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Geologic Proof of an old earth creation.

Daniel Martinovich

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So i see what your saying, that if the rise of the plateau happened after everything was deposited. There would be no prehistoric canyons.

How it rose, and without the typically corresponding “damage” to the neatly laid sediment layers is a mystery to science. Lots of theories and pronouncements by the tabloid science media that claims some paper has figured it out but nothing definitive. And they never will because they are ignoring the obvious that the whole region was carved out by receding flood waters while still soft. They are focusing on one canyon when there are thousands of canyons coming off that plateau. Giant canyons. Just not as big as the Grand one. Canyons with very little debri in them comparatively speaking to the amount of debri washed away and deposited in basins. There is no scientific known phenomena for a whole region of over a hundred thousand square miles to wash away its borders as evidenced by thousands of giant canyons and leftover mesa’s than flood waters draining off it. Its the elephant in the room. Erosion from rain and streams simply doesn't cut it. Nor does the idea of the massive rise of the plateau without lots subsequent uplifted damage to the crust apart from a phenomena the official narrative can’t account for. A world wide flood laying multiple layers of sediment accompanied by a rise in the “bedrock” beneath. Then those waters draining, creating what we now see. Especially when the bedrock down below at the bottom of the canyon underneath all the sediment is uplifted.

When i say government scientists. I mean the official government narrative. Exactly the way you see the Covid pandemic being handled.

yes i know geologists don’t date rocks. Cause you cant. All dating methods rely on assumptions and the entire official narrative revolves around circular reasoning between the different branches. Again. Ignoring the elephant in the room. Like how in the heck did a coal field made of trees get buried under a mile of sediment layers? All over the place. No we’ll focus all our studies about coal coming from peat bogs. Lol.
 
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Job 33:6

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No, it's not a "mystery to science", it's called the laramide orogeny and it's known to have occurred because we have thrust faults all up and down the rocky mountains dipping to the west and thrusted to the east.

Feel free to leave the science to us, thank you.

The rock layers out there aren't [neatly] laid at all, you're just not familiar with how to read geologic maps. You likely haven't even looked at geologic maps of the region.
 
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Job 33:6

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Just because you don't know what thrust faults are, or just because you don't know how to identify them on a map, doesn't mean that we don't know what they are or how to identify them.

Evidence of the laramide orogeny which rests superpositionally equivalent to the uplifted rocks of the grand canyon, are utterly littered with thrust faults due to tectonic uplift. Meaning that we know how, when, where, and in what way those layers and that canyon came to be. It's quite obvious actually. And we call it, the laramide orogeny. Evidence for this orogeny is as clear as day. It's as obvious to us as the sun is hot. It's not even remotely a mystery in the slightest.

You can baselessly claim we don't know if you want. But I would just recommend you leave the science to the scientists. Thank you.

And it's no wonder that you never get anywhere in discussions with geologists, because you seem to have a personal conviction that you know more about geology than we do. I could go up to a neurosurgeon and If I held the belief that I knew more about brain surgery than he does, I could easily argue all day with him. But that's just not how the real world works. You could argue all you want that you know more than the physicists and chemist's in the lab or geologists in the field, but quite frankly, nobody is going to take such a position seriously except perhaps you yourself.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I live there.
Yes Sedimentary layers are “laid” there.
Glad you know all about the uplift of the region. I guess all those articles and researchers who’s papers are pop up with a simple search of the Colorado plateau elevation and disagree with one another are glad your here to settle the science. At least some of them, even the usgs are saying that is far from settled are being honest about it.

But be happy at least that you won my debate about a lack of prehistoric canyons buried in the region. At least in the lower half of the sediment layers laid on top of the bedrock layers.

Leave “science” to the experts? I think the country is learning that lesson the hard way with Covid.
 
