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Global warming and the end

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by eclipsenow, Apr 12, 2013.

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  1. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Dude, I had a look at your first 'news' story and it's just right-wing denialism dressed up science. Seriously, learn to follow your sources through to the end! Who do they quote? A trained climatologist? No. A denialist blogger with a bit of a science degree. "climate blogger Pierre Gosselin"

    Who is he?

    "I’m a US citizen, received an Associate Degree in Civil Engineering at Vermont Technical College and a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering at the University of Arizona in Tucson. Now I live in Europe and help my wife, the owner, run a small business that provides services for industry. I’ve always been a skeptic of the AGW hypothesis, and view myself as a mere spectator in the climate change debate and arena."

    Aw, ain't he cute? He's an engineer who wanna be a climatologist when he grows up. Except he isn't. :doh:

    Next? :doh:

    Hint: check your sources before you embarrass yourself like this.
     
  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member

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    If you check the credentials of many of the "scientists" that are regularly quoted for ANG, you will see that their credentials pale into nothingness beside his.

    But did you even bother examine the ultimate source I gave? The Danish government's Center for Ocean and Ice!!!!

    (But of course, I suppose the Danish government actually knows nothing about Arctic Ice, as it is of no legitimate interest to them.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  3. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    You're not interested in what the peer-reviewed guys make of this data but only the opinions of some unqualified quack. In the meantime, the real store of heat just keeps rising... the oceans.

    *****


    Some 90% of total global warming goes into heating the oceans. NOAA has several charts showing that the oceans are rapidly heating, just as climate scientists predicted. Here’s one:
    [​IMG]
    As the saying goes, what goes down must come up. Ocean heat is going to come back up. That is precisely why climatologists predict a looming climate shift to rapid surface warming, as discussed here.

    In Hot Water: Ocean Heat Content Continues To Soar | ThinkProgress
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member

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    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2013
  5. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    The AMSR2 satellite was only launched a few years ago, so I don’t know how they claim it can have measured sea ice from the 1970’s! Not only that, but Antarctica hasn't really started to melt badly yet. Due to the insolation & continental landmass gathering for the Northern Hemisphere, the climate modelling is consistent with the Arctic melting more, and Antarctica taking a while longer to do so. However, even Antarctic melting is starting to accelerate beyond the model's worst simulations. I have already mentioned the studies that refer to parts of Antarctica COOLING while the globe warms... due to the fact that the Antarctic Vortex has increased, trapping much snow on the continent that would otherwise have fallen across South Australia as rain. This is a result of the extra energy in the spinning circular vortex system... tightening it in like an ice skater who moves their arms in tight to geat more velocity in a turn.
    However, other parts of the continent not as affected by these 'trapped' snowstorms are starting to show melting.
    "BOULDER—In a finding that raises further concerns about the future contribution of Antarctica to sea level rise, a new study finds that the western part of the continent’s ice sheet is experiencing nearly twice as much warming as previously thought....

    "
    In addition to offering a more complete picture of warming in West Antarctica, the new study shows for the first time that significant melt is occurring during summer. Monaghan says the summertime warmth is particularly troubling because that is the season in which enhanced surface melting could most affect the WAIS and potentially weaken the ice shelves that buttress it.
    “We've already seen enhanced surface melting contribute to the breakup of the Antarctic’s Larsen B Ice Shelf, where glaciers at the edge discharged massive sections of ice into the ocean that contributed to sea level rise,” he says. “The stakes would be much higher if a similar event occurred to an ice shelf restraining one of the enormous WAIS glaciers.""
    West Antarctica warming more than expected | UCAR - University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
    Regards
     
  6. berachah

    berachah Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth

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    Global warming is a man made con designed to ultimately tax every living creature on the earth. The carbon tax/ emmissions tax schemes do absolutely nothing to reduce co2 , but it does a lot to make certain people very wealthy.

