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Getting spiritually Screwtaped Over – by C.S. Lewis

2PhiloVoid

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I dunno, but this sounds like word games. I had the impression that you opened this thread for meaningful discussion, but you're just playing around with this stuff now. If you want good discussion, then make your arguments clear. You said this confusing thing about bowing to Jesus but not being on his side and now you're talking about your use of the word "merely" somehow clearing it all up.
Yes, I'm open to talking about the content of the OP, but I'm not open to other Christians criticizing me for something as trivial as a badly articulated sentence that needed the additional word "merely" to be added to it so as to convey what I meant to originally convey.

Does this make sense?

Now, I do stick to my original statement, however, in that I think Pilate asked a legitimate question, however philosophically uninformed it was. And I fully realize he was uninformed.

I'll address the rest of what you've written later.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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We might add to Screwtapes advice to Wormwood, "Make them feel like an exploration of truth is actually a personal attack; make them feel like they're being landed into; make them feel like they're being taken to task, and in the swirling hurt feelings resulting from these thoughts, the truth will remain unexplored. This worked well enough in Jesus' day when we convinced the religious authorities, (in a rather embarrassingly whiny attempt, I may proudly note), to lament to Jesus, 'teacher, thus saying thou also accuse us.' Heh, the fools genuinely believed their hurt feelings would be enough to convince Jesus that he should stop correcting their faults and truth be told, with most people this tactic works, but not with Jesus. Harrumph! One might get the impression that he practically enjoyed belittling people (the sneaky trickster!), referring to one woman as a dog, to others as goats and pigs, and even to one of his most trusted followers as Satan himself! (Baghhh! The nerve of that man, using our father's name as some kind of truthful rebuke)! Closer inspection reveals that it was not enjoyment which inspired these insults (what a waste), but rather an insidious attempt to shock people out of the banal, insipid loyalty to social respectability which we've so carefully lulled them into over the centuries. Just as we have them stupidly stumbling through the miasma of everyone being nice and polite and caring for each others feelings, along he comes with some brutish insult snapping them out of it! It is our good fortune that this rarely works, though, due to our efforts to strengthen their pride. And this is where the enemy, in his effort to give these repugnant creatures free will, as left us a good deal of wiggle room. It doesn't take much effort at all to convince a human that he's been treated unfairly. A twisting of his innate, god-given sense of justice, (that why should he, as the sole arbiter of justice from his own perspective, not be the ultimate beneficiary of such justice?), will as surely keep him from recognition of truth about himself as the deepest, darkest prison of hell.

I think I can agree with much that you've stated here, and these are things to think about. Screwtape wants to play upon sentimentalities related to personal preference that are, ideological, in-congruent with God's Will. So, yeah. Those are some good points, John.
 
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John Helpher

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So, yeah. Those are some good points, John.

Thanks, 2PV. I tend to have strong opinions and I express them in what I believe to be a confident and right way. I would ask that you not focus on the seemingly rough way that I express my point of view, but rather on whether or not the point of view is right or wrong regarding the substance of it. I believe this is consistent with what Lewis communicated by having screwtape advice Wormwood of that very thing, i.e. to keep his patient away from thoughts of right or wrong and instead thoughts about how the argument was made or what philosophical maundering could be had from them.

criticizing me for something as trivial as a badly articulated sentence that needed the additional word "merely" to be added to it so as to convey what I meant to originally convey.

Does this make sense?

No, it still does not make sense. I had not realized that you believed the confusion was cleared up by adding the word merely. It actually makes the situation even more confusing as one wonders what "merely on Jesus' side" means? The insertion of merely seems to make being on Jesus' side even more of a rather useless place to be. "I'm not merely on Jesus side, but I bow to him". I guess your intention is to make a kind of magnificent declaration of your feelings for Jesus? If so, I understand the feeling. It's a bit like Peter saying to Jesus, "It shall not be so for you, Lord!" when Jesus talked about being killed. Peter loved Jesus and he thought his declaration would demonstrate that love, but Jesus knew better. Peter had let his feelings cloud his judgment and he ended up saying something contrary to Jesus' message. I'm guessing something similar happened with your sentiment about not merely being on Jesus' side.