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Job 33:6

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And in case anyone was confused about the English word "laid":
layed / laid | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University

And the USGS firmly backs the existence/history of the laramide orogeny and it's role in the formation of the grand canyon. And it's doubtful that anyone could ever provide a source/statement or publication from USGS stating otherwise. And of course I know this because I know and have worked with many USGS geologists over the years. Meanwhile we could easily find literally hundreds of publications on the laramide orogeny from the geological society of america, including a handful from USGS supporting it as history, quite easily. So good luck providing evidence otherwise.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Good point C4U.
The thing is this. The sea floor is not billions of years old. The Atlantic ocean is less than 170 million years old and was formed by the spreading of the ocean floor. I am sure we all know that very long ago, Africa and North America were connected and only started to break apart 168 million years ago. Essentially the oldest parts of the Oceans are near the continental coasts, and the youngest part is at the center when the spread is occurring.


 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I was just having a discussion with someone about the coal fields, some made of forests buried by sediment up to two miles deep. The subject turned to the recent news of tropical forest buried in Antarctica. His immediate explanation was the moving continents and plate tectonics. My answer which ended the conversation with a laughing emoji from him was: So your basically saying something like the Amazon drifted down to Antarctica over say a billion years and remained a tropical forest over that billion years as it drifted away from the equator to the poles then got buried by ice?

since that is a physical environmental impossibility i shared that the Bible said the world was completely different before the flood. It didn’t rain on the earth. Although that doesn’t supply all the answers. It sure gives one basis for some scientific conjecture of how a tropical forest could get buried in the Antarctic. Well, after posting this i just Googled the subject. Before i just heard it on the tabloid science news. They made it sound like the forest was buried by ice. Nope. Buried and fossilized by sediment in Antarctica, which once more brings us back to Noah’s flood.
 
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Job 33:6

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It sounds rude of them to laugh at your post. But I can help with the next step in understanding the theory of plate tectonics.

Did the article describe the many other sources of deposition beyond floods? That would be the next question in line to ask.

Here's a nice video on how much of Earth's deposition occurs, although there are multiple avenues:


So you can take the information in the video above, then pair it with the following video for an understanding of how geologists look at the earth:


So next you can take your thoughts on what a global flood deposits would look like, and what these videos have described, then look at the deposits over those antarctic forests, and see which view aligns more with geology.

If we lookup the geology of Antarctica, here is one of many papers we can find:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291262183_Antarctica's_glacio-eustatic_signature_in_the_Aptian_and_late_Miocene-Holocene_Implications_for_what_drives_sequence_stratigraphy/figures?lo=1

See figures 2 and 6 for transgressive and regressive sequences.

We call this "sequence stratigraphy". Here is a long yet well detailed explanation of it:
Stratigraphic Tools: Basic Sequence Stratigraphy – Historical Geology

And so, in summary, much of the deposition we observe in the rock record comes from oceanic trans and regressive deposition, ie or in lay terms, sea level change. But you also have major deposition observed in things like clastic wedges, prehistoric subsurface basins and aluvial fans. Oftentimes conglomerates and thick sedimentary deposits accompany structural deformation of orogenic events (mountains building up and eroding to fill valleys below). Etc.

I'd be happy to answer other questions if there are any in your mind. Though these are some of the basics for you.

The parasequence figures toward the end of the research article highlight significant differences between geology vs the typical young earth perception of earth. I'd recommend reading through it.

In all my years discussing geology with YECs, Ive found that at least 9/10 never follow up on my responses or at some point or another simply disappear from the discussion. I wonder if this will be one of those discussions.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Without reading your references right now because i have to go. I don’t like it when the sciences ignore the elephant in the room and focus their attention on things designed to keep peoples attention off that elephant that is stomping around and trumpeting in that room. That elephant is the world wide sediment layers that in some places could be 5 miles deep laid down by currents of a world wide flood. Everyone knows there are localized floods and deposits. Loom, volcanic, meteorite, river born sediments and such. That can all be seen and the local effects are evident. But there is nothing local or oceanic that can deposit what we see worldwide that buried everything that existed that can now be discovered under those sediment layers. (Which by the way gave mankind a future almost unlimited energy source.)
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Had time to look at the first simple video. If one wants to not ignore the elephant in the room they can simply point out that all of that could have occurred catastrophically during and in the immediate aftermath of a flood. Including the continental drift that put the continents where they are today. Oceanic sediments don’t bury forests and animals worldwide. The reason the are multiple layers of sediment is because one current being pushed out by another will drop sediment as it slows and reverses on its way out.
 
