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What else does the RCC have to appeal to?Trento after a couple posts like that its a wonder that you still fall for that unanimous consent tripe?
The have developing doctrines like universal authority ...It begins with a watermelon seed and grow into an oak tree...Magically.What else does the RCC have to appeal to?
Why was Pope Clement instructing the Church and Corinth?
Check it out:
Clement Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58-59,63[-]
Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy.
St. Clement of Rome97
What else does the RCC have to appeal to?
That is not my logic.Yeah, the Roman illusion is that proves Roman papal supremacy, when in fact, Clement, who was a disciple of Paul, and ordained by Paul, was very well known and intimate with the Corinthian church, having served there with Paul.
So, naturally, Clement would be concerned about those whom he knew and was intimate with.
But using your illogic, Irenaeus was the supreme ruler because Irenaeus stepped in and rebuked both Anicetus and Victor when they tried to bring charges against Polycarp and Polycrates during the Quartodeciman controversy, and forced both Anicetus and Victor to repent of their arrogance. Ireneaus spoke and the matter was settled.
It's funny you can accept and acknowledge catholics in the 1500's were unsound biblically yet base much of your theology on ones from the 4th and 5th century, rather than whats clear in scripture? what gives?
We reject it because its a patchwork of 1/2 truths forgeries and contradictory to and absent from scripture doctrines.
I acknowledge no such thing.
Stick to the facts and your arguments will at least have a chance of persuasion!
I posted it to show that it was merely advice and soter proves that... The roman community was well developed that does NOT mean universal authority
Other examples of Papal authority being exercised in the first three centuries after Christ:
Pope Clement (88-97) wrote to the Church in Corinth in the year 96 to tell them to make changes in their attitudes and practices. The Early Church On-Line Encyclopedia (Ecole) Initiative, a cooperative effort on the part of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant scholars across the Internet to establish links of early Church history, says "This letter is important because it indicates that the author was acting has the head of the Christian Church and that it was centered in Rome."
Pope Victor (189-199) ordered Easter to be celebrated throughout the world on Sunday, rather than on the 14th Nisan, whichever day of the week it happen to fall. All of the churches adopted Easter Sunday except those in Asia Minor. Pope Victor then excommunicated all the bishops in Asia Minor. While the Pope eventually relented in the excommunication, no one ever suggested that he did not have the authority.
Pope Calixtus (217-222) overruled those bishops who excommunicated for life all apostates, adulterers, and murderers, regardless of their repentance. The Pope decreed that all sinners with contrition could be absolved and received back into the Catholic Church.
After Pope Cornelius (251-253) was elected, he was faced with an antipope, Novatian, who promptly went about trying to consecrate bishops throughout the world who would be loyal to him. Naturally, this created tremendous uncertainty and confusion wherever Novatian tried to create false bishops over the heads of the legitimate bishops. This unequivocally shows the power of the Pope as the recognized leader of the worldwide Catholic Church.
Pope Stephen (254-257) removed certain bishops in Africa for heresy. Later he overruled a synod of African bishops which wanted to re-baptize lapsed Catholics returning to the faith and those converting to Catholicism from schismatic sects. The Pope made it very clear he was in charge and eventually prevailed in this matter.
Pope Dionysius (260-268) reprimanded Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria for misstatements on the Trinity. The Bishop then followed the Popes guidance.
Pope Sylvester (314-335) did not attend the First Council of Arles (314), thinking it unbecoming for him to leave Rome. Following Arles, the bishops there commended him for not leaving the spot "where the Apostles daily sit in judgment." He repeated this example at Nicaea, which his successors followed in the councils of Sardica (343), Rimini (359), and the Eastern ecumenical councils. At Nicaea, Pope Sylvester sent two priests as his legates, who helped preside over the sessions and who were the first to sign the cannons.
Pope Julius (337-352) decided that Athanasius, rather than Pistus, should be the Bishop of Alexandria. At the same time, he read the riot act to the Arians in Alexandria.
