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2PhiloVoid

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You didn't say emulation.

When one understands semantics and denotative referents for conceptual definition, an understanding of possible overlap and inference in meaning is easier to achieve, Chesterton.

But, if it seems better to you, I'll say it another way: Simulation and Imitation are two different, even if seemingly similar, states.
 
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Chesterton

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When one understands semantics and denotative referents for conceptual definition, an understanding of possible overlap and inference in meaning is easier to achieve, Chesterton.
Explain?
But, if it seems better to you, I'll say it another way: Simulation and Imitation are two different, even if seemingly similar, states.
No, they're not.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Part of the overall problem here is that both terms, simulation and imitation, are polysemous.
No, they're not.

Yes,..................they are. But if you value using simulation as a category of relevance for your own theology or life, I'm not going to stop you.
 
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Chesterton

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Part of the overall problem here is that both terms, simulation and imitation, are polysemous.
All words are polysemous, if you just want to quibble. We could debate the difference between a rock and a stone.
Yes,..................they are. But if you value using simulation as a category of relevance for your own theology or life, I'm not going to stop you.
I'm just here to talk.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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2PhiloVoid

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We're getting off topic.

One thing that might help is that since Tom Bilyeu uses the movie, The Matrix, as a contextual foil, you might want to watch that movie to better catch his nuance of meaning?

Or not.
 
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Chesterton

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One thing that might help is that since Tom Bilyeu uses the movie, The Matrix, as a contextual foil, you might want to watch that movie to better catch his nuance of meaning?

Or not.
I had to go back to the OP to see who Tom Bilyeu was, lol. I'm a little familiar with The Matrix story, but I don't know how to watch movies since the 1990's.
 
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Hans Blaster

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All words are polysemous, if you just want to quibble. We could debate the difference between a rock and a stone.

For example, I use polysemous to mean when the various grasses in my lawn are at different heights, but it is too soon to mow.
 
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partinobodycular

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You've already been given the definition.

Unfortunately the definition was completely worthless. Just so there's no confusion I'll quote it.

Realism is the assumption that objects have definite states whether or not anyone is looking at them. The chair exists when you leave the room. When you stop this video, you know I'm still going to exist out here. somewhere. The moon is up in the sky whether you're looking at it or not. Reality is continuous. It's objective and permanent. It's out there waiting to be discovered. You don't create it by observing it. It already exists.

First, that's the philosophical definition of 'Realism'. It's pure assumption. With no logical basis whatsoever. But if that's the definition that you want to go with, I'm perfectly happy to do so.

"Something is real, when it has a definite state, even when no one is looking at it."

Beside the fact that there's no reason to believe that this is true, it's also impossible to prove. Prove to me that the moon exists even when I'm not looking at it. (And by 'looking at it' I mean interacting with it in any way, directly or indirectly.) It simply can't be done. Therefore, using the above definition it's impossible to definitively know whether anything at all is real.

But it gets exponentially worse, because Mr. Bilyeu then gives the example of a chair still existing when you leave the room... a chair which he himself claims is a simulation... and in fact doesn't exist when you leave the room. So which is it, does that chair exist when you leave the room or doesn't it, and how does Mr. Bilyeu know?

All of which leads to my predicament. What do we mean by real, and why should I assume that 'real' things don't effectively disappear when I'm not looking at them. Why should I assume that 'having a definitive state when no one is looking at it' is the correct way to define real?

In other words, Mr. Bilyeu's entire argument is based solely upon something that he can't even adequately define.
 
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sjastro

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Here is something for @Chesterton to consider, if he is smart enough he might be able to comprehend it and realise why his video is utter nonsense particularly when it is centred around the idea that distance is an illusion.
In a previous post I explained that quantum field theories including entanglement depends on space-time being real meaning distance is not an illusion, another refutation given here and at a more elementary level involves dimensional analysis and basic quantum mechanics.

Firstly the dimensional analysis; mass is defined as M, distance has dimension of length L, velocity is defined as distance L per time T with dimension LT⁻¹, momentum is mass multiplied by velocity with dimension MLT⁻¹.
In basic quantum mechanics, the position x and momentum p of a particle cannot not be measured with 100% certainty, reducing the uncertainty in the position Δx, increases the uncertainty in the momentum Δp and vice versa.

The relationship between Δx and Δp is defined by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Δx.Δp ≥ h/4.

Performing dimensional analysis on Δx.Δp gives LMLT⁻¹ = ML² T⁻¹.
The right-hand side of the equation must also have the same units hence h ≡ ML² T⁻¹.
h is a physical constant known as Planck’s constant and has the value 6.6260715 x 10⁻³⁴ J.s.
J.s is joule-seconds and has the dimensions ML² T⁻¹.

So where does h appear in nature, one example is the energy levels Eₙ in the hydrogen atom defined by the equation
Eₙ = -mₑe⁴/8εₒ²h²n² ≡ MM²L⁶T⁻⁴/M²L⁴T⁻² = ML²T⁻² which is the dimensions for energy J in joules.
In the hydrogen spectrum the observed spectral lines directly correspond to the energy spacings between allowed electron energy levels.
Since L appears in the dimensional analysis for energy does this mean the spectrum of any atom is an illusion; does any physical parameter which contains L in its dimensional analysis also an illusion?

