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Genesis is a lie. Question for christians...

Montalban

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Yes. And No. :p

From a strictly biological point of view, genes give us everything.
that's not true.

The folds in DNA is because of chemistry, not genetics.

Michael Denton states “Yet by the late 1980s it was becoming obvious to most genetic researchers, including myself, since my own main research interest in the '80s and '90s was human genetics, that the heroic effort to find the information specifying life's order in the genes had failed. There was no longer the slightest justification for believing that there exists anything in the genome remotely resembling a program capable of specifying in detail all the complex order of the phenotype... From being 'isolated directors' of a one-way game of life, genes are now considered to be interactive players in a dynamic two-way dance of almost unfathomable complexity, as described by Keller in “The Century of the Gene”
Michael John Denton ”An Anti-Darwin Intellectual Journey”, in Dembski, W. A.

He gives examples of the folds in RNA which happen consistently, and independently of genetic coding... but these rules governing the folds... “These laws of protein form are strictly equivalent to the rules that govern the way atoms are combined into molecules or subatomic particles are combined into atoms to generate the periodic table of elements...
The folds present stunning evidence, perhaps the first clear evidence discovered in biology, that highly complex organic forms can be generated by natural law. With the folds, the impossible has become possible - the basic building blocks of nature are specified in abstract laws of form and are not simply a mechanical program in the genes. They are lawful, emergent, self-organising forms and not contingent 'cleverly contrived machines'. Here is a set of forms that arise directly out of the basic properties of matter, confirming the inference I had previously drawn from reading Henderson, that life might be encoded in the basic properties of matter.”
Ibid, pp173-74
 
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chris4243

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Even people on your side ON THIS THREAD have recognised here it's a tautology!http://www.christianforums.com/t7539880-3/#post56877025

Just a note, my describing it as a tautology was pretty much copied off what you said -- I just thought it amusing that you consider a good descriptor of the theory of evolution to be something which must necessarily be true. Whether "survival of the fittest" is a tautology or not depends on the way you define fitness. You two seem to disagree as to how to define fitness, and hence also disagree on whether it is a tautology or not.

As for myself, I prefer the tautology version. It's pretty nice to be in the company of other tautologies like "In Euclidean geometry, if a convex polygon has n sides, then its interior angle sum is given by the following equation: S = ( n −2) × 180°."
 
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chris4243

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How a person of intelligence choosing traits is analogous to nature not choosing is still not known to me

Use your definition of fitness, which pigeons living at the pigeon breeder's were the most fit? The fitter pigeons bred more regardless of the reasons as to why any particular traits increased their fitness, yes? It's still classic evolution, only the environment is one in which survival is determined by an environment consisting of intelligent agents choosing traits they fancy, rather than some combination of foraging, predation, mate choice, and competition against other organisms.

Like predicted by the theory of evolution, this change in selection results in extremely rapid evolution. Note that all this is still consistent with, though not predicted by, creationism.
 
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Montalban

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Just a note, my describing it as a tautology was pretty much copied off what you said
If you want to qualify your statement now, that's fine

-- I just thought it amusing that you consider a good descriptor of the theory of evolution to be something which must necessarily be true.
I find it amusing that I never said I consider it a good descriptor. I may have noted that Darwin did, and that you asked me to come up with what I think is better - and I didn't go down that path
Whether "survival of the fittest" is a tautology or not depends on the way you define fitness. You two seem to disagree as to how to define fitness, and hence also disagree on whether it is a tautology or not.
I look to what Darwin said - that which survives survives
As for myself, I prefer the tautology version.
So you're NOT qualifying what you said earlier

It's pretty nice to be in the company of other tautologies like "In Euclidean geometry, if a convex polygon has n sides, then its interior angle sum is given by the following equation: S = ( n −2) × 180°."

I've noted you can predict things in maths.
 
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Montalban

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Use your definition of fitness, which pigeons living at the pigeon breeder's were the most fit?
My definition????

