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Global warming and the end

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eclipsenow

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Search for yourself...it's there...lots of it...including your fondness of scientific proof. In fact...only you can do it. :D Maybe you'll learn something.
The Radiative Forcing Equation confirms exactly how much extra heat our Industrial CO2 is trapping. It's right on target, and is confirmed by every scientific institution on the planet.

Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you need to ask why you let your political worldview dominate your scientific one? Because I'm certain only you can answer that!
 
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Biblewriter

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The Radiative Forcing Equation confirms exactly how much extra heat our Industrial CO2 is trapping. It's right on target, and is confirmed by every scientific institution on the planet.

Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you need to ask why you let your political worldview dominate your scientific one? Because I'm certain only you can answer that!
The part of this that I highlighted in boldface is a flat out lie. The Global warming crowd comes up with this fiction only by falsely claiming that every group that denies their theories in not a scientific institution.
 
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Biblewriter

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eclipsenow

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The part of this that I highlighted in boldface is a flat out lie. The Global warming crowd comes up with this fiction only by falsely claiming that every group that denies their theories in not a scientific institution.
The part that I highlighted in bold is a flat out lie.
They're not.
 
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eclipsenow

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This article is by the Science and Public Policy Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which is basically a recalcitrant collection of Denialists who have had their pet anti-warming theories rejected by the peer-reviewed climate science. While publishing some stuff in their various fields, their more recalcitrant theories have been reviewed and rejected. So they form a club of like-minded, grumpy denialists. Quoting groups like this is like quoting "World is flat" scientists. They might be scientists... but so what?
 
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Biblewriter

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In case anyone is still wondering about the old maps of the 'Great Southern Land' here is proof that Biblewriter's 'Antarctica map' is just a sprawling act of the imagination, then set your eyes on this huge, bloated, sprawling super-continent to the south!
This is Orontius Finnaeus's great work, and the LEGEND even says it includes reference to the recently discovered archipelago of Tierra del Fuego - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia!

Map-heart-054.jpg



Oronce Finé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One has to do all kinds of magic and distortion to reduce the bloated size of this hypothetical Great Southern Land, and IGNORE THE CARTOGRAPHER'S STATED SOURCES OF INSPIRATION FOR HIS CREATION!!!

This claim is blatantly fraudulent. For even a child could see the drastic difference between this map and the one I posted.

But this map is actually the proof of what I have been saying. The map I posted was drawn in 1531 by the same man that drew this map 28 years later in 1559.

The drastic difference between the accurate map of Antarctica in his earlier map and the grossly distorted version in his later, "corrected" version shows that the first map was based on some unknown earlier source, while the later one was based on the guesswork that had become current at that time.
 
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eclipsenow

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But this map is actually the proof of what I have been saying. The map I posted was drawn in 1531 by the same man that drew this map 28 years later in 1559.

The drastic difference between the accurate map of Antarctica in his earlier map and the grossly distorted version in his later, "corrected" version shows that the first map was based on some unknown earlier source, while the later one was based on the guesswork that had become current at that time.

It's not about me any more, but about what Fine himself admits in the legend.

"On the same map, Fine drew Terra Australis to the south, including the legend "recently discovered but not yet completely explored," by which Finé meant the discovery of Tierra del Fuego by Ferdinand Magellan.[7]"


Or try these facts, also from the map legend:
The text box names the publisher (Hermannus Venraed), gives Fine's Latin name (Orontius Fineus), and mentions the Ancient Greek geographers (Ptolemy, Eudoxus, and Erastothenes), whose accounts Fine had tried to reconcile with the new discoveries being made.
One also has to ask what he meant by Terra Australis? Antarctica, or Australia? If you look into the history of it they simply didn't know what the 'Great Southern continent' looked like because it was all based on ancient Greek supposition.
Terra Australis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, the plot thickens. That 'Ross Sea' you keep harping on about? It may in fact have been the North of Australia, or more specifically, the Gulf of Carpentaria. (See map below, and historical analysis below that).

map_of_australia.jpg


Which historical sources believe Fino was actually drawing Australia, and why?

Try here.
Fine biography


"Leonardo da Vinci, for example, produced a globe with a southern land below Africa more than twenty years before Fine drew his map. The northern coast of Australia had probably been visited by Europeans by this time and the northern coast of Fine's Antarctica is probably drawn from such representations. There may also have been reports which did indeed represent the sighting of Antarctica and Fine put the reports together to produce a half real, half guessed, map. Of course this explanation puts the fact that Fine's Antarctica looks quite close to the actual Antarctica down to just good luck.