I got ChatGpt-5.4 to evaluate the dimensional formula of physical constants containing the parameter L which is more to the point instead of physical parameters.
If the distance L is illusionary then so are these physical constants and given there are plethora of them I can safely assume our universe wouldn't exist as there would be no intelligent beings either to create simulations.
I don't recall if the video claimed who created the universe simulation whether it was divine or otherwise as I struggled to stay awake.
The video might inadvertently be making a case for solipsism instead.

physical_constants.png
 
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Chesterton

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Unfortunately the definition was completely worthless. Just so there's no confusion I'll quote it.



First, that's the philosophical definition of 'Realism'. It's pure assumption. With no logical basis whatsoever. But if that's the definition that you want to go with, I'm perfectly happy to do so.

"Something is real, when it has a definite state, even when no one is looking at it."

Beside the fact that there's no reason to believe that this is true, it's also impossible to prove. Prove to me that the moon exists even when I'm not looking at it. (And by 'looking at it' I mean interacting with it in any way, directly or indirectly.) It simply can't be done. Therefore, using the above definition it's impossible to definitively know whether anything at all is real.

But it gets exponentially worse, because Mr. Bilyeu then gives the example of a chair still existing when you leave the room... a chair which he himself claims is a simulation... and in fact doesn't exist when you leave the room. So which is it, does that chair exist when you leave the room or doesn't it, and how does Mr. Bilyeu know?

All of which leads to my predicament. What do we mean by real, and why should I assume that 'real' things don't effectively disappear when I'm not looking at them. Why should I assume that 'having a definitive state when no one is looking at it' is the correct way to define real?

In other words, Mr. Bilyeu's entire argument is based solely upon something that he can't even adequately define.
I don't know what you're on about. You seem to agree with him.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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2PhiloVoid

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I don't know what you're on about. You seem to agree with him.

I took Tim Bilyeu at his word. When he says that locality and realism are "wrong," I'm assuming that means he thinks locality and realism are wrong.

I'm not sure why anyone else would think he was advocating for the usually intended denotation of 'Realism.'
 
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partinobodycular

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I don't know what you're on about. You seem to agree with him.

Just to be clear, I find the idea of a simulated reality to be quite intriguing, but my main concern lies in what the 'no longer available' video means by 'simulated' versus 'real'.

Most people don't seem to see the problem, so I thought that I'd make one more attempt to explain. Everything that I experience is a mental construct. The OP's contention is that the only parts of that mental construct that are 'real' are the one's that continue to exist even when I'm not looking at them.

The problem is, that I have no way of knowing if anything at all continues to exist when I'm not looking at it. In which case I need a different way of defining 'real', because 'it continues to exist even when I'm not looking at it' is useless. So far, no one seems to want to provide that definition. :help:

What's even stranger is that this actually has little at all to do with the OP's contention that we're living in a simulation, which seems to be based solely upon the similarities between how computer simulations work, and how reality at the quantum level seems to work. On which front Mr. Bilyeu's comparison is woefully simplistic, and followed to its logical conclusion would inevitably lead to the conclusion that the only thing that's 'real' in this simulation... is me. But then again, given the initial definition of what's 'real', I'd even have to question whether I'm actually real.
 
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AV1611VET

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But then again, given the initial definition of what's 'real', I'd even have to question whether I'm actually real.

That's a very dangerous mindset.

From AI Overview:

If taken too far, the belief that the world is not real can lead to depersonalization, derealization, or a disconnect from everyday responsibilities.

In addition to:

Individuals who have committed violent acts while believing they were in a simulated reality, often dubbed "The Matrix defense," include teenagers and adults obsessed with the idea that life is not real, frequently inspired by the film The Matrix or similar nihilistic interpretations of simulation theory.

Lee Boyd Malvo: One of the D.C. snipers (2002) who killed 10 people. He reportedly told FBI agents that the film The Matrix held the key to understanding his actions, with reports indicating he was influenced by its "simulated" reality.

Vadym Retyunsky: A person in 2003 who committed murder and used "The Matrix defense," with his attorney citing an obsession with the movie's virtual reality premise.

Tonda Lynn Cooke: A woman who committed murder in 2003 and for whom a court-appointed psychologist stated she "harbored a bona fide belief that she was living in the virtual reality of The Matrix"
 
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partinobodycular

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That's a very dangerous mindset.

From AI Overview:

If taken too far, the belief that the world is not real can lead to depersonalization, derealization, or a disconnect from everyday responsibilities.

In addition to:

Individuals who have committed violent acts while believing they were in a simulated reality, often dubbed "The Matrix defense," include teenagers and adults obsessed with the idea that life is not real, frequently inspired by the film The Matrix or similar nihilistic interpretations of simulation theory.

Lee Boyd Malvo: One of the D.C. snipers (2002) who killed 10 people. He reportedly told FBI agents that the film The Matrix held the key to understanding his actions, with reports indicating he was influenced by its "simulated" reality.

Vadym Retyunsky: A person in 2003 who committed murder and used "The Matrix defense," with his attorney citing an obsession with the movie's virtual reality premise.

Tonda Lynn Cooke: A woman who committed murder in 2003 and for whom a court-appointed psychologist stated she "harbored a bona fide belief that she was living in the virtual reality of The Matrix"

Oddly enough I have no such leanings, in fact for me, the exact opposite is true, I can forgive those whom others may find unforgivable. For better or worse, I am what I am, and the world is as it is. The quest, is to make both of them better.

Plus, if I'm in a simulated reality, then those stories are just part of the simulation, and from my perspective, the fact that people are so irrational is the strongest indication that they're not real. Otherwise, how could I possibly explain Donald Trump? ;)
 
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AV1611VET

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