gilgamesh mentioned in dead sea scrolls

[Ben Borg Again]

I found this interesting while reading "the books of Giants" from the dead sea scrolls. " book of giants" is a pre flood story..
These are two quotes from the scroll that contains the name of one of the giants, Gilgamesh


http://www.nazarene.net/enoch/4Q203.shtml



4Q531 Frag. 1 3[ . . . I am a] giant, and by the mighty strength of my arm and my own great strength 4[ . . . any]one mortal, and I have made war against them; but I am not [ . . . ] able to stand against them, for my opponents 6[ . . . ] reside in [Heav]en, and they dwell in the holy places. And not 7[ . . . they] are stronger than I. 8[ . . . ] of the wild beast has come, and the wild man they call [me]. 9[ . . . ] Then Ohya said to him, I have been forced to have a dream [ . . . ] the sleep of my eyes [vanished], to let me see a vision. Now I know that on [ . . . ] 11-12[ . . . ] Gilgamesh [ . . . ]





4Q530 Col. 2 1concerns the death of our souls [ . . . ] and all his comrades, [and Oh]ya told them what Gilgamesh said to him 2[ . . . ] and it was said [ . . . ] "concerning [ . . . ] the leader has cursed the potentates" 3and the giants were glad at his words. Then he turned and left [ . . . ]

 

[Battie]

Wow, that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

I'm wondering if Ohya is supposed to be Enkidu from the epic. The dream he describes sounds like Enkidu's dreams that warned he and Gilgamesh that one of them was to be killed.

I know that myths vary a lot from culture to culture, so this may not make a difference, but wasn't Gilgamesh supposed to have lived after the flood, not before? In the Sumerian myth he visits Utnapishtim, the only man to survive the flood and live forever, to learn the secret of eternal life.

 

[Sheseala]

If I recall correctly the nephilim were metioned before and after the flood, could be a similar sort of thing.

 

[Ben Borg Again]

whats interesting about the Gilgamesh reference in a dead sea scroll..
A few things off the top of my head. First of all the Old Testament Canon had lose standards back during the old days, many Jews consider extra biblical books as scripture more or less.

Book of Enoch, Book of Adam and Eve, Book of Jasher ( mentioned in the Joshua 13 I think)

The fact Hebrew culture ORIGINATES from Sumerian culture, and that they also mention GIlgamesh in context of a Flood Story... and that the Hebrew Quram included the Book of Giants in their Dead Sea Scroll Collection at least indicated that they placed value upon the Book of Giants, Since its part of the Enoch Books, which multiple copies existed with the Dead sea Scrolls.
indicates they considered Enoch scripture.


I dont understand how YEC's can be in total denial about the influence that Babylonian/ Sumerian mythology had on Genesis and the FLood Stories.

Think about it you YEC's- Genesis mentions PharoaH Ramses III, which means that Genesis could not have been written BEFORE Ramses family became Pharoahs, right? And check out what year Ramses was Pharoah!

the Gilgamesh reference in the DSS Book Of Giants only gives further INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION of the Sumerian origins of Hebrew mythology.


Still YEC's deny this obvious evidence, its totally pointless to debate YEC's, they have no desire to know Truth. Whats so ironic is accepting the non literal interpretation of Genesis, should in no way compromise a christians faith.

 

[Battie]

Still YEC's deny this obvious evidence, its totally pointless to debate YEC's, they have no desire to know Truth. Whats so ironic is accepting the non literal interpretation of Genesis, should in no way compromise a christians faith.

I agree. It doesn't need to compromising at all, and it really helps to know how these writings came to be. I'm very glad to be learning about it this semester.

Hebrew mythology, while very similar to that of other cultures, also presents a monotheistic God who is very, very different from the gods of other nations. The Hebrew writers weren't just making things up. The stories may be symbolic, but the truth of God is still there. We just have to remember that the ancient peoples did not think the way we do. Using the mythology of other cultures was the best way for them to express God in an understandable way.

It really shouldn't be at all threatening. I still believe in the truth behind the words, and God's creation and work is still every bit as amazing to me as it was when I still accepted YECism.