Because Pope Liberius (352-366) stood firm against Arianism, Emperor Constantius had him kidnapped and replaced with an antipope, Felix, who no one accepted. In captivity, the Pope was tortured until he signed a semi-Arian document, which, of course, was not valid. This episode clearly showed the vital role of the Pope in determining Catholic doctrine. The Pope returned to Rome and continued his fight for orthodoxy. He eventually succeeded in seeing many Arians come back to the Catholic Church.
I'd like to know whose unquestionably BAD translation this is???????Shamefully your not checking your sources!
Nearly all translations i've ever read say this...
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.v.html
the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God
What is any man who has been in the real outer world, for instance, to make of the everlasting cry that Catholic traditions are condemned by the Bible? It indicates a jumble of topsy-turvy tests and tail-foremost arguments, of which I never could at any time see the sense. The ordinary sensible sceptic or pagan is standing in the street (in the supreme character of the man in the street) and he sees a procession go by of the priests of some strange cult, carrying their object of worship under a canopy, some of them wearing high head-dresses and carrying symbolical staffs, others carrying scrolls and sacred records, others carrying sacred images and lighted candles before them, others sacred relics in caskets or cases, and so on. I can understand the spectator saying, This is all hocus-pocus; I can even understand him, in moments of irritation, breaking up the procession, throwing down the images, tearing up the scrolls, dancing on the priests and anything else that might express that general view. I can understand his saying, Your croziers are bosh, your candles are bosh, your statues and scrolls and relics and all the rest of it are bosh. But in what conceivable frame of mind does he rush in to select one particular scroll of the scriptures of this one particular group (a scroll which had always belonged to them and been a part of their hocus-pocus, if it was hocus-pocus); why in the world should the man in the street say that one particular scroll was not bosh, but was the one and only truth by which all the other things were to be condemned? Why should it not be as superstitious to worship the scrolls as the statues, of that one particular procession? Why should it not be as reasonable to preserve the statues as the scrolls, by the tenets of that particular creed? To say to the priests, Your statues and scrolls are condemned by our common sense, is sensible. To say, Your statues are condemned by your scrolls, and we are going to worship one part of your procession and wreck the rest, is not sensible from any standpoint, least of all that of the man in the street.
From : The Catholic Church and Conversion, by G.K. Chesterton
Clement does speak with force.
Would you like me to list all the writings I know from Hermas to Irenaeus? would you promise to read through them and in detail admit that NONE of these attach universal authority to the church at rome which vat 1 claims was "KNOWN FOR ALL AGES?" WOULD YOU READ AND ADMIT IF i SHOWED YOU?
Sorry, but your tirade about Protestant logic makes absolutely no sense to me . . . perhaps as a Catholic, it is your desire to present any logic that is not in agreement with yours as a chaotic mess!
As Catholics, that is our view.
We see the whole procession as logical. It fits together. Trying to pry the scriptures from the tradition, authority, liturgy, etc. seems illogical.
I can see how this would not be the intuitive view, however, if you maintained sola scriptura.(at least not until you had thoroughly studied the origins of the new testament!)
Best Regards
Squashing things is usually bad, especially parades because everyone loves 'em, so I won't have anything to do with that bit of it.
My question to Chesterton would be: how is it not reasonable to judge the value of a teacher by how he practices what he preaches?
You mean there are no non-RC Christians working with the poor?
I've noticed you say "bye" alot, but come back again and again.Ok. Bye Bye.
1 corin 11:26 For as often ever ye may be eating the bread, this, and the drink-cup ye may be drinking, the death of the Lord ye are according-messaging/kataggellete <2605> (5719) until which ever He may be coming/elqh <2064> (5632)
Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.
http://christianforums.com/t6920830&page=4
question-for-roman-catholics-only-on-parousia
Don't mean to derail you so I'll keep my response short. Ok, so there may be some mysteries in the Catholic traditions, but how can we say that it is the full truth when the full truth has yet to be revealed?
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