Those that were most 'fit' were those whichever the breeder choose to keep
The fitter pigeons bred more regardless of the reasons as to why any particular traits increased their fitness, yes?
Yes, which is what Assyrian disagrees with.

That which survived survived
It's still classic evolution, only the environment is one in which survival is determined by an environment consisting of intelligent agents choosing traits they fancy, rather than some combination of foraging, predation, mate choice, and competition against other organisms.
Yes, that is why it's not a good analogy insofar as nature doesn't 'select' in the same manner a breeder does
 
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chris4243

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I've noted you can predict things in maths.

And we've noted that you are wrong. Science can predict things. Math can know things. If you want to pretend that engineering is a branch of math (not just that it uses math), that's up to you. Otherwise, you gave a false example of math predicting something, by giving engineering predictions instead of math predictions.

And as I said before,
"the best survivors survive the best" and
"In Euclidean geometry, if a convex polygon has n sides, then its interior angle sum is given by the following equation: S = ( n −2) × 180°."
both are tautologies, both technically convey no new information, yet both are useful.
 
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Montalban

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And we've noted that you are wrong.
Who's 'we'? As far as I know you're the only one here with this idea of maths!

Maths can be used to predict that a structure won't fall down.
Science can predict things. Math can know things. If you want to pretend that engineering is a branch of math (not just that it uses math), that's up to you. Otherwise, you gave a false example of math predicting something, by giving engineering predictions instead of math predictions.
What's the difference in maths being used by engineers to predict something and someone else using it?
 
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Keachian

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Who's 'we'? As far as I know you're the only one here with this idea of maths!
Logician and mathematics philosophy student here. I'd also agree with Chris. Math only states that 1+1=2 in a system with well defined symbols 1,+,= and 2. I can just as easily state that
(λx. x) a = a
and again only in a system with well defined symbols do we know how to do the above and what the above means.

Maths can be used to predict that a structure won't fall down.
That is an application of maths specific to physics as applied in engineering.

What's the difference in maths being used by engineers to predict something and someone else using it?
Seriously? That's like asking what's the difference with a computer being used to program and it being used in any other situation. Application of maths is an incredibly small field.
 
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Assyrian

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How a person of intelligence choosing traits is analogous to nature not choosing is still not known to me
You mean nature not consciously choosing? Because the effect on the pigeon gene pool is the same, it changes in response to the selection pressure. The alternative you are proposing is to deny the validity of every single laboratory experiment because the intelligence of the experimenter magically changes the results.
 
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Assyrian

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Yes it is because what is 'fit' is simply determined by that which survives.
No I see the mistake you are making here. Surviving is determined by it being fit, we sometimes determine (in the sense of figuring out) what is fit when we see what survives, but even then we can usually tell why this trait enabled it to survive. We can often tell in advance too from looking at the traits what the outcome is going to be.

No. You suggested examples of fitness which are based on you supposing that they are fit because the animals surivive

Something with white fur is 'fit' because it survives.

Something with brown fur is 'fit' because it survives.

and so on
You have yet to explain why white fur is so popular in the arctic. it is not enough to show light furred animals somewhere else or animals with dark fur in the arctic, but why so many of the species up there are white. Is it because white fur is selected because the camouflage helps protect them from predators, or some sort of inbuilt fashion sense?


Only in part - firstly they note that people call it a tautology
Obviously. Then he show they are wrong.

(and I also note that others here do too)
Only in the sense that all knowledge can be seen as a tautologous, not sure I agree there, but if that were the case, there is nothing particularly different about survival of the fittest, if it is only a tautology in the sense that all knowledge is a tautology, then tautology isn't the basis for any criticism, unless again you want to abandon all knowledge.

they then suggest another criteria but offer nothing but a person picking traits which has no relevence to nature.
Pigeons are natural and the response of the gene pool to selective pressure is the same whether it come it feathers and a curved beak, a tweed suit or a white lab coat.

The only real criteria is survival
You keep forgetting the most obvious criteria having traits that are suited to the environment, 'fit'.
 
