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DrBubbaLove

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The word translated as "earth" is "eretz", meaning "land." It is used for example as "eretz Israel", the land of Israel. So it doesn't mean the whole world. That's just not supported by the verse.
That does not help with the obvious selective rage after an expression of justified and righteous Wrath aimed at the whole race. In fact it seems a view that makes those expressions not better than petty reactions attributed to the pagan gods for natural events/calamities. Am not sure what the lesson would be from such a "un-literal" understanding of the verse. God is Powerful, makes idle threats and is petty????
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Agreed. To suggest that activity was to save him from a regional calamity when simply telling him to move (Abraham, Lot and Moses come to mind) baffles me as well. He could have moved to safe ground built a new house and returned several times in case the kids left something in the time it had to take them just to gather the material for that boat. Could even spent time doing rallies to try to get his neighbors to move.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Rather it's like saying "all things are possible with God, but that doesn't mean we should believe God has done everything possible for Him."
Suggesting He did something the Bible says He did is not the same as simply acknowledging His Power to do it. We both seem to agree He could. Neither is it a suggestion He could make a rock so big He could not lift it, hopefully neither of us have a problem there either. The only issue I have is the suggestion we can exclude a supernatural event from having occurred simply because there is no observable evidence supporting what a naturally occurring global flood would have to produce which we would obviously easily see some trace of. Am not willing to take that leap and our God does not appear to me to be the sort that demands our love by force of demonstration of His Power and Wrath against those who refuse to freely choose to love Him.

I do not see that as a problem with my believing He did what He clearly said He would do in dramatically and radically changing the earth, the numbers of animals and practically wiping out the entire human race. Take away all the details of the actual event. Forget it is even done in some manner that whatever else we might imagine could also have been happened, it included lots of water. Forget all that. The lead up and the aftermath statements alone speak of a global intention and then describe a global effect.

Even granting a need for a boat to avoid a regional disaster, the scale of that project is beyond any reasoned response to a pending regional disaster. God is not fickle. He did not ask Lot to build a giant asbestos sphere to save his family and as many local animals as he could gather. He told Lot to move it and quickly.
 
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Speedwell

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How bout he "story" of Christ, a complete rundown on his life, what he was there for, then the actual carrying out of his purpose? I don't understand how that can be taken as literal and not the flood.
That the stories occur in different books written many centuries apart in different languages by different authors to satisfy entirely different literary agendas means nothing to you?

In any case, by your reasoning Mark Twain's autobiography must be fiction because he also wrote Tom Sawyer and thus there can be no truth of any kind in either work. Makes sense, right?
 
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The Barbarian

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God is just, but merciful.

God is Powerful, makes idle threats and is petty????

That would be the literalist interpretation, wouldn't it?
 
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rjs330

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Yes there must be because the Bible says it happened. There is no scriptural evidence that it is only a story and not true history.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Directly on topic.

I am being told that all of the geologic evidence should be ignored because there was a magical flood. I am calling hogwash.



I am saying that a myth is not a historical account of a real occurrence.
But you didn't address whether there's any truth to them, which is the question.
We have a clear evolutionary trend starting 3 million years ago. The evidence is pretty clear.
How much further have they dug?
 
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RickG

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If I was doing what you say, you'd be right. But mankind's actions are as natural as a cheetah's. And what I've been saying all along is that climate change is normal, natural. Not primarily man-caused.
The process of warming through greenhouse gas is natural. However, the increase of CO2 since the beginning of the industrial revolution is due to fossil fuel emissions, which is shown through isotope ratio analysis. Nature is not putting the additional CO2 into the atmosphere, man is.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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God is just, but merciful.



That would be the literalist interpretation, wouldn't it?
How so.
Something would be petty and an idle threat only if something is said that is only partially carried out and backed up.

Am going to erase mankind along with animals and destroy the earth in the process because of righteous anger at mankind's behavior, followed by just erase these select few over here, these specific animals in this small area and destroy this small part of the earth over here. That is at least a change of heart if not resembling an act of childish petulance typical of pagan gods in mythology.

I guess I could understand not wanting to paint God like pagans do, so let's alter the myth. But as long as one is changing it, why not change it so the set up, the event and the aftermath matches what is said to occur rather than exaggerate and make God appear fickle and petulant?
 
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Aldebaran

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The upper one third of the United States and all of Canada was once covered by glacier ice. It all disappeared 11,700 years ago, long before SUV's, factories, or humans exhaling carbon dioxide. Nobody is complaining about it though.
 
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Loudmouth

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So science cannot disprove supernatural event or say the evidence proves it did not happen.

Science could not disprove the claim that God planted fingerprints and DNA at a crime scene. Does that mean we have to ignore all fingerprint and DNA evidence?
 
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Loudmouth

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So whatever one imagines this event to be, it was globally catastrophic and I believe all the legends suggest very few humans at all survived it, certainly the Jewish version of it suggests as much.

And yet all those cultures soldiered on without a hiccup. There is no gap in Chinese history, as one example.

On top of that, there is no interruption in known geologic processes, such as annual lake varves and annual ice layers.
 
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Root of Jesse

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As soon as someone shows me what 97% of scientists agree with concerning global warming, you got it. All well and good. But who's to say that Everest was that tall at the time of a proposed flood, and who's to say that the depth of the deepest parts of the ocean were as deep as they are today. We know that land masses are constantly changing, and so is the sea floor.
 
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Loudmouth

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The upper one third of the United States and all of Canada was once covered by glacier ice. It all disappeared 11,700 years ago, long before SUV's, factories, or humans exhaling carbon dioxide. Nobody is complaining about it though.

Doesn't change the fact that increasing the CO2 concentration in our atmosphere will capture more heat and cause temperatures to rise.
 
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Aldebaran

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Doesn't change the fact that increasing the CO2 concentration in our atmosphere will capture more heat and cause temperatures to rise.

A dismissal of what I said without even addressing it. All you did is repeat something that isn't relevant to what I said.
 
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Loudmouth

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No one has said evidence gets excluded.

That is exactly what you have said. You have said that evidence for local flooding over millions of years has to be excluded because a supernatural flood could produce the same evidence, for no apparent reason.

You also claim that you can exclude any evidence you like if you decide that something supernatural is involved. By that very reasoning, I could exclude DNA and fingerprint evidence from a trial by merely claiming that God could have planted them at the crime scene. This is entirely in line with your argument.

Such a global flood could be imagined to lay down some evidence - which be easiest found today in sedimentary rock. Any such rock at all is in plus column - not proof - a plus as in maybe.

Those rocks date from different time periods, so they aren't evidence for a global flood.


Just like God could plant DNA and fingerprints at a crime scene.


That is no different than assuming a fingerprint was put in place by someone touching the surface where the fingerprint is found.

Omnipotence and omniscience rather suggest He could do such and more if desired, as well as His knowing if He didn't His Presence would eventually be declared (and so feared by many) forever more to all mankind.

Again, just as God could plant fingerprints and DNA at a crime scene.
 
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Loudmouth

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The supernaturalist position becomes untenable when they reject evidence for natural processes. As soon as you argue that supernatural forces will produce evidence that is indistinguishable from natural processes you have entered the arena of Solipsisms. You might as well argue that the the universe was created last Thursday, complete with false evidence and false memories.
 
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Loudmouth

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What you avoid are the facts found in the Creation itself. The facts don't support a recent global flood. This evidence is the same for atheist and theist alike.
 
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