    A great source of real fact on the matter

    http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/sh1/the_skeptics_handbook_2-3_lq.pdf

    including comments below


    CO2 feeds plants. It’s the only” pollution” pumped onto farms to grow food. Did you know plant life goes dormant if CO2 falls too low? Farmers don’t just pump in an extra 5 or 10% either, they ramp up the concentration 4 or 5 fold in greenhouses. Did the government scientists forget to mention that?
    Australia is the largest exporter of coal in the world. But did they say that China digs up nearly 10 times more coal than we do?
    The famous ice core graphs of Al Gore — expanded to 20 meters square — turned out to show the opposite of what he claimed. Temperatures drive carbon and lead it by 800 years. Worse,iIt was well known, and not contested two years before he made his movie.
    Global warming stopped, and none of the models predicted that.
    The endless droughts — ended.
    All that CO2 and Global storms hit their lowest level for 30 years.
    And you have to wonder: nearly 90% of the thermometers in the US are too close to artificial heat sources. 90%. How much do the climate science team care about the science?
    75% of thermometers used in the 1980’s have dropped off the official record. All that money, and less instruments to measure with…
    They adjust the data — sometimes 50 years after it was recorded. Think about that. The 1970’s kept warming for the next 30 years.
    3000 ocean buoys looked and couldn’t find most of the missing heat that our planet is supposed to be storing.
    6000 boreholes tell us the world was warmer 1000 years ago, and even warmer again 5000 years ago. None of the models can explain that.
    all the models predict a hot spot, and 28 million weather balloons can’t find it;
    31,500 scientists don’t think we need a carbon tax. That includes 9000 phd’s. There’s a grassroots revolt going on out there. This was done by volunteers, and done twice. There’s never been another petition like it in science, ever. Did the media forget to tell you that too?
    For every dollar paid to a skeptic, big government paid 3500 to global warmers.
     
  7. berachah

    berachah Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth

    498
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    Global warming is a man made con designed to ultimately tax every living creature on the earth. The carbon tax/ emmissions tax schemes do absolutely nothing to reduce co2 , but it does a lot to make certain people very wealthy.

    A great source of real fact on the matter

    http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/sh1/the_skeptics_handbook_2-3_lq.pdf

    including comments below


    CO2 feeds plants. It’s the only” pollution” pumped onto farms to grow food. Did you know plant life goes dormant if CO2 falls too low? Farmers don’t just pump in an extra 5 or 10% either, they ramp up the concentration 4 or 5 fold in greenhouses. Did the government scientists forget to mention that?
    Australia is the largest exporter of coal in the world. But did they say that China digs up nearly 10 times more coal than we do?
    The famous ice core graphs of Al Gore — expanded to 20 meters square — turned out to show the opposite of what he claimed. Temperatures drive carbon and lead it by 800 years. Worse,iIt was well known, and not contested two years before he made his movie.
    Global warming stopped, and none of the models predicted that.
    The endless droughts — ended.
    All that CO2 and Global storms hit their lowest level for 30 years.
    And you have to wonder: nearly 90% of the thermometers in the US are too close to artificial heat sources. 90%. How much do the climate science team care about the science?
    75% of thermometers used in the 1980’s have dropped off the official record. All that money, and less instruments to measure with…
    They adjust the data — sometimes 50 years after it was recorded. Think about that. The 1970’s kept warming for the next 30 years.
    3000 ocean buoys looked and couldn’t find most of the missing heat that our planet is supposed to be storing.
    6000 boreholes tell us the world was warmer 1000 years ago, and even warmer again 5000 years ago. None of the models can explain that.
    all the models predict a hot spot, and 28 million weather balloons can’t find it;
    31,500 scientists don’t think we need a carbon tax. That includes 9000 phd’s. There’s a grassroots revolt going on out there. This was done by volunteers, and done twice. There’s never been another petition like it in science, ever. Did the media forget to tell you that too?
    For every dollar paid to a skeptic, big government paid 3500 to global warmers.
     
  8. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Hi.
    You're spamming this thread a bit. I'd prefer it if we kept it to a few things at a time, as I'd love to discuss your problems with climate science, but bit by bit, not all at once. That's unfair. I simply don't have the time. So I'm going to try addressing just 4: Conspiracy, Plant Food, Political Incompetence and Temperatures lead Carbon.

    1: CONSPIRACY
    Please prove who organised this conspiracy to involve every single physics lab on the planet? You're seriously attempting to assert that any scientist could disprove global warming, it's just they're all in on a mad conspiracy? Wow. That's up there with 'the moon landing was faked'.


    2. PLANT FOOD
    I'm REALLY BORED! You're boring me. I'm sorry, but I've heard this ridiculous myth so many times you're putting me to sleep. Let me ask you this: does your body require water? Does your body also excrete water? If you get too much water, [​IMG]? If you get too little, can you die of dehydration?

    Your argument amounts to someone saying, "Hey, humans need water so lets shove 40 litres of water through their bodies every day!" Plants require CO2, but like many things in nature, it's a matter of balance. Just saying “Co2 = plant food, therefore more plant food will be good for them and force them to grow bigger” is about as sensible as saying “Pizza is human food, therefore more Pizza will be good for them and FORCE them to grow bigger!”