I do not mean for this to come across as an insult to you, but rather my strong response is meant to communicate just how important it really is to be on Jesus' side. Over and over again Jesus talked about a need to listen carefully to his teachings and obey them in a way which was very much akin to taking sides. "If you are not for me, you are against me".

This message becomes very confused when people start making up convenient doctrines regarding how they really can be loyal to Jesus without any need to obey him. They talk about loving Jesus in their heart, while they give all their time, skills, and resources to working for money, or to their relationships, or to their reputation.

If we really do love Jesus then we also need to make it clear to any other would-be follower that obedience to Jesus (i.e. being on his side) is the #1 job we have as servants.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thanks, 2PV. I tend to have strong opinions and I express them in what I believe to be a confident and right way. I would ask that you not focus on the seemingly rough way that I express my point of view, but rather on whether or not the point of view is right or wrong regarding the substance of it. I believe this is consistent with what Lewis communicated by having screwtape advice Wormwood of that very thing, i.e. to keep his patient away from thoughts of right or wrong and instead thoughts about how the argument was made or what philosophical maundering could be had from them.
Alright. I appreciate the 'heads-up' about you're having strong opinions and confidence in your views. And for what it's worth, I'd rather see a Christian who is strongly confident in the Lord and in his/her faith than the opposite. I'm rather firm in my positions as well, but much of the time I'll gladly listen to my brethren who wish to let me know 'how' they see the world and how they understand our common faith in Jesus Christ.

I think I see the point you're trying to make about how Lewis seems to think [through Screwtape in Chapter 1 of the Screwtape Letters] that the diabolical plot is to keep people away from thoughts of right or wrong, away from deeper epistemological considerations that could potentially pivot or even tip an entire viewpoint about Christianity. So, I think I can agree with you on this, generally speaking.

No, it still does not make sense. I had not realized that you believed the confusion was cleared up by adding the word merely. It actually makes the situation even more confusing as one wonders what "merely on Jesus' side" means? The insertion of merely seems to make being on Jesus' side even more of a rather useless place to be. "I'm not merely on Jesus side, but I bow to him". I guess your intention is to make a kind of magnificent declaration of your feelings for Jesus?
Essentially, yes! Again, I apologize for the confusion caused by my overly quick typing habits ... it happens to me more than I'd like. So, if and when you and I converse, feel free to ask for any hermeneutical clarification that may be needed since I make typos and even mess up syntax here and there. (One of the linguistic ravages of being human, I guess).

If so, I understand the feeling. It's a bit like Peter saying to Jesus, "It shall not be so for you, Lord!" when Jesus talked about being killed. Peter loved Jesus and he thought his declaration would demonstrate that love, but Jesus knew better. Peter had let his feelings cloud his judgment and he ended up saying something contrary to Jesus' message. I'm guessing something similar happened with your sentiment about not merely being on Jesus' side.
That could be the case; but in this instance, being that I have a degree in Philosophy, I do see some cogency in what Pilate 'thought' he was saying to Jesus in addressing Jesus with his rhetorical question about 'truth.' And, as a wanna-be philosopher, I do 'side' with Pilate in asking the same question. It's just that I also see and understand Jesus' side of the dialogue: He personfies the Fullness of Reality and is the expression of God the Father in the world, and the Alpha and the Omege. Jesus spoke a human level truth by asserting that He is THE Truth.

I do not mean for this to come across as an insult to you, but rather my strong response is meant to communicate just how important it really is to be on Jesus' side. Over and over again Jesus talked about a need to listen carefully to his teachings and obey them in a way which was very much akin to taking sides. "If you are not for me, you are against me".
Oh yes, I quite understand what you mean in all of that, John. Don't worry. I have nothing to press against that point since I too am a Christian.

