Global Rain

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2007

My issue is with which of us humans gets to define what is heresy, what is hypocrisy, and what is a minor exegetical problem?

What is clear in the Bible should be accepted. But Christ had patience even with doubting Thomas, who He allowed to physically confirm His body after the resurrection. If Christ had so much patience then, what makes you think that He won't have patience with someone who don't believe in a literal week creation now? The way that the SDA church teaches the literal week creation I can see why modern educated men and women reject it.

Now I agree, we need some rules. If people are using the church to prey upon our youth, they should be removed from the church. But for doctrinal variation, particularly if they aren't teachers/preachers I think it is best to allow them to stay if they so desire. Of course, if doctrines are too different, they should find a church that better fits their doctrines.

JM

woobadooba · Jun 12, 2007

mjona3 said:
My issue is with which of us humans gets to define what is heresy, what is hypocrisy, and what is a minor exegetical problem?

We don't need to worry about who defines heresy, since the Bible is easy to follow in most cases, and informs us of what we should believe.

What is clear in the Bible should be accepted.

And it isn't clear to you that the Apostles didn't compromise with heretics? I gave you several verses to prove this.

Do you still believe we should compromise with heresy?

But Christ had patience even with doubting Thomas, who He allowed to physically confirm His body after the resurrection.

Again, we aren't talking about doubt here, or lack of faith. We are talking about false doctrine.

If Christ had so much patience then, what makes you think that He won't have patience with someone who don't believe in a literal week creation now?

I never said that He doesn't have patience with these people. What I said is that such teachings are not to be tolerated, nor are they to be inculcated in our church, because they are false.

The way that the SDA church teaches the literal week creation I can see why modern educated men and women reject it.

That's an interesting comment coming from an SDA. So what exactly is it about the way SDAs explain the Creation account that you object to?

Now I agree, we need some rules. If people are using the church to prey upon our youth, they should be removed from the church. But for doctrinal variation, particularly if they aren't teachers/preachers I think it is best to allow them to stay if they so desire. Of course, if doctrines are too different, they should find a church that better fits their doctrines.

Again, I never said we should throw them out of the church. What I said is that we should shun their false teachings, and not allow them to teach in our church until they renounce their heretical ideas.

To allow them to teach in our church while knowing that they espouse views that are heretical, is to place the members of our church in a potentially dangerous situation.

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2007

I Think we should compromise with what you call heresy. I don't mean take their views, I mean allow their views to be held by members of this denomination.

People in the SDA church teach that evolution must be wrong, for creation to be right. Now only is this not true, it creates a crisis of doubt in the mind of beleivers. They have lots and lots of evidence that evolution is true, because of this, they have doubts. So it is the same as Thomas. A lot of 'heresy' is just reasonable doubts, which people have because of the discussion be framed in the wrong way by those who don't doubt but don't know what they are talking about (and of course the secularists/sceptics on the other side).

JM
(and it's not just evolution, it is also cosmology and geology)

woobadooba · Jun 12, 2007

mjona3 said:
I don't mean take their views, I mean allow their views to be held by members of this denomination.

JM

Leave this unchecked for a long enough time and eventually you will see people accepting their false views.

That is the point behind not compromising with heresy. Even Paul spelled this out in the verse that I gave you.

Did you read it?

I think the mistake that you are making is that you are assuming that if we don't accept them and their heresies that that would constitute that we don't love them.

That is false. You can correct someone and still love that person at the same time. In fact, you can even rebuke a person sharply and still love that person at the same time. You don't have to compromise with their false ideas to love them.

I think the church today has become too tolerant of false doctrine. It is no wonder why Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. It is because many want to receive His gift of eternal life, but there are only a few that take it seriously...

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2007

This once more comes into what do you view heresy, what do you view as doubt, what do you view as hyprocrisy, and what do you view as minor exegetical problems. I personally think that the "many are called, but few are chosen" verse is one of the most misused verses in the Bible. People use it to do the devil's work of accusing, dividing, and driving people from God.

Personally I think we should do a lot more to bring light to the hypocrits, and remove the abusers, and do less removal of those who worship differently than us or have more doubts. Not that I am saying that we should allow those who don't hold with Church doctrines to reach the pulpit. I don't even think I should lead a Bible class or anything because of my views on jewelry, alcohol, etc. The leaders and teachers of the denomination should reflect the denominations views.