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Montalban

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Logician and mathematics philosophy student here. I'd also agree with Chris. Math only states that 1+1=2 in a system with well defined symbols 1,+,= and 2. I can just as easily state that
(λx. x) a = a
and again only in a system with well defined symbols do we know how to do the above and what the above means.
So you can't use maths to predict a bridge won't fall?

That is an application of maths specific to physics as applied in engineering.

So you can't use maths to predict a bridge won't fall? The statement was that maths could not be used to make ANY predictions. If you want to qualify that statement, fine. I have no idea why you're here arguing against me who didn't make an absolute statement that is clearly false
Seriously? That's like asking what's the difference with a computer being used to program and it being used in any other situation. Application of maths is an incredibly small field.

What don't you understand about absolute statements?
 
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Montalban

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No I see the mistake you are making here.
I wouldn't say engaging in discussion with you is a mistake.
Surviving is determined by it being fit,
What else is there?

You can't have "Survival of the fittest and others"

we sometimes determine (in the sense of figuring out) what is fit when we see what survives, but even then we can usually tell why this trait enabled it to survive. We can often tell in advance too from looking at the traits what the outcome is going to be.
Absolutely you can't, that's why it's such a hollow statement
You have yet to explain why white fur is so popular in the arctic.
It isn't. I noted several animals that don't have white fur.

it is not enough to show light furred animals somewhere else or animals with dark fur in the arctic, but why so many of the species up there are white. Is it because white fur is selected because the camouflage helps protect them from predators, or some sort of inbuilt fashion sense?
That's assuming that all the potential predators see in the same spectrum of light as we do, which they don't, so I can see why you're making that mistake. What I don't get is why you didn't address the issue of the animals that DO NOT have white fur.
Obviously. Then he show they are wrong.
You'll have to re-work that sentence to conform to standard English
Only in the sense that all knowledge can be seen as a tautologous, not sure I agree there, but if that were the case, there is nothing particularly different about survival of the fittest, if it is only a tautology in the sense that all knowledge is a tautology, then tautology isn't the basis for any criticism, unless again you want to abandon all knowledge.
All knowledge isn't a tautology. Certainly one can express other aspects of knowledge in such a manner.
Pigeons are natural and the response of the gene pool to selective pressure is the same whether it come it feathers and a curved beak, a tweed suit or a white lab coat.
Breeders choosing is nothing to do with natural selection
You keep forgetting the most obvious criteria having traits that are suited to the environment, 'fit'.
No. What makes it 'fit' is that it survived.

If it weren't then it's a matter of 'survival of the fittest, and others'
 
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shernren

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Let me ask you something, Montalban, since you've cited Gould before: do you think Gould's criticisms of evolution are valid?

(If you do, then you don't actually believe that survival of the fittest is true after all. ;) )
 
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Assyrian

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Talkorigins give the classic muddled apology:

Firstly they pass the buck by claiming that the phrase "survival of the fittest" was not Darwin's but urged upon him.
Well if creationists want to criticise his theory that worked perfectly well before he adopted it, then it is well worth pointing out. Criticising survival of the fittest as a tautology is not only inaccurate, it is silly to keep using it as an excuse when it wasn't even Darwin's phrase and was only adopted in later editions of the book. The reason it was adopted was to avoid a misunderstanding of natural selection which you pointed out yourself, anthropomorphising natural selection, nature does not consciously choose traits. Survival of the fittest shows how natural selection works, organisms most suited to their environment are better able to survive and pass on their traits. Of course no one can get around the problem of people really really really wanting to misunderstand and latching onto any excuse to reject evolution.

This is to abrogate responsibility because Darwin (a person with a brain) used it, and not only freely did so but said it was the preferred description
Well an explanation nobody had misunderstood yet was definitely preferable to a misunderstanding people kept making. But even then it was simply the briefest summary of a process he spent the a whole book explaining and providing evidence for, and that regardless of the phraseology Darwin used, has been studied intensively and confirmed by science over and over again for 150 years. If you want to use your misunderstanding of the phrase as an excuse to reject the evidence for evolution, then that is all it is, an excuse.