This message becomes very confused when people start making up convenient doctrines regarding how they really can be loyal to Jesus without any need to obey him. They talk about loving Jesus in their heart, while they give all their time, skills, and resources to working for money, or to their relationships, or to their reputation.
I understand; but people also shouldn't short-circuit more expansive levels of hermeneutical insight as they engage the content and the history of the Bible, wouldn't you say?

If we really do love Jesus then we also need to make it clear to any other would-be follower that obedience to Jesus (i.e. being on his side) is the #1 job we have as servants.
Most definitely. I agree. But, I wouldn't want to make it sound like I also think that obedience to Jesus has to perfectly conform to certain denominational predilections about dogma or doctrine which some Christians push upon fellow Christians who reside within other denominations.
 
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If you really believed that you wouldn't feel any need to be here, now, trying to maintain this idea. :)

Wow, what an amazing comeback that no one has ever come up with before! You're right, I should just leave Christians alone. After all, they aren't hurting anyone. It's not like there was a worldwide conspiracy to cover up the rape of thousands of children or anything.
 
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John Helpher

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You're right, I should just leave Christians alone.

Yeah, if you're in to temper tantrums I can see how that'd be tempting. On the other hand, you could just change the way you reason through the issues to conform with a more rational approach. I mean, it's not like I was trying to be snide (though I recognize you've taken it that way). It's just that your comment really was irrational. Look at it again:

Why does belief or faith need to be maintained? True things tend to handle themselves..

If you really believed your comments to be true, then you wouldn't need to "maintain" it by asking us to recognize it as something worth hearing on a public forum; as a "true thing" it would just handle itself. In other words, if what you're saying really is true, why are you only applying it to Christians and not to yourself? Could it be that you don't really believe what you're saying is true, but rather that you see it as some kind of convenient sophistry to somehow shame Christians for sharing their faith, with the implication being that they are insecure for doing so?

With you being a skeptic and all, that seems to be the more likely case.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yeah, if you're in to temper tantrums I can see how that'd be tempting. On the other hand, you could just change the way you reason through the issues to conform with a more rational approach. I mean, it's not like I was trying to be snide (though I recognize you've taken it that way). It's just that your comment really was irrational. Look at it again:



If you really believed your comments to be true, then you wouldn't need to "maintain" it by asking us to recognize it as something worth hearing on a public forum; as a "true thing" it would just handle itself. In other words, if what you're saying really is true, why are you only applying it to Christians and not to yourself? Could it be that you don't really believe what you're saying is true, but rather that you see it as some kind of convenient sophistry to somehow shame Christians for sharing their faith, with the implication being that they are insecure for doing so?

With you being a skeptic and all, that seems to be the more likely case.

... y'know, I just realized something. That sure is a cute kitten in your avatar! ^_^
 
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Yeah, if you're in to temper tantrums I can see how that'd be tempting. On the other hand, you could just change the way you reason through the issues to conform with a more rational approach. I mean, it's not like I was trying to be snide (though I recognize you've taken it that way).

I don't see how it wasn't meant that way.

It's just that your comment really was irrational. Look at it again:



If you really believed your comments to be true, then you wouldn't need to "maintain" it by asking us to recognize it as something worth hearing on a public forum; as a "true thing" it would just handle itself.

You need to sharpen your inference skills.

I don't need to maintain my belief in the existence of the sun because it "takes care of itself."

Your belief in God doesn't "take care of itself." You need to "maintain" that belief.

In other words, if what you're saying really is true, why are you only applying it to Christians and not to yourself?

I am applying it to myself. What is it that you think I "maintain" a belief in?

Could it be that you don't really believe what you're saying is true, but rather that you see it as some kind of convenient sophistry to somehow shame Christians for sharing their faith, with the implication being that they are insecure for doing so?

Nope.

With you being a skeptic and all, that seems to be the more likely case.

Why?
 
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