    We might in truth get bigger. But the trite summary above ignores diabetes, heart disease, circulatory problems and ... death. Plants are also vulnerable to various problems if they get too much 'plant food'. It messes with their self-defence toxins. Some produce too little; others too much.

    Less toxic makes them more vulnerable to bug attacks.
    The “CO2 is Good for Plants” Crock. Turns out — not so much. | Climate Denial Crock of the Week

    More toxic renders them inedible to us or livestock.
    How plants respond to increasing carbon dioxide - The Science Show - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Also, let's not forget the carbon impacts on atmospheric temperatures and increased moisture movement. Every extra degree of temperature allows the atmosphere to carry 5% more moisture. That means increased evaporation and drought in drying areas, and increased precipitation in dumping areas. It means increased floods and famines. It means less crops for us. Go look this stuff up. You might learn something.


    Did you forget to provide EVIDENCE of exactly WHICH crops can tolerate these higher levels? DId you forget that many OTHER crops REACT NEGATIVELY to higher CO2, as I have shown above? Hmmm. Not oversimplifying anything to drum home your Denialism, are we? ;) :p

    3. POLITICAL INCOMPETENCE
    Not sure what you are trying to get at here: it does not destroy the science. If it's an attack on political hypocrisy, I'm probably going to shout AMEN BROTHER! Australia shouldn't be exporting our coal because we export twice more than we burn, and humanity needs to leave 4/5ths of the remaining fossil fuels underground if we want to avoid shoving our children and grandchildren into Mad Max.

    4. TEMPERATURE LEADS CARBON
    I AGREE! This does happen.

    Denialist's attacked Al Gore's rather simplistic presentation of the ice-ages graph. In 'An Inconvenient Truth' Al Gore *seemed* to suggest that climate science was based on the Ice Ages graph. In the movie, the way this graph was used suggested that changing Carbon Dioxide levels caused and then killed the Ice Ages; that Co2 was the driver of the Ice Age cycles.

    The Denialist's jumped on this, CORRECTLY pointing out that Co2 levels were *responding* to temperature changes, not causing them. Co2 levels *followed* the ice ages, but didn't cause them. Something else was driving the Ice Ages, and so the whole of climate gig was up!

    Except it's a straw-man attack. Yes the last 800,000 years of ice-core data confirm that the temperature changed first, then the Co2 followed. Yes, at first glance this looks contrary to how Al Gore presented it in the movie. But Al Gore was simplifying a MUCH more complex story that Denialist's simply will not explain.

    1. Climate science was *never* based on *just* that graph, but on the demonstrable physics of Co2 as a heat-trapper. We measure CO2's heat trapping properties with a Fourier device. It's the same result, every time. It's an established fact, like the boiling point of water or melting point of various metals. It's old science, something you look up in a book rather than bothering to test again and again, reinventing the wheel. The rest is maths. Calculate how much Co2 was in the air before the Industrial Revolution, and then measure how much extra we've dumped into the atmosphere now, and the difference shows how much extra heat is trapped. The next bit is the tricky part of measuring where that heat *goes* and how it interacts with other systems on the earth.

    2. But before we get there, back to Al Gore. Climate scientists *never* claimed that Co2 *drove* the Ice Age changes in Al Gore's graph! The story is much more complex. First, they know what the mysterious driver of the Ice Ages cycle is. Our Earth wobbles. It wobbles in orbit, axis, and tilt. Every 100,000 years these wobbles align and change the angle sunlight hits the earth. This is the 'trigger' that drives the Ice Ages Cycle. They are called Milankovitch cycles.
    Milankovitch cycles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But there's a problem. The increased or reduced sunlight is not enough to cause the immense changes in temperature that we observe!

    ///The orbital forcing is, however, relatively weak when considered on an annual globally averaged basis (the total insolation received by Earth has varied by 0.7 W m-2 over the past 160 kyr). The amplification of this forcing, the observed dominant 100-kyr cycle and the synchronised termination of the main glaciations and their similar amplitude in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres cannot easily be explained despite developments including the nonlinear response to ice sheets to orbital forcing.///

    Roughly 40% of the warming (or cooling) actually comes from Co2 released (or trapped) by changes in the ice. (See the 2nd paragraph, column 2 of page 144).

    http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1990/1990_Lorius_etal.pdf

    It turns out that as the sunlight is reduced and the temperature begins to drop, the ice sheets start to increase. This does two things. First, it increases the amount of sunlight that is bounced off the Earth. The ice acts like a big mirror, bouncing away the incoming radiation and preventing it turning into heat energy. More ice cools the earth more.