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Job 33:6

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Oceanic or flood related deposits /sediments don't actually span the globe. On every continent you will find exposure of terrestrial rocks that were not deposited in aqueous environments. And I'll explain how we know this below, And not only will I explain how we know of terrestrial strata that is in fact terrestrial strata, but I'm going to explain the opposite as well of how we know flood waters aren't sufficient to explain what we see from a logical stance.

Are you familiar with the principal of superposition?

I'm going to explain some things to you, I would just ask that you please read it thoroughly and think about it for a little bit. And if you have questions about what I'm saying, please ask.

And if there's anything about what I'm saying that you don't understand, then we won't be able to make progress, so please ask questions.
 
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Job 33:6

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Oceanic sediments don't actually span the globe. Sorry to break it to you.

Are you familiar with the principal of superposition?

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Upper_Cretaceous_James_Ross_Island_Antarctica

Here's a nice article on some of the geology of Antarctica, and what we actually see are exposure of terrestrial rocks in various areas, as evidenced by things like trackways and rootlet complexes and other forms of ichnofossils, And also we see the presence of paleosols, which, in soil sciences include things like the O Horizon, A B, and C horizons as well.

Are you familiar with sedimentary soil horizons?

This is very important to understand, so that you can see why these aren't flood deposits, they're very different, they are terrestrial paleosols. And just to make it logically obvious, they have animal track ways on them, meaning that they are in fact dry ground that animals walked across. Ichnofossils throughout the geologic record contain things like nests and complex root networks and complex burrow networks, and large vertebrate burrows, and feeding trace marks from animals that are eating such as birds pecking at plants along the ground etc. In combination with tree rootlets and mud cracks and paleosols, We can tell the difference between strata that was once terrestrial versus strata that is from a flood.

And this is very important to understand. You have to be able to differentiate between marine strata and terrestrial strata if you want to understand earth history.

And so to go back to my original post, in some instances we do have large spans of space covered by oceanic trans and regressive sequences as described in my prior post. But this is a long shot from saying that the Earth is covered by flood deposits. Just as we have giant continental shelves with sub water deposition accumulation that span thousands of miles around the United states, but this is not the same as saying that the entire United States is underwater.

And the easiest way to understand this concept is to look at actual geologic maps so that you can see what is or is not present.

I'd recommend downloading the RockD app, it's free and can show you the geology of your area.

If someone tells you that the Earth is covered by flood deposits, I would simply say that there is no geologic map in existence that would ever suggests such a thing. It's just a baseless claim. As evidenced by the article above that includes maps noting things like ichno fossils, paleosols, rootlets and more that demonstrate a terrestrial origin, not marine or flood related.

And there's no elephant in the room, it's just a matter of being familiar with geologic maps.

So here's another issue with the idea of global flood deposits accounting for the strategic record, And in particular this Antarctic Forest that you are describing:

So we can imagine all precambrian strata, then overlayed by Cambrian, then overlayed by ordovician, then by Silurian, then by Devonian strata. Then you have this forest. And then eventually you get to things like the Permian and the Mesozoic and Cenozoic etc.

If a forest grew in the carboniferous, How could that be possible if the flood were responsible for early Paleozoic and late and post Paleozoic strata (both before and after the carboniferous)?

And actually I believe these forests that you're describing are mesozoic, which is even worse but I'm going to go with carboniferous because you mentioned coal seams.

It would be like making a sandwich where you have it piece of bread on the bottom and then you have your meat patty, and then your cheese on top of that and then lettuce on top of that, And then tomato on top of that and then bread at the very top. But right in between the meat and the cheese you have evidence of time passing through the growth of some kind of flower on the meat patty.

Well if you put the sandwich together in the matter of 5 minutes, how in the world would a flower grow on the meat patty? How would it have time to grow, and wouldn't the cheese smother the flower and prevent it from getting sunlight?