However, there is another, more sophisticated version, due mainly to Karl Popper [1976: sect. 37]. According to Popper, any situation where species exist is compatible with Darwinian explanation, because if those species were not adapted, they would not exist. That is, Popper says, we define adaptation as that which is sufficient for existence in a given environment. Therefore, since nothing is ruled out, the theory has no explanatory power, for everything is ruled in.(Ibid.)

They go on with more contradiction here:
This is not true, as a number of critics of Popper have observed since (eg, Stamos [1996] [note 1]). Darwinian theory rules out quite a lot. It rules out the existence of inefficient organisms when more efficient organisms are about. It rules out change that is theoretically impossible (according to the laws of genetics, ontogeny, and molecular biology) to achieve in gradual and adaptive steps (see Dawkins [1996]). It rules out new species being established without ancestral species.(Ibid.)

Which is contradicted by their own argument AGAINST design. They claim that a proof we're not designed is that our eyes are so poorly constructed - with a blind-spot. Our eyes very 'inefficiencies' they use as a proof. Yet they're saying that Darwin would exclude inefficient creatures. Darwin does not!
No a more efficient design would be selected if it existed, but gradual steps can't get you away from the blind spot. It can minimise the effect of the blind spot and evolve brains that 'fill in the blanks' but it can't get rid of the blind spot. A designer could. So the fact we actually have features like a blind spot is evidence we evolved rather than being designed. It is not evidence against natural selection.

Interesting you could read through the whole page debunking the tautology claim and only come up with a bad argument about design.

The peacock bird being one example, (which happened to trouble him a lot) with is massive 'inefficient' tail
It is called sexual selection. Attracting a mate is a pretty powerful selection pressure which Darwin him goes into in great detail. Being suited to the environment wasn't the only selection pressure he saw working.
 
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Montalban

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Well if creationists want to criticise his theory that worked perfectly well before he adopted it, then it is well worth pointing out.

I don't understand this. His theory worked before he adopted it?

Criticising survival of the fittest as a tautology is not only inaccurate, it is silly to keep using it as an excuse when it wasn't even Darwin's phrase and was only adopted in later editions of the book.
Funnily, I addressed this in the post you're replying to. You're meant to make this statement and then I address it, not the other way around.

For the lurkers: Darwin not only freely use this phrase he said it was preferred!

"But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer, of the Survival of the Fittest, is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient."
from the 6th edition of "Origin of the Species"

The reason it was adopted was to avoid a misunderstanding of natural selection which you pointed out yourself, anthropomorphising natural selection, nature does not consciously choose traits. Survival of the fittest shows how natural selection works,

It doesn't matter what excuse one gives for him using it.
Interesting you could read through the whole page debunking the tautology claim and only come up with a bad argument about design.
It's that site's argument! I have no idea what's with the selective use of evidence!


It is called sexual selection.
I know.
 
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Assyrian

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Wiki has this interesting thing to say:

The phrase "survival of the fittest" is not generally used by modern biologists as the term does not accurately convey the meaning of natural selection

So they're saying that biologists now prefer 'natural selection' to describe evolution. It's even worse that "survival of the fittest"

Natural selection means nature selects.

That's it.

It's even less helpful
Natural selection means the different ways selection occurs in nature, and is not limited by your ability to make up tautologies. And as you pointed out there are other forms of selection in nature than just which organisms are the best adapted to the environment, you pointed out sexual selection, you also have ones like founder effect. Natural selection covers them all.
 
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Montalban

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Richard Dawkins, well known amongst evolutionaries suggested using computer modelling to show how relatively easily mutations can leap from one creature to another. He is very keen to get people interested in these as they are simple to run and suggest much change over little time...