What evidence do we have for the above suggestion? On another map of about 1513 (also investigated by Hapgood) the following is written on land in this region:-
It is related by the Portuguese that on this spot, night and day are, at their shortest period, of two hours duration, and at longest phase, of twenty-two hours. But the day is very warm and in the night there is much dew.
The first sentence here suggests that Portuguese explorers had indeed reached Antarctic latitudes. The second sentence suggests a climate more like the north coast of Australia. Certainly this is evidence of Antarctica being confused with Australia and we suggest that Fine's 1531 map suffers from a similar confusion.
Poulle [1] sums up Fine's contributions as follows:-
Fine's scientific work may be briefly characterised as encyclopaedic, elementary, and unoriginal. It appears that the goal of his publications, which range in subject from astronomy to instrumental music, was to popularise the university science that he himself had been taught. "

An even more devastating historical source comes from page 1467 of this PDF from the History of Cartography:

The bicordiform projection emphasizes the depiction of the poles, and the austral lands include two regions, which Fine identifies as Brasielie regio and Regio patalis (names that had appeared in Schoner’s Luculentissima quaeda[m] terrae totius descriptio).

It's not that hard. It's on the 1531 map itself!


Robert J. King has suggested that Alfonse’s description of La Grande Jave could also fit the Regio Patalis promontory on Oronce Fine’s world map, and indicates that the Dieppe Maps appear to have conflated Marco Polo’s Greater Java with Fine’s Regio Patalis and Brasielie Regio.[18] On the Dieppe Maps, the great promontory of JAVE LA GRANDE (Greater Java) extends, like the Regio Patalis, northward from the Austral continent. The evolution of Fine’s REGIO PATALIS into JAVE LA GRANDE may have been influenced by the phrase used by Ludovico di Varthema, an Italian from Bologna who made a voyage in 1505 from Borneo to Java, who said that Java, “prope in inmensum patet (extends almost beyond measure)”.[19] Although the word patet (“extends”) has no connection with the city of Patala (now Thatta) at the mouth of the Indus River, which gave its name to the Regio Patalis (“Region of Patala”), the Dieppe mapmakers may have misunderstood the name to mean “the Extensive Region”. Ludovico di Varthema also said that he had been told by the captain of the ship in which he had made the voyage from Borneo that on the southern side of Java Major, to the southward, “there are peoples who sail with their backs to our stars of the north until they find a day of but 4 hours, where the day does not last more than four hours”, and that there it was colder than in any other part of the world.[20] The region where the shortest day would only last four hours would be in latitude 63° South. This could explain Jean Alfonse’s description of La Grande Jave as an extension of the giant Antarctic continent: “This Java touches the Straight of Magellan in the west, and in the east Terra Australis… I estimate that the coast of the Ocean Sea called the Austral coast extends eastwards [from the Straight of Magellan] to Java, to the western coast of the said Java”.[21] Guillaume Le Testu’s Grande Jave of 1556 is part of the Terre Australle, and bears a Baie Braecillie on its northwest coast, an appellation, as noted by Armand Rainaud in 1893, “which without doubt comes from the globes of Schoener and the maps of Oronce Fine”.[22] This appellation appears on other Dieppe maps as baie bresille on the Rotz map, Baye bresille on the Harleian, and Baye bresill on the Desceliers, indicating the reliance of their makers on the Schoener/Fine cosmography. Johannes Schoener defined Brasilia australis as “an immense region toward Antarcticum newly discovered but not yet fully surveyed, which extends as far as Melacha and somewhat beyond; close to this region lies the great island of Zanzibar”.[23] On Fine’s 1531 mappemonde, BRASIELIE REGIO is shown as part of the Terra Australis lying to the east of Africa and to the south of Java, just where Schoener located BRASIELIE REGIO on his 1523 globe, and where the Dieppe maps locate their Baye Bresille. King concludes that the Dieppe cartographers appear to have transposed Marco Polo’s Java Minor and Java Major and combined the relocated Java Major with Fine’s Brasielie Regio and Regio Patalis, which were both part of the Terra Australis.[24]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jave_la_Grande#Jave_la_Grande_as_a_composite_of_Regio_Patalis_and_Brasielie_Regio

In other words, they've got bits of Java and India all mixed up with this infinitely sprawling 'Great Southern Land' idea of the ancient Greeks.​
 
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Zanting

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Biblewriter

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It's not about me any more, but about what Fine himself admits in the legend.

