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dcyates

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I am confused. What in the environmental movement threatens the Christian worldview? Not all environmentalists are Christians, of course, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong about environmental issues. I would appreciate some clarity on this.
I think what's being referred to is the fact that the environmental movement has been hi-jacked by the far left, many of whom are rather inimical to the Christian worldview.
 
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dcyates

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Gee, and yet it's in industrialised societies that people enjoy the greatest longevity--in fact, the greatest in history. I wonder...
Maybe things aren't as bad as all the scare-mongers and doom-sayers would have us believe.
 
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dcyates

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Exactly! That al-Gore is a 'Lysenkoist' (or a Lysenko-Michurinist) is as perfectly apt a label for him as any other. Except, perhaps, 'Arrogant-hypocritical-liar-with-a-messiah-complex', but that's just too doggone long.
 
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dcyates

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I'm sorry, but for goodness' sake, you're 23!

Should we seriously implement an global, supranational environmental policy based on weather patterns spanning about two decades?!?

As I've already noted previously, Earth's climate changes all the time. About 2000 years ago, it was evidently so warm in the northern hemisphere that old Roman records indicate some of the best wine throughout the Empire came from vineyards cultivated in Britain. How many worldclass wineries are situated in England today?
About 1000 years ago, it was so warm that Viking colonists in Greenland could grow crops that would sustain them year-round. Can't do that today. According to Norse records, it wasn't until ca 1250 that Greenland ceased being green due to the increasingly cold temperatures.
Several centuries ago, Russian farmers were growing wheat across large swaths of northern Siberia, until the growing cold forced them to move their farming operations further south. I guess they adapted.

Can any of these periods of warmth be blamed on anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions? Obviously not.
 
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Voegelin

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In my lifetime, frost used to appear around October time, this year, the first ground frost appeared THIS WEEK. Weather anomolies such as this are common place around the world, and it can only be down to global warming.

Variation in climate is not the question. Obviously they occur (banana fossils in Oregon and reptiles in antarctica make that clear).

The questions are: Is man responsible for any or all of it? Have the solutions proposed by Gore and others to reverse variations been scientifically proven to have a chance of working?

The answer to the last one is no. There is no scientific proof anything Gore proposes will do anything.
 
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Ino

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voegelin et al:
ok, so you don't believe in global warming. do you believe that man has any kind of negative influence on the environment?
if not, please provide proof.

again, i'm not trying to start a fight, i'm just asking for your view. based on facts, preferably.
 
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cavell

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In my lifetime, frost used to appear around October time, this year, the first ground frost appeared THIS WEEK. Weather anomolies such as this are common place around the world, and it can only be down to global warming.
I have Geraniums still flowering in my garden.. Most peculiar. Wish we could get some frost to kill them off, and all the garden pests also.
 
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Parmenio

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Who cares if the global warming issue has been hijacked, it happens, but the science supporting global warming is not, as has been said, "junk science". That there is serious debate amongst scientists cannot be disputed, but calling evidence for global warming "junk science" is just haughty name calling.

You don't need to name call to argue against a point, I accept the evidence for global warming as something that shows that humanity does have an effect upon our global climate. If you disagree, so be it, but calling things "junk science" is unacceptable, because it really isn't. It doesn't draw on astrology to come to its conclusions, and it is firmly based on accepted science.
 
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dcyates

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I do believe in global warming. The whole point of my previous post was that our planet has already experienced periods of greater warmth, even than what we're experiencing today! I don't believe in anthropogenic global warming. Experts on both sides of the debate agree that Earth has seen a general warming trend over the past century of about 0.6 degrees Celsius. Whether or not just over half-a-degree increase is in fact substantial, most of this warming happened in the first half of the century. Considering the post-WW II explosion of industrialization all over the world, if global warming is man-made, this is the exact opposite of what should have occurred.

Additionally, as I've already asked earlier on another related thread, who says that the climate as we've been experiencing it over the past 50-odd years is the ideal? Again, in my previous post, I note how, at one time or another, it used to be so much warmer in at least the northern hemisphere that large areas of Siberia and Greenland--and one would presume, Canada--were then available for growing crops that are not now. As well, those nothern regions where crops are grown will, in a warmer climate, experience longer growing seasons. Wouldn't this be regarded as a good development?

Finally, in answer to your question: Yes, I do believe humanity is capable of thoroughly despoiling the environment on a localized level. But no, not THE environment on a global scale (at least, not at present). We're simply too small to cause such extensive damage. Contrary to the song, it's a big world, after all. And the atmosphere that surrounds us is truly massive. For instance, all of human civilization accounts for about 3 billion tonnes (or gigatonnes, GT) of CO2 emissions each year. (And this the highest amount I've come across; I've seen as low as 2 GT, but for the sake of argument I'll go with the higher figure.) This may seem like a lot on a human scale, but there is anywhere from 750 GT to 830 GT of CO2 in the atmosphere at any one time; it fluctuates that much. The Earth's land and oceans emit about 210 GT of CO2 into our atmosphere each year. In comparison, and given the spread of 80 GT that exists in the atmosphere, humanity's 3 GT barely registers as a pittance.