JM

woobadooba · Jun 13, 2007

mjona3 said:
This once more comes into what do you view heresy, what do you view as doubt, what do you view as hypocrisy, and what do you view as minor exegetical problems.

Well, just as I used the Bible to refute your idea that we should compromise with heresy, I would use the same means to identify all of the above that you have mentioned.

It's not about what I think; rather, it's about what God's word clearly says about these things. If I can't use scripture as a means to refute such ideas then that either means I don't know my Bible too well, or that the scriptures do not oppose such ideas.

See 2Tim. 3:16-17 for Biblical verification of this approach to identifying the elements of heresy, doubt, and hypocrisy.

Endium · Jun 13, 2007

There should be no mix of truth and error. If so it is always the truth that will lose.

"Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened." 1 Cor. 5:6-7

And a real life example is the Catholic church. Compromise is never good for the truth.

Although this doesn't mean that we should seek out and destroy all those who have different beliefs than ours. The Bible is clear on many points. However Satan has managed to cast even some of the most simplistic truths into confusion (such as creation. If the 7 days were not literal, what does that imply for the sabbath?)

In the end, the purpose of rebuking someone in the church is for their own salvation, and for the salvation of who they have an influence over. If Christ did not come here to condemn, then most certainly His followers have no place doing so.

Purifying the church is not about condemnation, but it is allowing God to make the church more like Christ.

JonMiller · Jun 13, 2007

The Bible explicitly says not to purify the church though. No one has addressed that central point.

Timothy 2 3::16-17 says to use the Bible, well the 'heretics' are using the Bible also. They just have different interpretations. And they require these different interpretations to remain Christian because of what people like some of you in this thread say.

Additionally, 'heretics', like people who don't beleive in creation, aren't throwing away the Bible, they just have a different interpretation of it. Like us adventists having a different interpretation of Daniel. Just because someone has a (wrong) interpretation of a passage doesn't mean they are a heretic and driven from the church. It just means that they have less light.

JM

Endium · Jun 13, 2007

mjona3 said:
The Bible explicitly says not to purify the church though. No one has addressed that central point.

Where does the Bible say this? Are you suggesting that God's people should not be purified?

I understand that other people's beliefs are based on their interpretation of scripture, however any one individuals interpretation is not what counts. We shouldn't attempt to read from scripture our own private interpretations. 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Someone who chooses to interpret scripture based on what they want to believe, and not based on the Bible, is heading down the wrong path. The best way to interpret Scripture is to consider everything the Bible has to say on the subject. Isaiah 28:10. It is wrong to interpret one passage in a way so that it does not agree with other related things stated in the Bible.

Either way, I agree that just because someone has a wrong interpretation of scripture it doesn't mean that they should be driven from the church. That person should be corrected, in love. If the person refuses to accept the truth, however, then they are not following God.

As a church, we must guard against those who think to change the foundation of the gospel that we believe in. One such foundation is the story of creation. One who does this is accursed. "but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:7-8.

The story of creation in part describes the gospel of Christ, and at it's foundation is the sabbath. Those who try to destroy or alter this gospel are paving the way for people to be led away from God. How is it possible for someone who believes that the creation story told in Genesis did not span literal days, but many many years, to think that God wants us to hold a literal specific day (the 7th) as holy? I am just upset about this specifically because when I younger I thought maybe both creation and evolution could be true, but this is a sleazy attack of Satan to draw away sincere Christians from the truth.

JonMiller · Jun 13, 2007

They are interpreting it based upon the Bible. They are praying about it. Etc. They are honest seekers after truth.

You are judging them right now, which isn't our place but is God's. You are saying that they are purposefully doing things wrong, because you can't accept that they would think differently than you, that God might not have given them as much truth as you (or maybe gave them more?)

In many of these things, only God can convict, and He does so in His own time, not ours.

God should purify, not us humans.

JM

JonMiller · Jun 13, 2007

They (And I on somethings) view your interpretations as made up and not based upon scripture. Or in some cases, a rational reading of scripture leads to two different conclusions, the Bible isn't a simple book. All we can do is pray and allow God to lead us, and we are not all in the same place.