"On the same map, Fine drew Terra Australis to the south, including the legend "recently discovered but not yet completely explored," by which Finé meant the discovery of Tierra del Fuego by Ferdinand Magellan.[7]"


Or try these facts, also from the map legend:
The text box names the publisher (Hermannus Venraed), gives Fine's Latin name (Orontius Fineus), and mentions the Ancient Greek geographers (Ptolemy, Eudoxus, and Erastothenes), whose accounts Fine had tried to reconcile with the new discoveries being made.
One also has to ask what he meant by Terra Australis? Antarctica, or Australia? If you look into the history of it they simply didn't know what the 'Great Southern continent' looked like because it was all based on ancient Greek supposition.
Terra Australis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, the plot thickens. That 'Ross Sea' you keep harping on about? It may in fact have been the North of Australia, or more specifically, the Gulf of Carpentaria. (See map below, and historical analysis below that).

map_of_australia.jpg


Which historical sources believe Fino was actually drawing Australia, and why?

Try here.
Fine biography


"Leonardo da Vinci, for example, produced a globe with a southern land below Africa more than twenty years before Fine drew his map. The northern coast of Australia had probably been visited by Europeans by this time and the northern coast of Fine's Antarctica is probably drawn from such representations. There may also have been reports which did indeed represent the sighting of Antarctica and Fine put the reports together to produce a half real, half guessed, map. Of course this explanation puts the fact that Fine's Antarctica looks quite close to the actual Antarctica down to just good luck.

What evidence do we have for the above suggestion? On another map of about 1513 (also investigated by Hapgood) the following is written on land in this region:-
It is related by the Portuguese that on this spot, night and day are, at their shortest period, of two hours duration, and at longest phase, of twenty-two hours. But the day is very warm and in the night there is much dew.
The first sentence here suggests that Portuguese explorers had indeed reached Antarctic latitudes. The second sentence suggests a climate more like the north coast of Australia. Certainly this is evidence of Antarctica being confused with Australia and we suggest that Fine's 1531 map suffers from a similar confusion.
Poulle [1] sums up Fine's contributions as follows:-
Fine's scientific work may be briefly characterised as encyclopaedic, elementary, and unoriginal. It appears that the goal of his publications, which range in subject from astronomy to instrumental music, was to popularise the university science that he himself had been taught. "

An even more devastating historical source comes from page 1467 of this PDF from the History of Cartography:



It's not that hard. It's on the 1531 map itself!





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jave_la_Grande#Jave_la_Grande_as_a_composite_of_Regio_Patalis_and_Brasielie_Regio

In other words, they've got bits of Java and India all mixed up with this infinitely sprawling 'Great Southern Land' idea of the ancient Greeks.​

All this nonsense, and that is all it is, cannot get rid of the fact that the actual continent, as drawn (not described) in the Orenteus Fineaus Map of 1531 varies from the actual continent of Antarctica by no more than 300 miles at any point. Nor can you get rid of the fact that it shows these coastlands as modern soundings have determined they actually exist under the mile of ice that currently covers Antarctica. Nor can it get rid of the fact that the map not only shows the two main bays in the correct relationship to each other, it also shows minor bays in the correct locations on these main bays, and shows rivers in the locations where modern soundings have found valleys.

You have concentrated on mountains shown in locations where you pretend there are none, and the absence of the antarctic peninsula, while simply pretending that the uncanny accuracy of the map as a whole. The absence of the peninsula may be an imagined "correction," based on the very partial explorations that had been made at this time.

What your raving has totally neglected to notice is, that in attempting to reconcile all the ancient reports mentioned in your articles, Orenteus Finaeus somewhere stumbled upon an accurate map of Antarctica that he used as a source for his 1531 map.

Since the lurkers will have by now lost track of what I am talking about, I will re-post the map itself, plus a second map with the same features projected according to the rules of cartography onto a modern map of Antarctica. By saying "projected according to the rules of cartography," I mean that each feature is shown on the new map in the same latitude and longitude that it was shown in on the ancient map. Your supposition about this map actually representing Australia is nothing short of ludicrous. Just try to accurately project the southern land mass of the Orentrus Finaeus map of 1531 onto a modern map of Australia. You will find that the correspondence is close to zero. And you cannot escape the fact that the map shows this land at the south pole, not even close to where Australia is located.

On the other hand, The "corrected" map he drew 28 years later, shows Antarctica distorted to include Australia as part of the same land mass.

Antarctica from Orenteus Fineaus Map of 1531:

130987d1373917461-orenteus-finaeus-antarctica.jpg


Features from this map, projected according to the rules of cartography onto a modern map of Antarctica:

130978d1373844418-oronteus-fineaus-map-redrawn-superimposed-modern-map.jpg


You can rant, you can rage, you can mock. But you cannot escape the proof presented here. But please continue with your lame attempts to discredit the map. All you are doing is compounding proof of what I said in the first place, that this map is conclusive proof that someone made an accurate map of Antarctica in the distant past, and that at the time that map was made, at least the coastlands of Antarctica were not covered with ice.