The same question could be asked in geology, if you have thousands and thousands of feet of stratigraphy below the forest and thousands and thousands above, If all of it were allegedly deposited by some epic flood that spanned the entire planet, why would there be a forest right in the middle of this stratigraphic "sandwich"? Did the tree seeds just land somewhere on a random island and then the entire forest grew and then decades later after the forest grew, massive waters returned to covered them again and somehow buried it all without destroying them? How would that make any sense? Like the flood went away then just randomly came back decades later to finish the job via deposition of the entire Mesozoic and Cenozoic eras.

But it actually gets worse when you realize that things like rootlet structures and ichnofossil track ways, and paleosols, and things of the like are actually found in every single geologic period throughout all of earth history. We can find evidence of buried forests throughout every single period of time. Suggesting that throughout all of Earth history, there on earth were always places that were dry where life was growing forests and walking around and living.

And this doesn't really make sense in a young earth where a flood is responsible for all stratigraphy because it runs contrary to the idea of a flood rendering all life extinct.

It would be like having evidence of a flower growing in between every single layer of your sandwich. How slowly would you have to make a sandwich in order for a flower to grow in between the bun and the meat and the meat and the cheese and the cheese and the lettuce and the lettuce and tomato and the tomato and the overlying bread?

But that's what we see in geology, just on a much much bigger scale where instead of a flower it's entire forests and trackways of animals and burrows and evidence of predation and nests with eggs and expansive burrow networks by slow moving mega sloths and things of the like that would take long expanses of time. Yet these things can be found in every period of stratigraphy, in combination with things like soil A, B, and C horizons as paleosols.

But it gets even worse when we actually start looking at some of the structural features as well. It gets really really ugly for flood advocates the more we actually discuss the topic and the more we dive in. For AiG, less detail is better. But for geologists, more detail is better. So let's see how deep we can go.

Things like slickenlines and fault breccias and evidence that deposition is a product of orogensis.

Imagine taking a piece of chalk and rubbing it on the sidewalk outside and it makes a streak. Now this activity can only be done if the chalk is a solid mass and the sidewalk is a solid mass, otherwise particles would roll and you wouldn't have a streak.

Well in geology, throughout the rock record we have evidence of hard bodies of rocks scraping past one another. Suggesting that these rocks were lithified and underwent brittle deformation prior to the deposition of undeformed overlying sediment. This is evidenced in things called angular uncomformities such as Hutton's Siccar Point (Google it).

If you understand what I'm saying here, it's a complete nightmare for young earthers. But most of them aren't really familiar with geology enough to understand what I'm saying, unfortunately.

Meaning that not only are there hypothetical forest growing right in the middle of a global flood, but there's also evidence of dense solid rock right in the middle of this flood too. Which is problematic if this dense rock was allegedly also deposited as soft sediment by a flood. It simply doesn't make any sense because how could a flood deposit hardstone with forests on it?

Reminds me of the fossil grove site in Glasgow (Google images of it).
 
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Job 33:6

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Also, here's another thing that is an issue for the flood proposal.

So let's say that this forest was buried by flood deposits and these layers being carboniferous in age. This is just hypothetical and I'm just doing it to make an example of how it doesn't make sense.

If a person were to make this conclusion it would actually be defeating for flood proponents because they would have no explanation for how a forest grew in the carboniferous if the flood allegedly accounted for all pre-carboniferous strata including Devonian, ordovician, silurian etc strata.

Because then someone would have to wonder how an entire forest grew in the middle of a flood under what would presumably be kilometers of water.

Logically the forest would have to predate the flood, but that can't be true because then what would account for the multiple eras of strata below or deeper than the forest?

The only true elephant in the room is people's limited understanding of superposition in this case in addition to geologic maps.
 
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Job 33:6

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And one other consideration. Someone might say, well oceanic trans and regressive sequences, that may account for large marine sequences across thousands of miles, but how could an ocean bury a forest?

And to understand this question, you have to look at the actual lithology of the formation in question. It goes back to being able to read the rocks.

Peat, coal, anthracite or bituminous coals, lignite etc. these rocks types are packed with carbonaceous material. Things like plant material, dead organics, swampy, decaying leaves.

When we observe swamps in today's time, what do we see? Environments close to sea level. Rapid deposition and burial of an environment, including the rapid burial of trees, such is the case of the everglades of Florida where everytime a hurricane passed through, additional deposition occurs and the environment is slowly buried. Not to mention sea level rise also encroaching on the state as it rests near sea level. Destined to eventually be buried by an oceanic transgressive sequence, over what will take many thousands, perhaps a few tens of thousand years.

