Global Warming?

Ino · Dec 18, 2006

right, so it's not that you're opposed to taxation, it's just that you don't want others to have to pay them?
yeah, that makes sense, but the reality is, without taxation, there wouldn't be a legal system (who would pay for a JUST judge?) or an army (who would ever donate to them?) or even police force. ambulances, 911, infrastucture etc, they wouldn't exist if it weren't for tax, as they're not things people feel they need.

but in all honesty, i do get your point. in a perfect, christian society, tax wouldn't be needed. we're far from that though, and as christians, we need to set a good example and "give to ceasar what is ceasar's". a lot of it goes to a good cause, anyways.

WesternCanuck · Dec 18, 2006

Ino your being silly........Africa woes are not due to their low tax rates.....methinks that tribalism and aids might be just a little bit more of pressing issues in the South...tragically so.....honestly, I wasn't aware of low tax rates in the African nations....I doubt their would be a whole lot to collect regardless of the tax rates.....considering all the wars and breakdown of society...

Jad....right on ....again Biblically speaking we are NEVER called to take from the unbeliever and forcibly give to others...as the Body of Christ, we are called to give freely of our own goods and time.....

Though I do not have a problem with paying my taxes...I am not saying that ....what I am saying is that we far far to dangerously highly taxed in the West and it kills incentive....indeed, if we could just get rid of the progressive tax which is so idiotic and backwards and replace it with one flat tax that is fair for everyone, that would be great....

I certainly have no problems paying for roads, military, police, health etc etc.........luckily for me, I am only middle class and barely at that so the taxman doesn't get a huge chunk of my money anyways here in Tax Happy Canada.....no point in working any harder cause that means I end up losing more.....

Ino · Dec 18, 2006

westerncanuck, I'd like to point out the last sentence in your reply.
it always shocks me when i hear christians say stuff like that.
you can only serve one God.
you are right about africa, that was a silly example. i'll use the muslim countries as an example from now on. (if this wasn't an american site, i'd use usa as an example...)
muslims donate everyday, or they're supposed to anyways. i believe most islamic countries pay none or very little income tax. at least saudi-arabia, kuwait and bahrain don't have income tax. the infrastucture and education suffer from this system, as do the poor.

come to think of it, muslim countries are a good (or bad) example of God's promise to Israel (whoever blesses Israel, gets blessed).

Voegelin · Dec 18, 2006

Maccie said:
No, Al Gore hasn't been "hired by the Government"! I've just checked. He is over here speaking at various places on global warming.

That's OK by us - speech is free in the UK.

My understanding was it is not and UK authorities have deemed certain speech to be "Hate Speech" which is punishable by fines and or imprisonment.

I've notice when certain people speak, Ward Churchill for instance, and in this case, Al Gore, the defense of what they say consists of "they have a right of free speech.

Never understood that as I've never heard anyone suggest Gore or Churchill do not.

Have noticed that when Ann Coulter, Antonin Scalia and other conservatives speak on contraversial issues, the same people who use the "free speech" defense for the likes of Ward Churchill do not use it for them. They are shouted down and, in the case of Ann and several others, physically assualted.

cavell · Dec 18, 2006

There are occasions when I almost, I said almost, envy you precious people in Canada and the U.S of A.

Just recently I received a letter from the Company who supplies electricity to my home, informing me that my direct-debit for this service will be increased from £32 per month to £49 per month. Whew.

I made contact, and hopefully things will not be so bad.

My point is that individual folks, families indeed, are being called upon to subsidise governments who squander these resources, without so much as a thought.

WesternCanuck · Dec 18, 2006

Ino your right...I shouldn't have said that.....more out of frustration I'm sure...It is just frustration under a progressive tax.....If I were to add more work to myself, I will just end in a higher tax bracket and then find myself in a worse financial situation then before.....but your right...we Christians should be working as hard as we can in whatever we do....