Who knows, maybe the Bible is true after all!!!!! Maybe the things God said will happen will actually happen. And maybe, just maybe, the things He said did happen actually did happen.
 
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Biblewriter

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I don't see how any Christian can deny that global warming is real, when it is prophesied in their Bible. (see Rev. 16:8-9)

If this vision is meant to be taken literally it shows the heat produced by the sun increasing, not the earth trapping more heat from the sun. If that were the case, then nothing we could possibly do could affect it in any way.

But from the beginning of the Bible to its end, without even one exception, every time we are given a prophetic vision followed by an inspired explanation of its meaning, the meaning is something completely different from what the prophet saw. The visions are always symbolic, and the symbolism is always moral, rather than physical.

I believe that the sun represents the supreme earthly authority, so this vision would represent the supreme earthly authority becoming autocratic and oppressive.

(And you thought I was a strict literalist.) I am a strict literalist in regard to explicit statements that certain events were going to take place. For each and every one of these, I insist that every detail of every one of these prophetic statements either has been fulfilled or will be fulfilled in the future. So if we know that such-and-such an event has never happened, we know it will happen in the future. Otherwise, God lied when He said it would happen.
 
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interpreter

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If this vision is meant to be taken literally it shows the heat produced by the sun increasing, not the earth trapping more heat from the sun. If that were the case, then nothing we could possibly do could affect it in any way.

But from the beginning of the Bible to its end, without even one exception, every time we are given a prophetic vision followed by an inspired explanation of its meaning, the meaning is something completely different from what the prophet saw. The visions are always symbolic, and the symbolism is always moral, rather than physical.

I believe that the sun represents the supreme earthly authority, so this vision would represent the supreme earthly authority becoming autocratic and oppressive.

(And you thought I was a strict literalist.) I am a strict literalist in regard to explicit statements that certain events were going to take place. For each and every one of these, I insist that every detail of every one of these prophetic statements either has been fulfilled or will be fulfilled in the future. So if we know that such-and-such an event has never happened, we know it will happen in the future. Otherwise, God lied when He said it would happen.
First century readers would not have understood heat-trapping gases. The end result is the sun feels warmer. The 7 last plagues are now being poured out, including skin cancer, red tides and global warming.
 
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Zanting

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I don't see how any Christian can deny that global warming is real, when it is prophesied in their Bible. (see Rev. 16:8-9)

Global warming...in the Bible...OK...that sure is subject to interpretation...acts of God are not man made phenomenon in any way shape or form...Gods power is far greater than anything man could ever do...

Weather manipulation, agenda 21, increasing taxes...on the other hand...is a man made phenomenon...and cannot even begin to be compared to Gods supreme power.

God's power, unquestionably, is in control of all things, past present and future...and we are headed exactly where God said we would. His power will put an end to man's deviance and all people will face judgement when that time comes.

This whole global warming phenomenon is suggesting...one spend time looking at trees and not see the forest at all.
 
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eclipsenow

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Perhaps you should have said my Christian world view!
I know plenty of PHD's in theology who take the bible and global warming very seriously.
 
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eclipsenow

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Global warming...in the Bible...OK...that sure is subject to interpretation...acts of God are not man made phenomenon in any way shape or form...Gods power is far greater than anything man could ever do...
Oh, fine, then according to that logic mankind could not have wiped out the Dodo bird that God created, or any of thousands of other critters God loved enough to create. Mankind could not have doubled the size of the Sahara desert, felled forests, flooded valleys with our dams, or converted most of the world's arable land to farmland. Mankind could not be destroying vast chunks of rainforest at ever faster rates, be building a layer of plastic across God's oceans, or consuming so much fresh water that world's rivers do not make it to the sea.

Hey, why not go all the way back to the fall of Adam and Eve and deny that God could allow this to happen, because God's power is far greater than anything man could ever do...?

Weather manipulation, agenda 21, increasing taxes...on the other hand...is a man made phenomenon...and cannot even begin to be compared to Gods supreme power.
Do you believe in lead poisoning? Can arsenic kill people? Do you believe in pollution? Have you seen whales suffocated by plastic, or birds starving to death from bellies full of plastic pegs and bottle caps?

God's power, unquestionably, is in control of all things, past present and future...and we are headed exactly where God said we would. His power will put an end to man's deviance and all people will face judgement when that time comes.