    Secondly, the expanding ice sheets lock Co2 under the new ice! This then interrupts the normal annual Co2 cycle. The next year is colder. Continue this process for a few centuries, and the Earth becomes a lot colder than it would just due to changes in the sunlight alone. In other words, if the 'wobbles' are the 'trigger', then Co2 is the gunpowder.

    From this more detailed perspective Al Gore was right! The Co2 *did* account for the *eventual* extremes of temperature we see at the depths of a bad Ice Age, and at the warmer temperatures between Ice Ages. But a Denialist will never tell you all this. They'll just ask "How can Co2 affect climate when it RESPONDS to changes in temperature!" But they leave out half the story. As always.

    For graphics of the Earth's 'wobbles' (called Milankovitch cycles) and more on this story please watch this excellent youtube presentation of the facts.
    The "Temp Leads Carbon" Crock: Updated - YouTube
     
  9. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    Not only is global warming entirely consistent with prophecy (and not just this one verse), but so is the denialism. You know exactly what I'm talking about: people over and over again (including Al Gore) saying we need to band together as humanity and tackle this problem to save ourselves--and time and again those people are scorned and ridiculed. You don't think stopping the killing and banding together to fight a common enemy glorifies God?
     
  10. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    1. First you must prove that you're even approaching Revelation in the right way. It's not a timetable of future events but a generic description of the Christian's spiritual struggle in ALL ages. John points out in chapter 1 that he already shares in their tribulation, and that it is all ultimately about the gospel. It's not a timetable, but a sermon, not prophecy of future events, but prophecy as the declared word of the Lord to a generation of Christians: that generation that lives between Jesus ascension and his return.

    2. We glorify God by loving Him and loving our neighbours as ourselves. Refusing to listen to climate science is irresponsible and unloving. Climate scientists, many of them Christians, tell us we only have a budget of 565gigatons before we commit the planet to 2 degrees. With our accelerating fossil fuel addiction, we'll add another 565 gigatons in just 15 years! So, by 2028 we'll have committed the planet to an extra 2 degrees (which will take a few decades to actually work into the ocean and climate systems). But that's not all! As all our new power stations are longer term commitments, it looks like we're heading for 4 or 6 degrees. That's the American breadbasket drying up and blowing away!
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member

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  12. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Mate, that piece is hilarious. Really. There's so much denialism in that paper that they seem to think the NW passage is a right, not a freaky event demonstrating the extreme climate change that's already begun. The reality is there are still seasonal adjustments, ice will still grow back during winter when that region of the world goes dark, and the previous summer saw it losing ice at an unprecedented rate.
    NSIDC Press Room: Arctic sea ice reaches lowest extent for the year and the satellite record

    I'm not sure if/when climate scientists are saying the Arctic will ever be ice free during winter, which is all besides the point.

    But thanks for sharing this whacky piece as it was a little light entertainment after a rather stressful day at work.

    It strikes me as sad that so many American Christians are so under the worldy spell of worldly economic philosophies that they can't pull back a moment, scan the big picture, and do something that will ultimately demonstrate God's love to this world. They can't take heartfelt action on behalf of the poor and vulnerable. They can't admit that sometimes the 'free market' (which is actually not free when it comes to energy because fossil fuels enjoy MASSIVE government subsidies) needs a little coercion to do the right thing. But Anglicans in NZ are doing the right thing. The sane thing! They're divesting. The entire Anglican Church of NZ has decided to divest all their superannuation out of fossil fuels. It's about time Christians made some noise on this issue! It was slavery a few centuries ago, and this generation will have its own great social concerns. Global warming is one of the most important of these!


    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11121968
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  13. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Typical Denialist's can't see the forest for the trees. Yes, the Arctic ice sometimes refreezes early. But no, the thick multi-year ice has not returned and Denialist's are embarrassing themselves if they point at one season's thin ice returning and then shout triumphantly. They're just broadcasting their ignorance! :doh:
    Has Arctic sea ice returned to normal?
     
  14. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Remember that 'CO2 is plant food' meme that was going around, and how truly wonderful increased CO2 was going to be for our forests and trees?

    Global warming is already changing rainfall patterns and increasing heat events to the point where trees across the planet are just dropping dead.



    [​IMG]



    https://theconversation.com/across-the-world-trees-are-dropping-dead-16360
     
  15. Ludicrus

    Ludicrus Junior Member

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    Hmm, the problem is that most go from being stewards to worshiping the creation rather than the Creator.

