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Hey, laptoppop. I know you've posted in this thread, so just in case you read this, I've highlighted part of juvenissun's post that you should be aware of. It'd probably be good to read the rest of his post to, especially where he specifically states that we should take the Bible literally.Sounds like you have something to say after someone jumped out. So, here I am, a literalist.
No, but if the explanation is based on a methodology that specifically excludes the supernatural, you are describing a different reality than mine. God is real, and active. (which I actually think we both would agree with -- I'm just trying to help you see the limits of the scientific method -- one must understand the results of presuppositions.)
1. If we do not read the Bible literally, it would be like to drive in the open field: any direction would be OK.
2. Problems caused by literal reading may not be real problems. Ancient people read the Scripture and thought the earth is flat. That was OK. It hurt nothing. Now we read the same verses and can appreciate the wisdom hidden in the words. That is beautiful. You think you know what is flat and what is round. Don't be so sure until you learn some geometry in topology. If we turned the Earth inside out (like what we think the Venus is doing), it may not be so round. It may even be truly flat after all.
Read the 4000 years old Scripture by having a modern scientific glasses on, not only the old old verses are more and more conformable with the understanding of modern science, but they are still able to guide the direction of future scientific research. Well, I can only see the All Wisdom of God in His Words. I would NOT want to read the Bible any other way.
For the most part, I'd agree with this.My feeling is that most of what happens - 99.9999% - is fueled by the natural processes God set up from the beginning.
I'd be VERY careful about limiting the way that God acts. He does as He wills, not just one way.I believe he acts supernaturally through a human medium; i.e., answering prayer. It is through our petitions that He performs miracles that defy the natural order of things, but otherwise, the world goes on as it will.
My feeling is that most of what happens - 99.9999% - is fueled by the natural processes God set up from the beginning. I believe he acts supernaturally through a human medium; i.e., answering prayer. It is through our petitions that He performs miracles that defy the natural order of things, but otherwise, the world goes on as it will.
The universe has no right to exist. That it does is continually dependent upon the grace and sustaining power of God, as the Bible proclaims in many places e.g. Genesis 1, John 1, Colossians 1. (Not all of these, of course, are to be taken literally.) As such, what does it mean to have a "natural order of things"? Can something whose very existence depends on God maintain itself apart from Him?
I agree that the interaction between God and the universe is mysterious and hard, if not impossible, to describe accurately. But we should avoid certain words and ideas, and one of them is that God "set up from the beginning" certain things. It reflects the idea that God started the universe up and then let it go on its own. He didn't; the universe is as dependent on Him to exist right now as it depended on Him to begin existing right from the beginning. God is at the very least the Ground of All Being, and anything "natural" comes from Him as much as anything "supernatural" ... creationism notwithstanding.
I'd be VERY careful about limiting the way that God acts. He does as He wills, not just one way.
The big point I want you to recognize are the limits and preconceptions of the scientific method. It is useful for what it is useful for, but it has definite limits.
I agree that the interaction between God and the universe is mysterious and hard, if not impossible, to describe accurately. But we should avoid certain words and ideas, and one of them is that God "set up from the beginning" certain things. It reflects the idea that God started the universe up and then let it go on its own. He didn't; the universe is as dependent on Him to exist right now as it depended on Him to begin existing right from the beginning. God is at the very least the Ground of All Being, and anything "natural" comes from Him as much as anything "supernatural" ... creationism notwithstanding.
Actually, the Bible also teaches predestination -- He chose us, we didn't choose Him.Oh, and just to clarify - just because God "set things into motion by creating natural laws to govern it" doesn't mean its independent of Him. Most Christians accept the concept of free will; by accepting that, we automatically accept that God has necessarily limited His influence on the universe.
Heh. I'm not getting into THAT argument again. Suffice it to say, I'mActually, the Bible also teaches predestination -- He chose us, we didn't choose Him.
It is hard to understand how they work together. For me, an understanding of God being outside of time reconciles the two.
You think this happens because we continue to read the bible literally? No, what actually happens is that incontestable knowledge that conflicts with our view of scripture FORCES us to re-interpret it in a way that stays consistent with known facts. We find hidden wisdom because we're forced to look past the obvious meaning and see the deeper meaning underneath.
Er... nothing? I agree with you.Sounds like you have something to say after someone jumped out. So, here I am, a literalist.
There are several reasons, just name two: 1. If we do not read the Bible literally, it would be like to drive in the open field: any direction would be OK. 2. Problems caused by literal reading may not be real problems. Ancient people read the Scripture and thought the earth is flat. That was OK. It hurt nothing. Now we read the same verses and can appreciate the wisdom hidden in the words. That is beautiful. You think you know what is flat and what is round. Don't be so sure until you learn some geometry in topology. If we turned the Earth inside out (like what we think the Venus is doing), it may not be so round. It may even be truly flat after all.
Read the 4000 years old Scripture by having a modern scientific glasses on, not only the old old verses are more and more conformable with the understanding of modern science, but they are still able to guide the direction of future scientific research. Well, I can only see the All Wisdom of God in His Words. I would NOT want to read the Bible any other way.
So, what are you going to say?
Oh for...
Are you guys blind? Did I not specifically request one very simple thing?
1) Only those who think Genesis is a literal account, need reply.
Anyone is allowed to specify some requests for threads, it's simply good manners and common courteousy to respect them.
You didn't seem to have any issues when I did the exact same and allowed non-literal replies there. I see the exact same posting behaviour in the open forums too, and I specifically wanted here to allows others to read it and hear people's views, without A) Having to wade deeper into the sub-forums and B) Without any negative impact that messy debates invoke.
Please keep that in mind.
Thanks,
Digit
Ok, agreed. Apologies for the outburst.The thing is, individuals are going to wander into this thread, and most are not going to bother reading the OP, they are just going to read the last few ones, and respond to anything that spikes their interest.
It's quite naive to come into the open forums, and say you can read but don't respond, particularly when a post on "literalism" or a post on "non-literalism", is going to cross a few sour spots, that the parties you are trying to keep out, are going to feel inclined to respond to.
If you want to have a private creationist conversation, then go over there into the private creationist subforum, if a TE is interested in reading conversations among YECs, he'll find his way into the subforums, and read without responding, to his heart's desire.
That whole, little tantrum a few post ago wasn't appreciated, that type of uncalled for language gets under my skin. Someone runs across a thread in the open forum, they assume they can respond, if you have such an issue with this, you shouldn't be posting here in the first place.
You have a no opposition response zone, so go use it, rather than foaming at the mouth, adding hostility to a thread that wasn't there to begin with.
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