Yeah...I suppose the Muslim Arab States is a better example but the reason they are in such a mess even financially with all that oil money I don't think has much to do with their low taxes....I think it has to do with a very backwards culture.....You just cannot treat half you population (women) in such a degrading way and think you can get away with it.....and not to mention the treatment of non muslims....

I think if you look at the Eastern European nations like Latvia, which has a flat tax rate and they really are starting to grow nicely economically speaking...I mean it won't happen overnight but slowly ...........Gee.....how did we get on taxes when this thread was about Global warming????? Ha ha ha

Back to the original topic.....the funny thing is my neice who is a wonderfully strong young Christian Lady emailed me last night wanting me to back Kyoto and to sign a petition against our current Canadian Govt. for backing out against that treaty.......Well...let me tell you.....that in my most Loving Christian Spirit I sent a long winded rambling email back to my Dear Sister in Christ explaining my opposition to said treaty....ha ha ha ha .......I'm still waiting for her reply so I expect we will be having some interesting conversations in the upcoming days about the weather and the like!!

Cavell...my heart goes out to all you Western Europeans.....your taxation if I am not mistaken is far worse in what we experience here in North America....and its bad enough here!!!

Take care...

Maccie · Dec 19, 2006

Just recently I received a letter from the Company who supplies electricity to my home, informing me that my direct-debit for this service will be increased from £32 per month to £49 per month. Whew.

All the electricity and gas companies are trying this on!! They get our money long before they need it, so get interest on it. There's been a lot in the papers about it. Don't go along with it. If necessary, go back to paying quarterly by cheque.

Don't let the **** get you down or get your money!!

Speech is free, Voegelin, inciting to hatred is not. Anyone can say what they like, but inciting others to hatred, violence and what-have-you is not.

Of course, some evangelical Christians would tryto impose their standards on others, hence the outcry over various TV shows, plays etc.

You don't want to believe all you read in the newspapers!

Ino · Dec 19, 2006

your right, westerncanuck, we've gone a bit off the topic.
P.S. Kyoto agreement is a good step, unfortunately most countries aren't willing to take it. again, christians should be the good example and show we care about all of God's creation.

wildthing · Dec 19, 2006

Kyoto sucks! It doesn't address a larger problem of developing nations use of high pollution fuels for their econmic development. How many millions of dollars is China profiting from and how are they spend on putting on scrubers on their stacks. They won't let anyone inspect these plants. We have to go on their word that they are doing something. If your going on someone word that they aredoing something without seeing the proof of it it means their not doing a thing.

When was the last time you actually see Gore in an Electric car? What Type of Cars does Gore Drive what type of cars does he own. You can bet it's not an Electric car. Many times they tell you that you need to give up things but when they are told the same thing. We are told that they are to good to give up that item. What is good for you but should be good for them The Last time he was in town he had convey of 25 SUV's waiting a nd idling for 2 hours as he was giving a speach....

Ino · Dec 19, 2006

the most important thing is not to look at what others are doing, but to do the very best yourself.
you cannot judge others for hypocrisy without getting judged for the same sin.
and to keep this reply from venturing off the topic: our effect on the nature cannot and must not be ignored.

Ino · Dec 19, 2006

and no, i CANNOT spell!

wildthing · Dec 20, 2006

Our effort will be for not. We keep our own clean while your neighbors are not so in cline. your gains in keeping the envinorment clean are zero.

A side note Ino I'm dyslexic. Don't allow others to take your freedom away for expressing your ideas your beliefs...

Voegelin · Dec 20, 2006

Maccie said:
Speech is free, Voegelin, inciting to hatred is not. Anyone can say what they like, but inciting others to hatred, violence and what-have-you is not.

Name some names. Who is inciting violence and hate?

Please no "some" Christians. Tell us exactly who they are and how they represent anyone but themselves.

I wish the left would make its case rationally. Over and over when a liberal such as Gore is called on his lysenkoism, when the tenets of traditional faith are defended, when conservatives logically make a case about anything, the reaction from the left is to accuse them of "hate" and , now and then, of even inciting "violence".