Besides all this, CO2 isn't a pollutant to begin with! We breathe it out all the time and plantlife breathes it in. And of all the greenhouse gases (GHG) in the atmosphere, CO2 only accounts for about 2% of it. The real culprit in global warming is water vapour. Yup, good ol' H2O, which makes up a full 97% of all GHGs.

All of which begs the question: Who's going to tell the planet to simmer down on the hydrological cycle? Al Gore? Robert Kennedy, Jr? A Gulfstream liberal like Laurie David? (Who has publicly confronted people she finds driving SUVs--and has even issued them 'tickets' with 'fines'--meanwhile, she flies across the continent from LA to NY and back on a regular basis in a private Gulfstream jet. Those things burn more fuel on take-off than the average SUV will in an entire year!)
 
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Voegelin

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voegelin et al:
ok, so you don't believe in global warming.

And how did you get that? I never said there isn't global warming.

All my replies deal with the lack of proof of causation and the junk science (or really no science) Gore and others use to defend the solutions they offer . . .i.e. where is the science which proves Kyoto will have any beneficial effect at all?

There isn't any.
 
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dcyates

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For my part, I don't have a problem with much of the science, but--as the part of your post that I've highlighted above illustrates--the crux of the matter is how that science is interpreted. It is here where human error can creep in. Science is supposed to deal exclusively with empirical facts, and the facts are the facts no matter how they're interpreted. The fact is, the 'crisis' of global warming is based almost entirely on computer models. These are not science. With computer models, what goes in, comes out. That is to say, the results one gets are entirely dependent on the information put in. As Voegelin has already more than adequately pointed out, there are simply too many variables that computer programmers and their resultant models cannot account for, in order to conclude with any appreciable degree of certainty just what the future holds concerning the planet's climate. Heck, meteorology is definitely a science, and yet, half the time the weatherman can't accurately tell us what it's going to be like tomorrow, nevermind what's going to happen in the distant future.
 
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Voegelin

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Nice of you Ino...easy assumption to make (I do it too. I get yelled at regularly by my friends for skimming what they send me).

Article by Jeff Jacoby at Townhall today:

Now just because a prediction was wrong in the past, doesn't mean a prediction today will not turn out to be correct (It annoys me no end when people say H5N1 is not a threat because SARS and Swine Flu had low mortality rates).

But a string of grossly incorrect predictions going back a century (probably going back to the first person who could talk) concerning climate does indicate there are psychological reasons why these predictions receive the attention they do.
 
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geetrue

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"He Who Controls the Weather ... Controls What Men Think"

I'm not asking or condoning that you believe in the works of Edgar Cayce "The sleeping prophet", but I have often wondered that if he was right about one dream or vision ... perhaps he was right about other dreams and visions he had.

This is a reading he had in 1936 pointing to the magnectic fields of the earth changing to cause strange weather patterns to form.

It is a thought and a thought worth considering ... The devil must have been very mad at Mr. Cayce to have side tracked his son and grandson into the "New Age" greedy people they have become, but Mr. Cayce was a strong believer in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Read it for yourselves ... He said these strange weather events would start in 1997, due to worlds axis changing.

I laughed at first, but I'm not laughing anymore:

Here is the article in part:




Isaiah 26:3 "I will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Me: because he trust in Me"
 
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Carey

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100% coreect you are.

Actually scientist have found that if we rapidly decreased the amount of smog in the earths environement it would increase global warming because smog has a reflective effect on the suns rays.

SUV's actually are protecting the earth....LOL
 
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jad123

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I knew their was a reason I drove a Tahoe!!!
 
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Voegelin

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I knew their was a reason I drove a Tahoe!!!

But I bet you only got one.

If you were an environmentalist like Al Gore and John Kerry everyone in your family would have one. Plus spare ones to keep at your second, third and fourth homes (homes to which you fly on private jets).
 
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Dragoon

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To geetrue:

Well, actually no one knows for sure what will happen when the magnetic poles shift. However, the poles have already made some progress in their shift and so far minimal changes have occured. But again, no one knows. I, however, don't see anything horrible taking place, considering that it is natural for the poles to shift as they have done so many times in Earth's history.
 
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jad123

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But I bet you only got one.

If you were an environmentalist like Al Gore and John Kerry everyone in your family would have one. Plus spare ones to keep at your second, third and fourth homes (homes to which you fly on private jets).

You just ruined my thought that I was a true environmentalist. I am going out today to buy another SUV, a motocycle, a couple of boats and a plane. Will that make a green enough???
 
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