Given the Crusades etc, what do you make of the idea of a Christian State?

[RandyPNW]

All I can say to that is that the founders of the united states had historical reasons for the first amendment. And I don't want those events repeated, as they will necessarily be if the first amendment is ignored or abolished.

Ha! I can hear the media, in a situation where one group sees brotherhood, concern and safety for the population and another sees tyranny: "This wouldn't hurt, if you only stop struggling!" "Submit! Go with it; you'll see it isn't so bad after all."

Only God himself can do such a thing right.

The reason, I believe, for the 1st Amendment in the US Bill of Rights is due to the corruption of State Christianity, and not an effort to end the mix of the Christian Religion and the State. There had always been a distinction between Secular Rulers and Religious Rulers in Christian States.

This was an effort to prohibit a State Church, namely the Anglican Church, but not an effort to prohibit the Christian Religion in a disestablished way. A Christian State can exist as such without an established State Church.

The continued deterioration of Christianity in the West has contributed to the interpretation of the 1st Amendment as a means of prohibiting Christian control as it has become progressively corrupt. There were two ways to deal with it--either replace it with a revival of earlier pagan forms or pursue revivals of religion. Both took place.

Deism was actually a corruption of the Christian Religion, and led, I believe, to abuses like slavery, Indian oppression, and ultimately, the Civil War. Deism marginalized and rejected some critical elements of genuine Christianity, such as belief in the supernatural, miracles, and spiritual regeneration.

Essentially, this liberal form of "Christianity" was the embrace of a moral system modeled after original Christianity, but modified to allow comparisons with other non-Christian religious systems. It therefore lost the distinctives of Christian character that had made Christianity unique.

Going in the direction of liberalism and progressivism has made Christianity virtually irrelevant and subservient to the secularist state. The lines have been completely blurred now with the people of the US supporting abortion, homosexuality, and open acceptance of pagan and non-Christian expressions that formerly would not have been accepted in society and in the public schools.

 

[Miles]

I think religious affiliation should be, first and foremost, an internal decision for adults. A matter personal conscience, rather than conversion through coercion. If leadership can support this, allowing for the practice of other religions as long as they don’t violate basic human rights etc., I think a “Christian State” could work. Secular in nature, but mostly comprised of believers in order to guarantee the right to practice their faith without government intrusion, rather than a theocracy. That seemed to be a guiding principle of early North American governance, starting with the Mayflower Compact.

The Crusades strike me more as a product of their times than anything intrinsic to Christianity. They are best framed within the context of other sociopolitical realities of their era. How much of the infighting and loss of direction was due to the Christian faith, as opposed to how much went wrong in spite of their faith? It’s not like all were motivated by a higher calling. Many, perhaps most, seemed to care more about things like wealth and power. In this regard, not much has changed. Unfortunately, bullies jump on any excuse to bully, and weaker-willed people may become complicit. Those who took their faith to heart arguably made it through with cleaner consciences than those who didn’t, but we may never know the whole story. Unfortunately, their contributions are easily overshadowed for the ones committing atrocities. Would those committing atrocities in the name of Christianity behave any better if they didn’t live within a Christian state? I’m not inclined to think so. At least not if we look at other civilizations at the time. Not to excuse their destructive behavior (the Spanish Inquisition and attacking the Byzantine Empire were wrong on many levels) things like international war and political power struggles still happen regardless of professed faith.

It seems to me that the reason for USA’s separation of church and state has more to do with supporting the free practice of religion than to specifically avoid the mistakes made during the Crusades. To not be beholden to the Church of England, for example. Of course, the early forefathers and framers of the Constitution would have been well aware of European history, so the outcome of the Crusades were taken into consideration. I just don’t think they’re the strongest argument against Christian theocracy. The political realities had already changed by then, at least to the minds of theologians and Enlightenment thinkers.