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santalucia

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Yes, well we have had "global warming" for what, ever since the ice age? It's easy to dismiss all critics as "ignorant" and say that the "serious" scientific community is in agreement, but in fact that is NOT the case. It's just that the dissenters are relegated to outer space, and told that they don't matter, they're just "ignorant". Hmm, sounds familiar.

It's also not true that the argument hasn't changed.



"The Cooling World" - by Peter Gwynne

April 28, 1975 Newsweek


There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production – with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now.

The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.


The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has risen by a fraction of a degree – a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars' worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.

To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world's weather. Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic. “A major climatic change would force economic and social adjustments on a worldwide scale,” warns a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences, “because the global patterns of food production and population that have evolved are implicitly dependent on the climate of the present century.”

A survey completed last year by Dr. Murray Mitchell of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reveals a drop of half a degree in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968. According to George Kukla of Columbia University, satellite photos indicated a sudden, large increase in Northern Hemisphere snow cover in the winter of 1971-72. And a study released last month by two NOAA scientists notes that the amount of sunshine reaching the ground in the continental U.S. diminished by 1.3% between 1964 and 1972.





To the layman, the relatively small changes in temperature and sunshine can be highly misleading. Reid Bryson of the University of Wisconsin points out that the Earth’s average temperature during the great Ice Ages was only about seven degrees lower than during its warmest eras – and that the present decline has taken the planet about a sixth of the way toward the Ice Age average.

Others regard the cooling as a reversion to the “little ice age” conditions that brought bitter winters to much of Europe and northern America between 1600 and 1900 – years when the Thames used to freeze so solidly that Londoners roasted oxen on the ice and when iceboats sailed the Hudson River almost as far south as New York City.

Just what causes the onset of major and minor ice ages remains a mystery. “Our knowledge of the mechanisms of climatic change is at least as fragmentary as our data,” concedes the National Academy of Sciences report. “Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions.”

Meteorologists think that they can forecast the short-term results of the return to the norm of the last century. They begin by noting the slight drop in overall temperature that produces large numbers of pressure centers in the upper atmosphere. These break up the smooth flow of westerly winds over temperate areas. The stagnant air produced in this way causes an increase in extremes of local weather such as droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long freezes, delayed monsoons and even local temperature increases – all of which have a direct impact on food supplies. “The world’s food-producing system,” warns Dr. James D. McQuigg of NOAA’s Center for Climatic and Environmental Assessment, “is much more sensitive to the weather variable than it was even five years ago.” Furthermore, the growth of world population and creation of new national boundaries make it impossible for starving peoples to migrate from their devastated fields, as they did during past famines.

Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects. They concede that some of the more spectacular solutions proposed, such as melting the Arctic ice cap by covering it with black soot or diverting arctic rivers, might create problems far greater than those they solve. But the scientists see few signs that government leaders anywhere are even prepared to take the simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies. The longer the planners delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality."




Riiight.
 
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kermit

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santalucia said:
Yes, well we have had "global warming" for what, ever since the ice age? It's easy to dismiss all critics as "ignorant" and say that the "serious" scientific community is in agreement, but in fact that is NOT the case. It's just that the dissenters are relegated to outer space, and told that they don't matter, they're just "ignorant". Hmm, sounds familiar.

It's also not true that the argument hasn't changed.
There's been quite a bit of scientific discover in the past 29 years. The thing you miss is that the symtoms described in this very old article are the same systoms we see today; some areas getting hotter and some getting colder. The only difference is the net gain (or loss) up to 1975. The net gain or loss is not the issue and never has been, it just makes for snazzy media terms. The issue is the redistribution of tempurature on the earth.

The fact that you tried to make is seem like this article and the current research aren't describing the exact same thing shows that you don't understand the topic. That is what I mean by arguing from ignorance.

Those scientists are on the fringe not because they are dissentors, but because they are unable to publish work whose research methodology and resulting conclusions can pass peer reviews. Science has advanced because of dissenting views, but only the views of the dissentors who's research is conducted properly will ever pass muster.
 
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Vylo

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Global warming is happening, you can't stop it. If you turn off every emission of greenhouse gas, it won't stop it. Over 98 % of greenhouse gas is.......water vapor. The planet is going to heat up, get central air :).

I am more concerned about the damage these emission are doing to living beings directly then if they are "possibly" going to heat up the planet by an insigificant margin.

How much we contribute to global warming is debatable, the effects of toxic nature of emissions is not. Perhaps we should focus more attention on that aspect.
 
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trunks2k

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santalucia said:
Oh please!! This is such a bogus issue that it boggles the mind that people get in a tizzy about it. Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds that Europe will be ice and America will be desert in 40 years? Please show some credible source of that. And if the earth is warming so fast, why will Europe be ice? They better start worrying about their Muslim problem and negative birth rate, something actually real.


