etc. to charismatic before that. I really don't consider the labels anywhere nearly as seriously as I once did but since I'm in a Pentecostal church now I guess I'd better work out what that means.

Some of the points mentioned seem typical of Pentecostal beliefs - that the infilling or baptism of the Holy Spirit is either accompanied by tongues or prophecy or both, and not neither; that a person can receive or move in all of the nine supernatural gifts.

At the moment I tend to think that there is strong support for the idea that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always accompanied by tongues or some other supernatural gift, but I fall just short of making it an emphatic statement. This is simply because it's never stated plainly that way, although in Acts it is either recorded or implied as happening.

I remember a prophet from India visiting my previous church and he stated that we could receive all the nine supernatural gifts. My main thought when he said this was, "But what about 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 and 27ff and what Paul said about each being spiritually gifted as the Spirit wills? Whilst I didn't agree with what he said, I do believe we should be convinced that we could receive any of the gifts and possibliy more that one. But if it doesn't happen I should not regret that expectation for one second.

I also think that since the Holy Spirit wills, it will happen in His timing and in the way He chooses. Our willingness to receive in faith definitely helps but the Spirit is the one who wills and decides it.

Some don't trust statistics, but there is definitely something to be said about the sheer explosion of people under the Pentecostal arm of christianity in just over 100 years. I think of Mormons and some people reckon they're growing a lot but in just under twice the time Mormonism's been around they don't rate a pip against the numbers of Pentecostals.

That being said, it's true what's been said, that not all of them speak in tongues or prophesy. It's important we don't make anyone feel bad for not having received when they've asked for it. In the end the Spirit will give them what they ask for, just encourage them to keep worshipping God and obeying his commands, and rest knowing that the prayer has been heard.

cheers,

 

[enoch son]

Rapturefish: I have not one time said they do not have the Holy Spirit in any of my post. I have said they do not have the infilling. There is a different. At salvation you get the Holy Spirit as a 1/3 part of the Godhead. At the infilling as in Acts 2-4 you get it as the Holy Spirit. And I will not back off that belief. Give and inch and the next thing you know new ager will say they got it.
If there is not a second event with the Holy Spirit then Jesus spoke disbelief! If He spoke disbief then our belief is in vain. John 20-22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, " Receive the Holy Spirit". Then in Acts He tell them to go and wait for it to come (Acts1-8) which I believe was 40 days later. So either He did not believe they got it the frist time or there is a second event. The second event works when one follows the infilling through Acts. As for spelling my mind moves faster then my hands and eyes. I pray God will bless me with a computer that writes spells and does grammer. Untill then I pray that I do not over work your fruits.

 

[enoch son]

How is it not biblical? 500,000,000 of us don't all speak in tongues, don't all preach, and don't all teach. God gives each of us gifts. Yes, I do know the difference between the GIFT of tongues, and a personal "prayer language" as has been taught by my church (I'm still doing my own research into the difference as the bible tells it because I don't just take someone else's word for things as I once did), but I KNOW I had the Holy Spirit at 10 years of age, when I was saved, but there was absolutely NO evidence of it until I was 20 years old. The reason...I was SCARED and didn't WANT to speak in tongues! I didn't want to "act" the part of a charismatic/pentecostal believer. I felt the leading of the Holy Spirit on many occasions before actually evidencing tongues. One mus want and/or ask for the gifts and the evidences. Just as God gives us free-will to accept Him or not, He gives us free-will to recieve His gifts.

I do not want to upset you but fine free will in the New Test.. Just one ver. please that say's you have free will. We are under a KINGSHIP not a DEMOCRACY you do not have a vote. All things given to you are by the Grace of God. Your answer to Him is to be "YEA AND AMEN." In His kingship the king will let you bring petitons and pray's before Him. But there is only ONE adocate, ONE mediator, ONE intercessor between God and man and that is our Lord Jesus Christ. We do not have a vote. IT IS HIS WILL! And His will alone.

 

[immersedingrace]

I do not want to upset you but fine free will in the New Test.. Just one ver. please that say's you have free will.

I can't say that the words "free will" are in the bible, just like the word "trinity" isn't. However, there's evidence of it throughout. But the one verse that comes to mind is John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Don't know about you, but that's enough to tell me I actually have a choice to believe or not to believe, to accept or not to accept.