JM

Endium · Jun 14, 2007

mjona3 said:
You are judging them right now, which isn't our place but is God's. You are saying that they are purposefully doing things wrong, because you can't accept that they would think differently than you, that God might not have given them as much truth as you (or maybe gave them more?)

God should purify, not us humans.

JM

I am not judging anyone, or implying that if someone disagrees with me that they are purposefully doing things wrong.

I myself have many times been wrong with interpreting Scripture. And I thank God that someone was kind enough to correct me, and not leave me be, or I might still be in error on those points.

God should purify, but isn't it common for Him to do His work through us humans? Now you could say that it was the human trying to do the work, but we know it is from God. We can see that of things from the past, why can't we see that of things in the present? Who is to say that what we see a human trying to do now isn't the work of God?

Either way, let's pray that those who earnestly seek the truth will find it fully and completely.

woobadooba · Jun 14, 2007

Endium said:
I am not judging anyone, or implying that if someone disagrees with me that they are purposefully doing things wrong.

I myself have many times been wrong with interpreting Scripture. And I thank God that someone was kind enough to correct me, and not leave me be, or I might still be in error on those points.

God should purify, but isn't it common for Him to do His work through us humans? Now you could say that it was the human trying to do the work, but we know it is from God. We can see that of things the past, why can't we see that of things in the present? Who is to say that what we see a human trying to do now isn't the work of God?

Either way, let's pray that those who earnestly seek the truth will find it fully and completely.

The purpose of the gifts of the Spirit is to edify the church.

Each one of us has a gift which plays a part in bringing this objective to fruition.

So yes, God purifying the church through us is Biblical.

And these are the scriptures which back what I am saying...

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"(Eph 4:1-13)

Notice how it says, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith..." What this means is that as long as the Church is not united in the faith these gifts will remain.

However, there will come a time before Jesus returns that God's Church will be purified and united in the faith. Hence the reason for Paul's words: "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:26-27)

It's important to keep what was said in chapter 4 about the purpose of the gifts in mind when reading Eph. 5:26-27.

capnator · Jun 18, 2007

Global rain is due to start in 9 days time.. we should be all using this time to seek God and put away from our lives anything that is hindering a close walk. Everyone pray for God to wake us up individually and as a church, and seek God with all our hearts mind soul and strength.

smooze · Jun 18, 2007

Well it is really not about GOD answering prayers is issue but how HE does it. I think Jesus still is shaking HIS head and wondering how we could take such a simple thing as coming to GOD in prayer ( between you and HIM) and turning it in to a how to pray! I still say come to GOd and ask others to pray for you. BUt it seems time and time again all we are doing is shooting our mouths off so the person we are praying with can hear us babble and see how good we can out pray each other. I know people will say " where 2 or more are gahtered HE will hear us. I have an example " sermon on the mount" tells us not to belike the hypocrites who make a theatrical display in prayer so all can see how devote he or she is. I like the saying " they will know hHIS people by their actions"...CAn a so called NON-Christian act better than a christian and not have a label or church family who has a clean temple( body) BE saved. I'm sure we have taken a simple message and turned it into an essay! How do you explain a doctrine to a new believer and keeping our temples clean ( our gateway to JESUS of course) then on the other hand tell people they have to do this and have to do that when it really is simple. I'm sorry if this is offtopic but the power of prayer is real. I talked to GOD and asked to send me an angel and HE did MY wife! All the criteria and everything was there. But GOD doesn't give us gifts without strings attached to them haha Sometimes he seems not to be listening but in HIS infinite wisdom we don't need what were asking for or it's not in HIS scheme for us in our lives to provide things we seek in prayer. BUT i'm sure everyone has their own testimonies of praise. OOOH man what I'm trying to say is I believe we make religion more complicated and strict that it turns people away. Thats my 2 cent rant

smooze · Jun 18, 2007

I know what does this have to do with global rain lol

capnator · Jun 19, 2007

8 days to go.. start praying.

2Ch 7:14If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

capnator · Jun 27, 2007

Starts tonight I'm going, is anyone else here going?

Adventist Dissident · Jul 6, 2007

how is operation global rain doing

maco · Jul 6, 2007

icedragon101 said:
how is operation global rain doing

There is a lot of rain on this forum but it seems no one is getting wet...

Global Rain

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