Ghosts

[Nom De Guerre]

I'm not exactly certain if you're looking for examples of ghosts in particular which never leave, or just the evidence of spirits themselves.

Irregardless(yes, I use this word; big whoop, wanna fight about it?), I've had many encounters with spirits, one particular incident I think I'll mention happened quite a few yeas ago; a small girl had recently passed away nearby, and my heart was deeply saddened by this, so I prayed deeply to God to allow her home. After prayer, I left my room.

Shortly after I had left a younger sibling of mine wandered into my room, she actually knew the young girl from school, and she said she saw her in my room waving at her.

As for myself, when I was younger I and my brother used to share a room and one night we were laying in bed about to sleep. Dad was makin' his way into the bathroom and our bedroom door was open so we both saw him go there, on his way to the bathroom we both saw a wolf try to bite our Dad before he went into the bathroom. I thought I was dreaming it all and simply asked my brother,"did you see that?" not mentioning what I had witnessed. He replied, "that wolf almost got Dad"

 

[Inkachu]

The answer to this question lies in the Old Testament...both in the law and prophets. Ezekiel reveals part of the answer, as does Numbers chapter 19.

One can make a guess based only on the NT... or you can read the law and prophets to get the broader picture.

Any reason you didn't feel like giving some specific Scriptures? I've read the law and the prophets, but it would be nice if you could point me to where you're thinking of. You can PM me so we don't derail the thread.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

I think he may be referring to this in Numbers 19:

13Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

14This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days.

15And every open vessel, which hath no covering bound upon it, is unclean.

16And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.

17And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:

18And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:

19And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.

20But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.

21And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.

22And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.



the Perpetual statute would be something similar to Purgatory I'm sure.

 

[Stravinsk]

Any reason you didn't feel like giving some specific Scriptures? I've read the law and the prophets, but it would be nice if you could point me to where you're thinking of. You can PM me so we don't derail the thread.

Because it was late and I was tired and otherwise not operating at full capacity. Nick quoted the relevant Numbers verses. Do you see any relevance to the items used in the passage and Jesus Christ? The cedar wood, the scarlet wool, the unblemished red heifer slaughtered *outside the camp*, the priest? What purpose does "the 3rd day" and "the 7th day" serve in the passages? Why does the ritual of purification include these times?

Ask yourself this. All through Christ's ministry people are touching Him and being healed. On the day of His resurrection, the first thing He says to Mary is "touch me not". Could there be a significant reason for that? I know the NIV says "do not hold on to me" - but the same Greek work for touch is used here as it is elsewhere in the NT.

Ezekiel:

Who is the Prince in Chapter 44? Vrs 2 says it is the LORD Himself. What is the significance of the Prince's east facing door, and the "eating of bread before the LORD"? (The LORD eats bread before Himself?) The Prince is obviously Christ.

Chapter 46 - again the Prince and door are mentioned...why open and shut certain times only? What relevance do you think this might have to the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?




Is there anywhere in Prophetic Scripture or law that even comes close to indicating Christ Jesus is ascended or enters Heaven, or the Holy Temple, on the 6th day of the week? On a Friday? Or even on the 8th day - a Sunday? There isn't to my knowledge.


Did you watch the videos, btw? I don't agree with everything said in them (such as his definition of "high Sabbath") - but the verses that deal with the dead are relevant to this thread.

 

[MacFall]

I believe that people's spirits may inhabit the earth after their deaths. But God controls all that, so I'm pretty sure it happens only with his permission. There may also be some sort of "psychic imprint" left behind by people, but if so I believe it would be a natural phenomenon, albeit one not yet explainable by the science we now have.

 

[Squeakers]

Absolutely not.

I think it's man-made superstition and nothing more.

I do believe that we are a lot more in tune with the spiritual world than we might think sometimes, and some things that are actually spiritual activity (angels, demons) are interpreted as "ghost" activity.

This.

 

[BranwenUerchLlyr]

I believe that people's spirits may inhabit the earth after their deaths. But God controls all that, so I'm pretty sure it happens only with his permission. There may also be some sort of "psychic imprint" left behind by people, but if so I believe it would be a natural phenomenon, albeit one not yet explainable by the science we now have.

If it exists, it may not yet be explainable by science, but it should have no problem being detected and observed by scientific means--this work precedes explanation. All such endeavors have failed, despite the frequency of elaborate claims in which the phenomenon is said to occur.

One thing science has found evidence for is the extent of human illusion and delusion. Cognitive and perceptual illusions exist, happen often, and can convince people to believe in a wide range of phenomenon that simply did not occur.