40 years may be a bit too soon, but it's true that the thought is that global warming will put much of Europe in an ice age type climate. The reasoning is pretty simple. The Gulf Stream acts as a major temperature regulator for much of Northern and Western Europe. It basically keeps much of Europe warm and is what keeps England from having an Alaska-like climate. The Gulf Stream is part of a larger set of currents that runs down the Atlantic and into the Indian ocean. It essentially acts like a conveyor belt. If you start to melt the ice-caps it will change the salinty in the water. I'm not sure of the reason, but salinty is an intrical part of the functioning of this conveyor belt. So essentially, the conveyor belt will stop, the gulf stream stops, and Europe loses the thing that keeps it warm. The weather on the US East coast will also be affected, but not as much as Europe.
 
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santalucia

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kermit said:
There's been quite a bit of scientific discover in the past 29 years. The thing you miss is that the symtoms described in this very old article are the same systoms we see today; some areas getting hotter and some getting colder. The only difference is the net gain (or loss) up to 1975. The net gain or loss is not the issue and never has been, it just makes for snazzy media terms. The issue is the redistribution of tempurature on the earth.

The fact that you tried to make is seem like this article and the current research aren't describing the exact same thing shows that you don't understand the topic. That is what I mean by arguing from ignorance.

Those scientists are on the fringe not because they are dissentors, but because they are unable to publish work whose research methodology and resulting conclusions can pass peer reviews. Science has advanced because of dissenting views, but only the views of the dissentors who's research is conducted properly will ever pass muster.

Oh come now. Surely you are not going to deny that scientists that don't toe the current political line are given any credence whatsoever? Just look at what has happened to well-credentialed scientists who have not lined up properly on the evolution side.

And I am not trying to argue as a scientist, as I am not one, but plenty of well educated, credentialed scientists HAVE spoken out against the hysteria on global warming. And they are anything but ignorant. That your side continues to ignore and deny this shows either "ignorance" or deceit.

BTW, perhaps y'all should change the name from "global warming" to "oncoming ice age" so it doesn't seem so ridiculous, and let Time magazine in on it, so they don't show an egg frying on top of the world. Just a suggestion for public relations ya know.
 
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Ryder

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Vylo

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Ryder almost all environmental concerns are exaggerated by environmentalists in order to prompt action due to our society being crisis-based, that is to say they tend to only tackle a problem once it has come to a head. Environmentalists try to head them off before they become imminent. Is this the right way to handle it? I'm not really sure it is. I think I would rather lay out the facts to people instead of hyping them up over exaggerations that can turn people away from my cause entirely.
 
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Ryder

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Vylo said:
Ryder almost all environmental concerns are exaggerated by environmentalists in order to prompt action due to our society being crisis-based, that is to say they tend to only tackle a problem once it has come to a head. Environmentalists try to head them off before they become imminent. Is this the right way to handle it? I'm not really sure it is. I think I would rather lay out the facts to people instead of hyping them up over exaggerations that can turn people away from my cause entirely.
Then you would be one of the more level-headed ones Vylo! :)

I'm still not convinced that even a long term problem exists however. And I'm certainly not convinced they have an adequate solution, even if there is a problem! I mean take CO2 emissions for starters. They pump that stuff into greenhouses to increase crop yield. If we decrease the current level of CO2 in the air, who's to say we won't cause another problem and screw up our agriculture.
 
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Vylo

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There would be long term consequences, and the fix is simply to reduce emissions, which we have been trying to do. The problem with many environmental issues is that they accumulate, so even after stopping or slowing the detrimental action, it takes time for the environment to bounce back. The key is to not let things get out of hand.

The problem is that many (usually conservatives) want to ignore the problem and that others (almost always very liberal) want to slam the brakes and derail society in order to fix the problem. If you just plan ahead, and gradually reduce what is feeding the problem, you can difuse it in time while keeping economics intact. As much as we all, myself included, love animals and trees, etc, we also have to take care of our own. What have we saved if we throw our whole society into upheaval over something blown out of proportion. I have actually talked to people who think The Day After Tommorrow could happen. I talk to others who don't care because the rapture is coming, or because the earth will "take care of itself". I am starting to wonder if all the smog is affecting their brains ;).
 
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kermit

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santalucia said:
Oh come now. Surely you are not going to deny that scientists that don't toe the current political line are given any credence whatsoever? Just look at what has happened to well-credentialed scientists who have not lined up properly on the evolution side.

And I am not trying to argue as a scientist, as I am not one, but plenty of well educated, credentialed scientists HAVE spoken out against the hysteria on global warming. And they are anything but ignorant. That your side continues to ignore and deny this shows either "ignorance" or deceit.