It is Orwellian .

(remember how we were told "The Passion of the Christ" would result in hate, in pogroms and other violence against Jews. Didn't happen did it?)

Maccie · Dec 20, 2006

Name some names. Who is inciting violence and hate?

Can't remember his name - that Imam who preached all sorts of violence in Mosques and was, I think, imprisoned.

Similarly, the BNP (British National Party - a very far-right-wing organisation,) have on various occasions been accused of inciting race hate and violence against Asians. Probably at some time they have been fined, though 2 did get off after their trial.

wildthing · Dec 20, 2006

no names, no dates equals no evidence. research your subject before writting about it. if you want to be taken seriously you will do that.

Ino · Dec 20, 2006

wildthing and voegelin: in Europe the "imam of hatred" and BNP are well known to misuse the freedom of speech.

i'm not sure what this conversation is about, but just thought i'd let you know that by typing in google you will find out stuff about these people.

now, obviously, there are others who misuse this freedom of speech as well, not just these two cases. i also believe that it is written in the law in most countries that igniting hatred is illegal.

my opinion is a great way to portray freedom of speech: i'm not sure what the conversation is about, but i had an opinion, and was allowed to express it. without any hatred or excitement towards bad things. just my two cents worth.

wildthing · Dec 20, 2006

You can say what you wish. In a totally free society you can do this that is why we allow Naiz to march thay have the right to say what they wish. that is why we allow the Comminst to speak and publish what they wish. I can go any book store a nd pick the writtings of Marx and Hitler they are free to write which is a freedom to to speak. We can choose to assocate with who every we wish that is a freedom too. The abuse come when groups are regulated and their freedom is taken away.

Ino · Dec 21, 2006

abuse of freedom of speech steps in once you start igniting hatred. let's put it this way. in usa you are allowed to sell everything. apart from other people. you cannot sell other people. that doesn't limit the free trade, it just limits the abuse of it.

now, i completely understand that this example is far fetched[sic] but unfortunately it happens all around the world, especially with kids. so, just because you are limiting something that is completely and obviously wrong, doesn't actually mean limiting the freedom itself. it takes away the chance of abusing this freedom.

igniting hatred is just as wrong as selling other people. it is also very obvious when that line is being crossed. so i don't really understand the fuss that's being made over this matter. are you telling me you don't know when somebody is encouraging killing or hurting other people?
also, just because you are able to resist what they are saying, doesn't mean everybody is.

dcyates · Dec 21, 2006

Maccie said:
That's all right then. Everyone else can go around driving their great big gas guzzlers, while people in Bangladesh are driven from their fields by salty sea seeping in, as sea levels rose

Frankly, anything that AiG publishes I would ignore, or believe the exact opposite.

And from which source did you learn that the Bangladesh are ostensibly being driven from their fields by rising sea levels?

And besides that, if all these scientists are right, rising sea levels allegedly due to global warming aren't being caused by anything humanity's doing anyway. So it's probably just a function of the natural climatic cycle the planet goes through. People are just going to have to adapt.

Voegelin · Dec 21, 2006

Ino said:
wildthing and voegelin: in Europe the "imam of hatred" and BNP are well known to misuse the freedom of speech.

And they have nothing to do with the OP. The charge that "some" are haters and incite violence was tossed into this thread as a backhanded slap at everyone who disagrees with Gore and his global warming crusade. As I said, its time that stopped.

"Hate" is used by the left to demonize. The reason it is done is three fold: 1. It appeals to those with little or no education. 2. It intimidates those who wish to extend charity to others and are not all that interested in the subject under discussion. 3. The left cannot make a rational, non-emotional defense of, in this instance, the junk science Al Gore and his team are putting out.

What we are seeing with the left's use of "hate" is what Orwell described in 1984: a five minute hate against "haters". Very dangerous stuff.

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