All things given to you are by the Grace of God.

Without a doubt.

In His kingship the king will let you bring petitons and pray's before Him. But there is only ONE adocate, ONE mediator, ONE intercessor between God and man and that is our Lord Jesus Christ.

Absolutely no argument there.

 

[Laurie]

about that KJV thing>>>>> the reason that some people may like that better is bc its "closest to the origonal" "not watered down" <<<i can read KJV and interpret NIV compleatly different meaning wise

i mean i know what youre talking about though I often times wish i culd read NIV without my papaw jumping on me all the time about how its 'watered down' and all. but i know that he only has good intentions for me.....as far as what i think....*sighs*I dont know anymore whats right or wrong religously speaking, i just pray that God will guide e in all these descisions i must make concerning ths and religion.

God bless,

Laurie

 

[FireRock]

Wow, I was just in a discussion about this some time ago. It was such a revelation to me! See, we do have free will to choose whether or not we're going to believe in and accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. But once we do choose to accept His gift of salvation, we've died to ourselves. Our lives our not our own anymore; it all belongs to Christ. We either live in obedience to Him or disobedience to Him.
I don't know, I guess it's kind of hard to explain while trying to type it out instead of in typical conversation. But I do think that we technically waive our right to free will when we accept Christ. I mean, we still have it and we can (and do!) still exercise it, because we're human here. But the whole deal is that our lives do not belong to us; they belong to Christ. The Bible does say that that it's Christ who lives in me and not myself, which tells me that this is not my life to live. It is a life to be lived at a higher standard and with a greater purpose than I could ever have for it. There are certain things that need to be done with this life in order that people will come to know Christ and that God will be glorified.

I have no clue if that made sense, but I can understand what I mean in my own head!

 

[enoch son]

Wow, I was just in a discussion about this some time ago. It was such a revelation to me! See, we do have free will to choose whether or not we're going to believe in and accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. But once we do choose to accept His gift of salvation, we've died to ourselves. Our lives our not our own anymore; it all belongs to Christ. We either live in obedience to Him or disobedience to Him.
I don't know, I guess it's kind of hard to explain while trying to type it out instead of in typical conversation. But I do think that we technically waive our right to free will when we accept Christ. I mean, we still have it and we can (and do!) still exercise it, because we're human here. But the whole deal is that our lives do not belong to us; they belong to Christ. The Bible does say that that it's Christ who lives in me and not myself, which tells me that this is not my life to live. It is a life to be lived at a higher standard and with a greater purpose than I could ever have for it. There are certain things that need to be done with this life in order that people will come to know Christ and that God will be glorified.

I have no clue if that made sense, but I can understand what I mean in my own head!

It was OK. I understand you. But if the word say's "It is not I but Christ that lives in me." Sound like someone else has taken over doesn't it? The things that you and I do in the flesh are cover by Jesus blood and are no longer seen by God. He only see His son. And remeber Jesus died before the foundation of the world.

 

[FireRock]

But that's God's whole intention, isn't it? That's what I have always understood from my studying of the Bible. God wants to take over our lives and be in control. It's true that we mess up and that we sin because we are imperfect and such. But it seems as though the idealistic thought here is that Christ would come in and take over our lives, so that we may be completely submitted to Him and that He can use us and work through us. I realize that probably can't happen due to our sin nature and everything, but isn't that what we should strive for? Once again, this is what I've understood from studying the Bible and the way that I try and live my life, but then again I seem to be somewhat of an optimistic idealist.

 

[enoch son]

But that's God's whole intention, isn't it? That's what I have always understood from my studying of the Bible. God wants to take over our lives and be in control. It's true that we mess up and that we sin because we are imperfect and such. But it seems as though the idealistic thought here is that Christ would come in and take over our lives, so that we may be completely submitted to Him and that He can use us and work through us. I realize that probably can't happen due to our sin nature and everything, but isn't that what we should strive for? Once again, this is what I've understood from studying the Bible and the way that I try and live my life, but then again I seem to be somewhat of an optimistic idealist.

No He want you to pick up your cross and put it in the ground and hang on it spiritual. Not my will but your will be done. Gal 2-20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."