BTW, perhaps y'all should change the name from "global warming" to "oncoming ice age" so it doesn't seem so ridiculous, and let Time magazine in on it, so they don't show an egg frying on top of the world. Just a suggestion for public relations ya know.
It's not political. The problem with scientists who have spoken out against global warming (and evolution) is that they have no alternate theory that fits the data, nor do they offer any compelling reason why the current theory is invalid. Basically, they are contributing nothing.
 
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santalucia

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Cliche Guevara said:
There are icebergs floating off the southern coast of New Zealand right now, closer than ever before, and great huge chucks of ice breaking off Antarctica.


Your thoughts on this, santalucia?

"Previous reportings were in the 1890s, early 1920s, 1930s and in 1948.

In 1892 icebergs were reported as far north as Chatham Rise and in 1931 near Dunedin"

Hmmm, global warming? No wait, global cooling? No, no wait, both??
 
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Cliche Guevara

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Thomas Sieger Derr has been writing on environmental ethics for many years. He is Professor of Religion and Ethics at Smith College and the author of Environmental Ethics and Christian Humanism.



Why would I take the opinion of a Professor of Religion and Ethics over the opinions of actual scientists?


It's a bit like trusting the milkman to know all about Mad Cow Disease or something, isn't it?
 
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kermit

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santalucia said:
"Previous reportings were in the 1890s, early 1920s, 1930s and in 1948.

In 1892 icebergs were reported as far north as Chatham Rise and in 1931 near Dunedin"

Hmmm, global warming? No wait, global cooling? No, no wait, both??
Global Warming and Global Cooling represent the same phenomenon, but neither term accurately describes it. The problem isn't whether the earth is cooling or warming and it never has been (the difference between a hot earth and a cold earth is less than 10 degrees). The problem, and no-one disputes this, that some areas are getting warmer while others are getting cooler and some areas are getting wetter whiles others are getting dryer. In short, climates all over the earth are in flux. You can debate the causes all day long, but Man certainly plays some role.
 
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santalucia

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Cliche Guevara said:
Why would I take the opinion of a Professor of Religion and Ethics over the opinions of actual scientists?


It's a bit like trusting the milkman to know all about Mad Cow Disease or something, isn't it?


Gee, I don't know. Maybe because he actually bases what he says on scientists' claims? But I can totally understand the desire to dismiss any dissent as "ignorant". Doesn't make it any less valid though.
 
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santalucia

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kermit said:
Global Warming and Global Cooling represent the same phenomenon, but neither term accurately describes it. The problem isn't whether the earth is cooling or warming and it never has been (the difference between a hot earth and a cold earth is less than 10 degrees). The problem, and no-one disputes this, that some areas are getting warmer while others are getting cooler and some areas are getting wetter whiles others are getting dryer. In short, climates all over the earth are in flux. You can debate the causes all day long, but Man certainly plays some role.

Climate has never been stable. Ever. So getting into a panic about it seems a little wasteful of time, energy, money, and personnel, when there are so many other things that could be getting done. It's a pity that the issue has become so politicized and that people are making money by continuing down the path of embroiling people.
There is no real evidence that man plays a role, although that plays right into the hands of secular humanists and anti-religionists. That seems to be where you have ensconced yourself.

And there's not much more to be said on the topic I guess.
 
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kermit

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santalucia said:
Climate has never been stable. Ever. So getting into a panic about it seems a little wasteful of time, energy, money, and personnel, when there are so many other things that could be getting done. It's a pity that the issue has become so politicized and that people are making money by continuing down the path of embroiling people.
There is no real evidence that man plays a role, although that plays right into the hands of secular humanists and anti-religionists. That seems to be where you have ensconced yourself.

And there's not much more to be said on the topic I guess.
Yes, it is a shame that this issue has been politicized, but it seems that you are politicizing it as well. The problem is also the media's misrepresntation of Global Warming. They have so distorted the science that few recognize the actual science. A prime example was in the article that you cited. Thomas Sieger Derr did not argue against the actual science, but rather the media's misrepresentation of the science.

Yes, Man's role is questionable. But the changes in the earth's climates seemed to start about the same time as the industrial revolution. Coincidence? Perhaps. But the evidence does suggest that global temperatures are proportional with "greenhouse" gases. Man does produce quite a lot of these greenhouse gases, but much less than is produced naturally. The problem isn't the existance of greenhouse gases it's the levels of them. If their levels rise or fall too much the earth's climates will be affected. Truth be known, it is not clear whether changes in greenhouse gases are even cause or effect.

The fact that extremists use the research to garner media attention and support for their cause is no reflection upon the actual research. When you are prepared to look at the actual science rather that the media-perverted science your are referring to I'll be willing to discuss this topic further with you.
 
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