 

[MacFall]

One thing science has found evidence for is the extent of human illusion and delusion. Cognitive and perceptual illusions exist, happen often, and can convince people to believe in a wide range of phenomenon that simply did not occur.

I'm willing to admit that my own senses are fallible. But when people tell me that experiences I have shared with others can only be explained "scientifically" with words like "delusion" and "hallucination" - you know, things like God's presence and miracles and prophetic visions - I usually just call them pompous jerks and end the conversation. We necessarily start from two opposing premises: mine being that it is fine for people to believe in things that have not been "scientifically proven", and theirs that I am a lunatic for having that belief. There's no point to any further discussion on the matter.

 

[BranwenUerchLlyr]

I'm willing to admit that my own senses are fallible. But when people tell me that experiences I have shared with others can only be explained "scientifically" with words like "delusion" and "hallucination" - you know, things like God's presence and miracles and prophetic visions - I usually just call them pompous jerks and end the conversation. We necessarily start from two opposing premises: mine being that it is fine for people to believe in things that have not been "scientifically proven", and theirs that I am a lunatic for having that belief. There's no point to any further discussion on the matter.

It gets quite a bit more complicated when discussing experiences involving religious themes and "I saw a flash of light and it looked like a human, I think it was a ghost." There is absolutely a fundamental difference between the two--we can definitely agree on that. My response was concerning experiences that fall under the latter category, just to clarify.

 

[septemberskies]

I've seen ghosts/spirits a couple of times... I'll leave it at that

 

[Ayersy]

If it exists, it may not yet be explainable by science, but it should have no problem being detected and observed by scientific means--this work precedes explanation. All such endeavors have failed, despite the frequency of elaborate claims in which the phenomenon is said to occur.

One thing science has found evidence for is the extent of human illusion and delusion. Cognitive and perceptual illusions exist, happen often, and can convince people to believe in a wide range of phenomenon that simply did not occur.

Yeah, I'm thinking along the same lines as this.

It always seems funny to me how people who have "seen" ghosts, always seem to be on their own, at night, in the dark. Seems to fit in very well with famous horror media if you ask me.

Why can't the ghosts simply pop into view in front of a large group of people, during the day?

There's also the obvious fact that people lie.

 

[Marycita]

Do you believe spirits of the dead sometimes stick around after people have died?

Nope

What do you think of ghosts and this sort of thing in general?

I don't

 

[MacFall]

It always seems funny to me how people who have "seen" ghosts, always seem to be on their own, at night, in the dark. Seems to fit in very well with famous horror media if you ask me.

Why can't the ghosts simply pop into view in front of a large group of people, during the day?

Probably because people are more attuned to other people when other people are present, and not everyone is spiritually attuned in the first place. Few are, in fact. But I have seen things that I can only explain as "spiritual" in the presence of other people. You can explain it as mass-delusion or confirmation bias or even falsehood if you like, but I know what I know.

 

[Flashlight]

I was never convinced and am still not. One night at the hospital we had an elderly lady that was dying. The doors opened, you need a chip in your badge to open them, and no one came in. There was nothing on camera in the doorway. A minute later this lady was talking to her husband that had died several years earlier. It seemed that it was him that came through the doors. In about 15 minutes she died. It could be nothing but it does make me open my mind a bit.

 

[david77123]

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.
1 Samuel 28

In the bible, here is one example of ghosts in the bible.

 

[BranwenUerchLlyr]

Probably because people are more attuned to other people when other people are present, and not everyone is spiritually attuned in the first place. Few are, in fact. But I have seen things that I can only explain as "spiritual" in the presence of other people. You can explain it as mass-delusion or confirmation bias or even falsehood if you like, but I know what I know.

In that case, I would ask (and its an honest question):
Why won't these phenomenon occur in instances where they can be analyzed with scientific precision? What have they got against demonstrating their existence?

I say scientific specifically because many claim they've recorded a spirit on a static-y cassette tape or in a negative of an old photograph. Are these fakes or illusions while only non-recorded hauntings are real?

I don't doubt your experience of these things and I would never say that you are lying about them. I do take your attributions and explanations of those phenomenon with a dose of healthy skepticism. This skepticism is absolutely due considering the vast amount of evidence for illusion of exactly this sort and the goose-egg amount for the alternative. Is this perspective something you can at least appreciate or is anything other than agreement going to be intrinsically offensive?

 

[MacFall]

I can respect that very well, although if I'm wrong it means that I'm either lying or crazy, and I could understand how someone can take offense at that.

I think that we've been unable to measure supernatural phenomena with scientific instruments because science observes only the natural. But I think that human senses were made able to receive the supernatural as well as the natural, and that makes us more sensitive in some ways than any instrument we could ourselves create.