 

[Ben Borg Again]

I agree. It doesn't need to compromising at all, and it really helps to know how these writings came to be. I'm very glad to be learning about it this semester.

Hebrew mythology, while very similar to that of other cultures, also presents a monotheistic God who is very, very different from the gods of other nations. The Hebrew writers weren't just making things up. The stories may be symbolic, but the truth of God is still there. We just have to remember that the ancient peoples did not think the way we do. Using the mythology of other cultures was the best way for them to express God in an understandable way.

It really shouldn't be at all threatening. I still believe in the truth behind the words, and God's creation and work is still every bit as amazing to me as it was when I still accepted YECism.

right on, I wish I was as young as 19 years old when I had the mental capacity to differenciate between Evolution. and non belief in christianity. Good for you to be able to understand the difference, and not have it affect your faith. I always thought Lutherans denomination was cool, liberal and progressive, even though Martin Luther wanted to kill and destroy all Jews and paved the way for Hitlers acceptance in German Christian culture

 

[Battie]

right on, I wish I was as young as 19 years old when I had the mental capacity to differenciate between Evolution. and non belief in christianity. Good for you to be able to understand the difference, and not have it affect your faith. I always thought Lutherans denomination was cool, liberal and progressive, even though Martin Luther wanted to kill and destroy all Jews and paved the way for Hitlers acceptance in German Christian culture

Thanks.

I like the Lutheran church a lot, 'cause liturgies are cool. Most of its doctrines are pretty solid too.

I have never heard that about Martin Luther though, and I wouldn't have thought that of him. I'm going to look it up too, but if you could give me a source on that I'd appreciate it.

Edit: Yowch. Never mind. Looks like Luther had some issues...

I can't believe I've never heard this before. I still admire him for all he did for the church, but that kind of hate is a more than a little disturbing...

 

[SummaScriptura]

http://www.thebookofenoch.info/book_of_giants.html

Another explanation.

The "Epic of Gilgamesh" and "Book of Giants" have independent development.

One records a more true picture of the way things were and the the other a romanticised picture.

If Gilgamesh were Nephil (Genesis 6), he could have written a fictional account of his life in stone before the flood. The Epic of Gilgamesh could be seen as a "puff piece" then. The Book of Giants however, shows him as Nephil who knew he was to die in battle before the soon-to-come flood of Noah's day.

The way I see it, the stories have nothing at all to do with young earth creationism.

 

[sbvera13]

 

[AV1611VET]

The fact Hebrew culture ORIGINATES from Sumerian culture, and that they also mention GIlgamesh in context of a Flood Story...

Not hardly --- this "Gilgamesh" stuff came after the Flood, not before it.

The Hebrew culture originates from Shem, whereas Sumerian culture originates from Ham.

 

[dad]

I found this interesting while reading "the books of Giants" from the dead sea scrolls. " book of giants" is a pre flood story..
These are two quotes from the scroll that contains the name of one of the giants, Gilgamesh


http://www.nazarene.net/enoch/4Q203.shtml



4Q531 Frag. 1 3[ . . . I am a] giant, and by the mighty strength of my arm and my own great strength 4[ . . . any]one mortal, and I have made war against them; but I am not [ . . . ] able to stand against them, for my opponents 6[ . . . ] reside in [Heav]en, and they dwell in the holy places. And not 7[ . . . they] are stronger than I. 8[ . . . ] of the wild beast has come, and the wild man they call [me]. 9[ . . . ] Then Ohya said to him, I have been forced to have a dream [ . . . ] the sleep of my eyes [vanished], to let me see a vision. Now I know that on [ . . . ] 11-12[ . . . ] Gilgamesh [ . . . ]





4Q530 Col. 2 1concerns the death of our souls [ . . . ] and all his comrades, [and Oh]ya told them what Gilgamesh said to him 2[ . . . ] and it was said [ . . . ] "concerning [ . . . ] the leader has cursed the potentates" 3and the giants were glad at his words. Then he turned and left [ . . . ]

Why, did anyone think that there was no Gilgamesh? Are you fooled by the dating here, or what is supposed to be impressive??