This whole global warming phenomenon is suggesting...one spend time looking at trees and not see the forest at all.
Apparently one can read the bible and not learn how to love one's neighbour or use one's mind.
 
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eclipsenow

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Orenteus Finaeus somewhere stumbled upon an accurate map of Antarctica that he used as a source for his 1531 map.
Please prove that statement. You disagree with a number of historical source documents that EXPLAIN his guesswork, and show it!

Your supposition about this map actually representing Australia is nothing short of ludicrous.
Completely misquoting your opposition like that would fail you in a Year 9 English debating team. I never claimed he drew a map of Australia, that's childish *and* dishonest.

If you read what the HISTORIANS I am quoting said, they claim that maybe the top end of Australia *contributed* a little to the shape of the Terra Australis map. I'm merely extrapolating from that with a little guesswork of my own where the 'bay' (what you think of as the Ross Sea) came from on his map, as we have no historical evidence he actually went there, and plenty evidence that he made up this continent from a patchwork quilt of sources!

"Fine put the reports together to produce a half real, half guessed, map."
Jave la Grande - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you care to explain why he names part of the Great Southern Land "BRASIELIE REGIO" and the other part "REGIO PATALIS"?

Oh, and I'm right, there really ARE no mountains on the bottom right of the map oriented this way. Dark Green is practically sea-level, and yes, that's a deglaciated map!

Antarctica_Without_Ice_Sheet.png


But, here's the real kicker. The map is totally out of scale!

To show that Orontius’s Terra Australis corresponds to the outline of Antarctica, it was necessary for Hapgood to rotate the depiction by about twenty degrees, move the South Pole by 7½° (1,600 km) and alter the scale, as Terra Australis is 230% the size of Antarctica. Hapgood used this change in scale to explain the absence of the Antarctic Peninsula (Palmer Land), which he believed Orontius Finaeus had to omit from his map as it would have overlapped with South America at that scale; he explained that Finaeus confused latitude 80° south with the Antarctic Circle. Just as with his treatment of Piri’s map, Hapgood also had to shuffle whole sections of coastline to make them fit. It is unclear how the hypothesised original map had become fragmented and wrongly recombined; it is even more unclear how the fringe writers can go on to claim that various geographical features are shown in their correct places and at the correct scale. Again, these writers ignore what we know about the life of Oronce Fine.
The Orontius Finaeus map | Bad Archaeology

Let's check the scale again...

antarctica.jpg


Oopos!

Oh, and the top end of Australia? There's the overall shape of the Gulf of Carpentaria, but there's also the islands.

timor-sea-map.jpg


Your argument just crashed and burned... Oh the humanity!

But hey, otherwise your maps are EXACTLY THE SAME! And if I did just a bit of photoshop, just a little bit, I could make you look like Margaret Thatcher! Or Elvis! Or Santa Clause flying home not to the North Pole, but to a South Pole that is 1600km's off target and balmy and warm, and yet to be discovered in the real world. Take your pick... Photoshop distortions rock! ;)
 
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Zanting

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Oh, fine, then according to that logic mankind could not have wiped out the Dodo bird that God created, or any of thousands of other critters God loved enough to create. Mankind could not have doubled the size of the Sahara desert, felled forests, flooded valleys with our dams, or converted most of the world's arable land to farmland. Mankind could not be destroying vast chunks of rainforest at ever faster rates, be building a layer of plastic across God's oceans, or consuming so much fresh water that world's rivers do not make it to the sea.

Hey, why not go all the way back to the fall of Adam and Eve and deny that God could allow this to happen, because God's power is far greater than anything man could ever do...?


Do you believe in lead poisoning? Can arsenic kill people? Do you believe in pollution? Have you seen whales suffocated by plastic, or birds starving to death from bellies full of plastic pegs and bottle caps?

God's power, unquestionably, is in control of all things, past present and future...and we are headed exactly where God said we would. His power will put an end to man's deviance and all people will face judgement when that time comes.


Apparently one can read the bible and not learn how to love one's neighbour or use one's mind.

Extreme and out of context...but do carry on...
 
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eclipsenow

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Extreme and out of context...but do carry on...

OK, so basically you grant we can mess up God's world in almost every way but for climate? OK.... :confused: :doh: Sorry, I don't follow your logic at all.
 
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Zanting

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OK, so basically you grant we can mess up God's world in almost every way but for climate? OK.... :confused: :doh: Sorry, I don't follow your logic at all.

That's because you don't read what's being said...:doh:

Your preconceived notions color what is said...:doh:

so indeed...you are confused:D
 
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