When we talk about large scale expansive formations, these tend not to be carbonaceous, but rather they tend to be your shallow marine, continental shelf shales, or your deeper marine limestones and dolomite. Beaches of course being sandstones as well. Each rock type reflecting what it historically was in the past.

What do these environments do? As the prior video notes, geography changes laterally and stratigraphy changes vertically. As sea level rises and the seas transgress, sandstones deposit deeper inland, followed by shales and limestones as shallow and deep marine environments further move inland. The opposite occurs with regressions as sea level falls.

These environments are not static. They're active. Sea level rise and fall can result in deposition that spans thousands of square miles.

All the while, they can be traced over time. We can watch them, via superposition, as they change over time. We can also watch orogenic processes occur over time. Mountain chains can be observed moving over time, if you follow the stratigraphy. Terrestrial strata observed in one location in the ordovician, then in the silurian that terrestrial strata has moved geographically, and then by the Devonian it has moved further. And we can watch these environments change over time with high precision.

We even understand the nature of how rocks break and fold under the motion of orogenic processes. As mountain chains push inland, sedimentary rocks fracture and low angles, roughly 30 degrees, as horizontal pressure movies solid rock overtop of and into other bodies of rock.

High degree angle faults near rift zones. These areas contain nothing that would suggest a flood related origin. And yet the pillow basalts of ophiolites of the himilayas match precisely what we see along rift zones today.

I could go on and on about the depth of our awareness of geology. Things that YECs couldn't even begin to explain.

How could YECs account for siccar point? Sure they'll make up some half baked explanation about soft sediment deposition. But when we acknowledge structural features, such as the slickenlines or fault breccias noted above, what could any YEC possibly say?

If there are entire forests growing between periods of time that allegedly were deposited by a flood that was intentionally performed to render life extinct, what gives? How could doomsday be permeated with life thriving right in the middle of it (foot tracks, forests, nests with eggs, burrow networks, feeding traces etc.)? Alternatively, in an old earth view, such incredibly long times have passed that it's not hard to imagine how sea level rise or sea level drop, could result in deposition of sediment that ultimately buries near shore environments like the everglades.

I digress.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Your still ignoring the elephant in the room that just does not fit your rather uniformitarian views of constant changes over an assumed billions of years. Your picturing the flood as one big giant tidal wave that just buried the whole earth and killed everything instantly. Perhaps you need to rethink that by reading papers by PHD’s in geology who’s scientific conjecture based on the evidence they examine says differently.
 
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Job 33:6

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I would say that your concerns have been addressed, you asked a question of how large bodies of rock could span thousands of square miles, and I explained how oceanic trans and regressive sequences do just that, just as continental margins span thousands of square miles today. Continental margins and locations of marine deposition are massive, but they are a long shot from the entire planet being covered by water. And this is what we see in geologic maps, we don't see the entire planet covered by flood deposits, but we do see large formations with the appearance of continental margins, locations where there are prehistoric coral reefs for example.

As a separate concept, you asked how a forest could be buried and that too has been addressed. Anyone can go to the Everglades today and see a forest slowly being buried by sediment. Trees can live dozens, if not hundreds of years and some even over a thousand years. Meanwhile things like hurricanes bring in sometimes feet of sediment in a single storm. And we can go to places like the Everglades and can observe deposition and burial of live trees all the time. Each year and then cheer or an inch there, the occasional foot of deposition by a large hurricane etc. And it should be noted that these kinds of buried forests are not laterally continuous over thousands of miles rather they're usually geographically isolated and relatively small. So this would be a separate topic from formations of oceanic trans and regressive origins.


Go ahead and provide a technical response. If you believe that you can. If you think that my responses have come up short of addressing your concerns, then quote me and state why you think that.

And if you're not familiar enough with the subject to respond, then I'd recommend suspending judgement until you are able.