    But this scientific fact pretty much dispels the "theory" of climate change.

    Arctic Ice Expands, Dispelling Myths of Climate Change

    Wednesday, 11 September 2013 09:11


    Arctic Ice Expands, Dispelling Myths of Climate Change



    According to a report in the U.K. Mail on Sunday, a rapidly expanding ice sheet in the Arctic has definitively refuted the computer models used by advocates of the theory of man-made climate change. But the latest facts regarding “global cooling” have done little to cool the ardor of the theory’s advocates. And, in the assessment of some critics of the theory of global warming, the theory’s advocates would rather resort to ad hominem attacks than face the facts.
    The report from the Mail presents a picture of a theory that has now been refuted on the basis of observation. As David Rose writes:


    A chilly Arctic summer has left nearly a million more square miles of ocean covered with ice than at the same time last year — an increase of 60 per cent.
    The rebound from 2012’s record low comes six years after the BBC reported that global warming would leave the Arctic ice-free in summer by 2013.
    Instead, days before the annual autumn re-freeze is due to begin, an unbroken ice sheet more than half the size of Europe already stretches from the Canadian islands to Russia’s northern shores.




    :clap::clap::clap:

    Climate change, especially a man-made event, don't line up with God's Word, which says the judgments against the earth are caused by Him!!!

    And I wholeheartedly disagree that man can change ANYTHING ordained by God!
     
  16. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Yep...but that falsehood made a lot of money for a lot of people...Ask Al Gore.

    Not that some didn't really believe it though.
     
  17. Zanting

    Zanting Newbie

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    It seems to me that climate change, with all the conspiracy that surrounds it, is just one conspiracy in a forest of them. There are so many conspiracies out there to focus on that involve the slow systematic destruction of the world as we know it on every level, that people can't see the forest for the trees.

    When they do...then God's word becomes alive today...for this generation. It is He who is in control, not us. And I truly believe that these are the growing pains we all have to come to terms with because we are in very troubled times world wide, on many levels.

    For me as a Christian...what explains all the conspiracy theories out there (whether true or not) as a world wide phenomenon (internet enabling increased knowledge) is that the great deception is being unveiled and the world is paying attention.

    All will be revealed before Jesus returns and all people will know, and have had the opportunity to decide whether to accept or reject Jesus the Saviour and God the Father and be blessed with the Holy Spirit.
     
  18. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    "Stop!! Don't put laws on limiting lead poisoning (or mercury poisoning or radioactive waste or dumping rubbish in the streets or spraying sewer into our freshwater dams)! That would be too much like worshipping the creation rather than the Creator!" Are you sure you're not just worshipping the free market instead? ;) Are you sure you're not just failing to love your neighbour in the face of something that threatens the global poor SO BADLY that masses of us rich, self-indulgent Westerners are just reacting with childish denial of the facts?

    Do you have ANY idea about the multi-year thickness of that ice? Yes, the Arctic has seasonal fluctuations. That's a FACT! The ice regrows each year. Also a FACT! But here's another FACT! Climatologists know this. It does not challenge global warming. Asserting that it does just shows ignorance of the facts.

    A thin season of winter ice regrowing where once multi-year thick ice once permanently floated does NOT undo these other FACTS:-

    • There is less total ice
    • Less multi-year thickness
    • CO2 TRAPS heat: this can be demonstrated again and again and again in a lab.
    • Extra CO2 traps MORE heat: this also can be demonstrated again and again and again.
    • Spring arrives earlier and Autumn arrives later
    • Bugs are hatching out of sequence to the spring shoots they used to feed on
    • Glaciers are melting
    • Temperatures are rising
    • The oceans are warming and rising
    • The atmosphere carries an extra 5% water than 40 years ago because a warmer atmosphere carries more moisture.
    • This increases droughts in some areas (as more water is carried away) and flooding in other areas, as more water is dumped.
    • This also increases super-storms.

    So go ahead and applaud yourself. :clap::clap::clap: As far as I'm concerned, you've just joined this guy. And the Republican Koch-brothers fuelled Denialosphere has joined you.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Oh ha ha. And the Koch brothers and other coal and oil and gas barons don't accumulatively have trillions invested in business as usual? :doh: Honestly, did you ever consider the fact that a climatologist might earn over $100,000 a year (if they're really lucky), but the CEO of Exxon earns $100,000 A DAY!???

    Who really has an investment in lying and an investment in the truth? ;)
    Denialist's are so gullible.
     
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