Genesis: Literal?

[PioMagnus]

I need some help using both logic and scripture why Genesis does not HAVE to be literal.

Thank you in advance.

Pio Magnus

 

[Roald]

There are many forms of writing, and stories are often used to convey truths. A story can be completely true and yet completely figurative. Remember that in public, Jesus spoke almost entirely in parables. Was he telling lies? No. Were his stories all literally true? No, he was conveying absolute truths using figurative language and stories. Think of the Apocalypse of St. John (Revelation). Don't you think that there is a whole lot of figurative language in that book?

 

[Gwendolyn]

For starters, in his Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II states that the creation story in Genesis is an archaic form of conveying truths about ourselves and the nature of our world through highly symbolic and metaphoric myth.

Then there's the fact that the manuscripts we have seem to have come from two different stories and were simply amalgamated - one is referred to as the "Yahwist" account (because the name for God is "Yahweh"), the other, the "Elohim" account (because name for God used is "Elohim"). That, also, is addressed in the Theology of the Body.

That is currently the only stuff that comes to mind now because I'm dead tired and the TotB is the current book I'm reading.

 

[Roald]

What VeP said about two different stories in Genesis is important. Read the Creation account again, carefully. Why is God creating all of the animals and Man twice and in two different orders?

 

[InnerPhyre]

Jesus taught with parables that weren't historically true, but taught truth in a way that made difficult concepts or events easy to understand. Why wouldn't God the Father teach the same way?

 

[RedTulipMom]

If JPII is saying that the Genesis account is conveying truths through highly symbolic and metaphoric myths then why does the Catholic church teach that Adam and Eve were real people?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The names are symbolic. Adam literally means man, Eve mother as in mother of all. We believe the story depicts an act of God to create the human race. Something that involved making the first man and woman special among all other created beings on the earth. Are there actual names known or important? No. But we do believe that we all descind from a single man and women and it is in that since that we say there was an Adam and Eve.

Remember myth does not mean fiction or not true. A myth is a just a means, usually a colorful way of telling a story about actual events that incorporates facts but is not presented in a factual manner. There were no reporters standing around watching God create the universe, so the truths from this story had to have been revealed by God to someone at some point. They incorporate these truths into a creation story, one that would be suitable for telling around a campfire to all the kids at night. This gets passed down until they learn to write and somewhere along the way sepperate groups develope at least two versions of thier favorite version of that story, so now we have two.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The OP has not come back yet. My assumption is the question is being posed in relation to explaining this to someone who believes it is literal. What reasons could we give to such a person to explain that it does not HAVE to be literal?

Have been there and can tell you when you are relying on the Bible alone, it is a VERY scary thing for someone to try and tell you that the very beginning of the book may not say what you always thought it said. If you have nothing else to fall back on but the Bible alone, then where do you turn and what else in your understanding of the Bible do you have wrong.

A German priest, sorry forget his name, was asked something like; what would happen to the Church if they found the tomb of Christ complete with a 1st century body of Jewish decent and wounds from a brutal crucifixion? His answer was short and sweet. Nothing!

Our faith is not based on what we know, can see or can prove. It is based on our faith in the resurrected body of Christ and the message He gave us, which we get through the Church which preserves what it got through the power of the Holy Spirit from the Apostles.

In order to open someone's eyes to other possible understandings of the creation story, you would first have to convince them that embracing a non-literal view should have no bearing on our (or thier) faith.

 

[ChiRho]

The names are symbolic. Adam literally means man, Eve mother as in mother of all. We believe the story depicts an act of God to create the human race. Something that involved making the first man and woman special among all other created beings on the earth. Are there actual names known or important? No. But we do believe that we all descind from a single man and women and it is in that since that we say there was an Adam and Eve.

I think the names are important. Was Seth the real child from Adam and Eve? Were his children real and are their names accurate? How about the continuous names showing the lineage of Christ? I would say that we have to assume that they are...for what reason do we have to believe contrary, save our own analytical philosophy? As God sets His own parameters to work in, nothing is beyond Him. But if God was able to make Himself a Man, die for our sins, and raise Himself from the grave, why couldnt the literal account of Genesis be true? Do we know that "...there was evening and there was morning, one day" actually means a day as we know it today? No. But what evidence do we have to call this into question? Scripture says morning + evening = day. Sound familiar?

It is not hard for me to believe that this God, Whom also speaks my forgiveness of sins (quite a feat in itself), spoke Creation into existence in seven literal days.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

If JPII is saying that the Genesis account is conveying truths through highly symbolic and metaphoric myths then why does the Catholic church teach that Adam and Eve were real people?

Good question. The Church dogmatically teaches that Adam and Eve were the first and only people.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Jesus taught with parables that weren't historically true, but taught truth in a way that made difficult concepts or events easy to understand. Why wouldn't God the Father teach the same way?

Jesus was not using metaphorical language when He said "from the beginning God made them male and female" and when He talking about what people were doing right before the Flood. He sounded pretty literal to me.

 

[nyj]

Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn. St. Augustine -The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Chapter 19

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn. St. Augustine -The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Chapter 19

I've seen this quote used before...are you implying St Augustine thought Genesis was not literal?

 

[ChiRho]

Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn. St. Augustine -The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Chapter 19

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.... Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by these who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. (pp. 42-43)"

Maybe some context helps.

 

[ChiRho]

I am not an expert...but after reading some of the passages from The City of God...a later work of Augustine, he seems to agree more with a literal Creation.

Here is the link:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120112.htm

 

[Dream]

Catholic dogmas on the creation:
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/font]

1. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
2. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
3. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Man consists of two essential parts--a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
4. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
5. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
6. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
7. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
8. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
9. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
   
10. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
11. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
12. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
13. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
14. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
15. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
16. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
17. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
18. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
19. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Adam's sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
20. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
21. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
22. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/font]
    
23. [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)[/font]
    
    

 

[InnerPhyre]

Jesus was not using metaphorical language when He said "from the beginning God made them male and female" and when He talking about what people were doing right before the Flood. He sounded pretty literal to me.

I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't a first man and a first woman. Just that the story was simplified.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I am not an expert...but after reading some of the passages from The City of God...a later work of Augustine, he seems to agree more with a literal Creation.

Here is the link:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120112.htm

As did every Church Father that I know of.

 

[RedTulipMom]

I was thinking about it..and since we have a listing in the bible of who beget who and the line goes from adam...to abraham...to jesus...doesnt adam and eve HAVE to be literal people??
karen

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I was thinking about it..and since we have a listing in the bible of who beget who and the line goes from adam...to abraham...to jesus...doesnt adam and eve HAVE to be literal people??
karen

Not necessarily. A study of ancient geneologies reveals that they often transition from actual people to mythological figures at some point.