You should be aware that the PhDs that you're referring to can't even explain their own ideas and even invoke miracles in their models to address issues such as the commonly dubbed "heat problem" :

"A simple calculation shows that crustal rocks with their present amount of radioactivity would melt many times over if decay rates were accelerated. However, I would like to emphasize here that all creationist Creation or Flood models I know of have serious problems with heat disposal. (Baumgardner 1986: 211, cited in Humphreys 2000: 369-70)"

^on the issue of heat generated by accelerated nuclear decay.

"If released near the earth's surface, this amount of energy is sufficient to melt a layer of silicate rock 12 km thick or to boil away a layer of water 25 km deep over the entire earth. It is equivalent to the kinetic energy of 170 000 asteroids, each 10 km in diameter and traveling at 15 km/s." (Baumgardner 1990: 37)

^on the issue of heat generated by the friction of accelerated tectonic drift.

I actually know of YEC claims quite well. I've been reading their works for some 15+ years and they suffer from some pretty major issues which they themselves have openly recognized yet never resolved.

But I'll leave you with a simple concept to clarify on my prior post:

Imagine taking a piece of chalk and rubbing it on the sidewalk. It makes a streak. This is how slickenlines form in geology, between two massive bodies of dense rock scraping past one another.

You see, with superposition, we know that rocks were lithified prior to deformation and we know when they lithified. And this is a severe issue for YECs that believe that everything was deposited as soft sediment in a flood. Especially in circumstances in which overlying stratigraphy is undisturbed atop Paleozoic angular unconformities that allegedly deposited mid-flood. This is why YEC professionals will never actually agree on what strata was pre or post flood, because the moment they actually clarify on their beliefs, they become subject to critique and rapidly fall apart. And so quite frankly I don't care of you feel that I've mischaracterized their models, because none of them themselves will ever actually clarify on what they believe, much less would their lay-audience ever understand their writings themselves.

In short, YEC models can't account for many of the most basic features we see in geology. And most lay-people who follow their works simply aren't familiar enough with the subject to identify many of these glaring issues such as the one just mentioned.

The scriptural basis for YECism is also equally as bad if you're ever interested in that subject as well. For example, I'd recommend Peter Enns book "Genesis for Normal People", or Paul Seelys Firmament and the water above, a PDF of this article can be observed here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw39YMhswlVVBzqeeJbEajXM

 
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lifepsyop

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There's little need to adhere to a uniformitarian millions-of-years worldview when we can watch similar scenarios of stratification happening rapidly in real time.

(95) Experiments in Stratification - YouTube



Sedimentary experiments: Preliminary report (ianjuby.org)



Perhaps it's only a strange coincidence that the earth surface stratification that you are convinced is the product of hundreds of millions of years of gradual deposition and sea level changes, can likewise be directly observed happening rapidly within minutes, hours, or days.

But for those of us who believe God's word, and God's account of history, it is not surprising to find that the predominant pattern of mega-sequence sediment stratification found all over the earth is apparently similar to the stratification produced rapidly by moving water.




This is why YEC professionals will never actually agree on what strata was pre or post flood

There's a pretty good reason for the lack of certainty if you stop to think about it. The ensuing geologic catastrophes following the recession of global floodwaters would cause almost as much upheaval as the global deluge itself.... e.g. sudden and extreme surface weight-displacements as waters run off continents, massive ice sheets and lakes bound up atop of continents with unstable dam structures waiting to fail and cause more floods. As such it would be predictably difficult to locate such a distinguishing boundary line. It's large-scale catastrophic burial on either side.


At the end of the day, there is so much evidence that points to a recent global flood, (it is hard to imagine a clearer record that might be left preserved in the earth as a testimonial to God's global judgment), it really shows how the whole controversy was never really about evidence to begin with. The idea of a recent worldwide judgment from a wrathful God is traumatizing to our human pride, and it is fully understandable why people would want to blot it out of history.



(I am often reminded of the Missoula Floods controversy, where conventional geologists were so upset about the idea of large-scale catastrophism in earth history that they fought tooth and nail against the scientific evidence of it... and this was a relatively minor geologic catastrophe... It doesn't matter how much evidence for a global flood there actually is... these modern institutions are collectively and spiritually bound in their rejection of it.)


 
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