Gentiles? Not Anymore!

HARK! · May 3, 2020

expos4ever said:
1. The Law of Moses remains in force;

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

expos4ever said:
2. Both Jew and Gentile are subject to the Law of Moses;

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

expos4ever said:
3. Therefore, any statement about Jew and Gentile being "one" implies that the Law of Moses could not possibly be a barrier between Jew and Gentile.

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

expos4ever said:
This argument only works if the Law of Moses remains in force. And what does Paul say about this matter?:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

expos4ever · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
Nonsense. YHWH's word is not dogma.

look at the Greek, "dogmasin" for context of decree. It is not of YHWH.

You must really think the readers here are rather opaque.

You yourself offered this definition of "dogmasin":

δογμασιν
dogmasin
decrees
dogma
G1378

You certainly appear to be assuming that "dogma" sense is being used here. How do you know that the author is not intending the "decrees" sense?

In short, we need a non-circular argument that rules out the possibility that Paul is talking about the Law.

HARK! · May 3, 2020

expos4ever said:
You certainly appear to be assuming that "dogma" sense is being used here. How do you know that the author is not intending the "decrees" sense?

The Greek word is dogma. Why would you suspect it means something else; and if so what do you suppose it means?

expos4ever · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
The Torah was never a fence.....

This is an argument you cannot possibly win. Look, we all know, not least from the bald facts of history if not Scripture itself, that the Torah was indeed a divisive force between Jew and Gentile. When the Jews identified themselves as a people set apart from the nations as the apple of God's eye, how can that not cause division?

In any case, Leviticus 20:25 clearly describes how the food laws, part of Torah of course, function to separate the Jew from the Gentile!

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

expos4ever · May 3, 2020

Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

As usual, Hark is conveniently silent on one fact that severely undercuts his implied argument: the Bible, as well as other Jewish literature of the time, often uses such "end of the world" imagery as a metaphor to denote significant socio-political change in the here and now.

HARK! · May 3, 2020

expos4ever said:
This is an argument you cannot possibly win. Look, we all know, not least from the bald facts of history if not Scripture itself, that the Torah was indeed a divisive force between Jew and Gentile. When the Jews identified themselves as a people set apart from the nations as the apple of God's eye, how can that not cause division?

In any case, Leviticus 20:25 clearly describes how the food laws, part of Torah of course, function to separate the Jew from the Gentile!

The Torah was never a fence between bloodlines who entered covenant with YHWH. This was demonstrated at Sinai, with the mixed multitude.

Context is key my friend. You have to read the whole sentence to understand the context.

Scott Husted · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
When you are in a relationship; thinking about what you are going to get out of the deal is not an expression of love.

The dialectic is implied in the form of rewards ... like calling light good, it makes darkness evil by default.

Maria Billingsley · May 3, 2020

This post is under "controversial Christian theology". Everything that is posted in this forum MUST be taken exactly as stated "controversial". So unless you are well equipped with the truth through the power of the Holy Spirit, you may get stumbled by the clever twisting of scripture. I will pray for all who engage that they may see the truth through the confusion. We are all one in The Body of Christ and it is He who has fulfilled the Law which allows us to enter into His Kingdom.
Be blessed and stay healthy!

HARK! · May 3, 2020

Scott Husted said:
. like calling light good, it makes darkness evil by default.

No it doesn't One could be good and one could be better. One can make endless comparisons.

Dkh587 · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
The Torah was never a fence between bloodlines who entered covenant with YHWH. This was demonstrated at Sinai, with the mixed multitude.

Context is key my friend. You have to read the whole sentence to understand the context.

I’ve been waiting for someone to show us that the Law was ever called a fence, a wall, or any other sort of structure that blocks and keeps people out.

HARK! · May 3, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
This post is under "controversial Christian theology". Everything that is posted in this forum MUST be taken exactly as stated "controversial". So unless you are well equipped with the truth through the power of the Holy Spirit, you may get stumbled by the clever twisting of scripture. I will pray for all who engage that they may see the truth through the confusion. We are all one in The Body of Christ and it is He who has fulfilled the Law which allows us to enter into His Kingdom.
Be blessed and stay healthy!

It's a sad state of affairs; when proclaiming YHWH's truth creates controversy.

HARK! · May 3, 2020

Dkh587 said:
I’ve been waiting for someone to show us that the Law was ever called a fence, a wall, or any other sort of structure that blocks and keeps people out.

Be prepared for a long wait.

Maria Billingsley · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
It's a sad state of affairs; when proclaiming YHWH's truth creates controversy.

Agreed! Use this forum next time. Messianic Judaism
Be blessed.

HARK! · May 3, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
Agreed! Use this forum next time. Messianic Judaism
Be blessed.

I doubt that YHWH's truth would raise much controversy there, as well as with many other Christian denominations who hold fast to YHWH's word. This forum provides a wonderful medium for outreach to those who are less familiar with some of these fine points.

Thank you for sharing.

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
Why would you assume that Jews placing Talmud over Torah wouldn't qualify as the lost sheep of Israel?

Why would you assume it does?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
I don't recall seeing Christ's holy and catholic Church, anywhere in the OP; nor anywhere in the Bible for that matter.

Really? You can't find mention of the Church anywhere in the Bible?

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search

-CryptoLutheran

HARK! · May 3, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Why would you assume it does?

Yahshua rebuked those who put Talmud over Torah. Clearly they were not on the path, therefore lost.

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
Yahshua rebuked those who put Talmud over Torah. Clearly they were not on the path, therefore lost.

Interesting, I seem to recall Jesus calling Himself the Physician who came for the sick, calling sinners. You know, eating and drinking with prostitutes and tax collectors, being among the lepers, the blind, the deaf, the sick, etc. You know, those forgotten and thrown under the heel of society. The lost sheep of Israel.

-CryptoLutheran

HARK! · May 3, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Really? You can't find mention of the Church anywhere in the Bible?

If you meant church; why didn't you say church? I don't see "Christ's holy and catholic Church" anywhere in the Bible.

HARK! · May 3, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Interesting, I seem to recall Jesus calling Himself the Physician who came for the sick, calling sinners. You know, eating and drinking with prostitutes and tax collectors, being among the lepers, the blind, the deaf, the sick, etc. You know, those forgotten and thrown under the heel of society. The lost sheep of Israel.

How would one individual being lost in one way, make another individual lost in another way, any less lost?

Gentiles? Not Anymore!

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