“Dawkins started from a conventional recursive algorithm : for each iteration, a new connection is generated. The aim was to generate tree forms. Starting from a trunk, to any new iteration corresponds a sub-branch. The use of biomorph quickly showed the algorithm was absolutely not limited to the realization of different trees (apple trees, fir trees ...) ; but could also generate many types of forms, biological or not. Dawkins was therefore quite surprised to discover an insect-looking biomorph followed by planes, bats, branched candlesticks?”
Introduction to Biomorphs, Dawkins and the blind watchmaker.

The funniest thing is... sorry, I'm going to have to write it again!
“Dawkins was therefore quite surprised to discover an insect-looking biomorph followed by planes, bats, branched candlesticks?”
So, this magical program that is supposed to represent life actually can also produce aeroplanes! I'd like to see DNA morph into such things!

The next bit is just as funny...
“The use of biomorph is very simple. The eye of the user plays the role of natural selection. Starting from a given form, the user will systematically select the biomorph whose resemblance -very subtle at the beginning - is closer to the wanted form. After a certain number of generations, the result will draw near to the aim.” (Ibid)

So, in other words, you an intelligent actor weed out the programs that don't look like anything that resembles a living thing. Then you keep building up on the programs that look most like life. You are the creator of this cyber-universe! So much for 'natural' selection!

Here's what Richard Milton says about computer modelling....granted this is referring to whole creatures like Dawkins did...but hopefully you'll get the point...
“In his book “The Blind Watchmaker” Richard Dawkins describes a computer program he wrote which randomly generates symmetrical figures from dots and lines. These figures, to a human eye, have a resemblance to a variety of objects. Dawkins gives some of them insect and animal names...Dawkins calls these creations 'biomorphs' meaning life shapes or living shapes...He also refers to them as “quasi-biological' forms and in a moment of excitement calls them 'exquisite creatures'. He plainly believes that in some way they correspond to the real word of living animals
(Dawkins says of his biomorphs) “With a wild surmise, I began to breed generation after generation... my incredulity grew in parallel with the evolving resemblance... Admittedly they have like a spider...” (However) The only thing about the biomorphs that is biological is Richard Dawkins, their creator. The program Dawkins wrote and the computer he used have no analog at all in the real biological world...his program is not a true representation of random mutation coupled with natural selection. On the contrary it is dependent on artificial selections (conducted by Dawkins) in which he controls the rate of occurrence. There is also no failure in his program: his biomorphs are not subject to fatal consequences of degenerate mutations like real living things. And most important of all, he chooses which are the luck individuals to receive the next mutation.” quoted from “Shattering the Myths of Darwinism” pp168-9.
 
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Montalban

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Natural selection means the different ways selection occurs in nature, and is not limited by your ability to make up tautologies. And as you pointed out there are other forms of selection in nature than just which organisms are the best adapted to the environment, you pointed out sexual selection, you also have ones like founder effect. Natural selection covers them all.

What different ways?

Some animals survive, others don't.
 
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Montalban

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Another fraud explanation revolves around the 'typing monkeys' scenario

A good example is the Typing Monkeys scearnio
“Attempts have been made to support evolution by appealing to mathematics to justify long ages. For example, Nobel prize winner, George Wald, wrote, “Time is the hero of the plot. Given enough time anything can happen - the impossible becomes probable, the improbable becomes certain.” (1)

Thomas Huxley (“Darwin's Bulldog”) used this technique in Oxford, in 1860, while debating Samuel Wilberforce. He stated that if monkeys randomly strummed typewriter keys for a long enough time, then sooner or later Psalm 23 would be printed out. Huxley used this argument to demonstrate that life could have originated on Earth by chance. (2)

Julian Huxley (1887-1975) repeated this analogy to 'prove' that long periods of time could allow impossible evolution to occur. In his analogy, given enough time, monkeys randomly typing on typewriters could eventually type out the complete works of Shakespeare. (3)

Stephen Hawking used the monkey story in 1988. He proposed that if there was a horde of typing monkeys, then “very occasionally by pure chance they will type out one of Shakespeare's sonnets.” (4)

When all these outlandish statements were made “... no evolutionary scientist or mathematician who knew better raised a single objection.” (5) So as a result, these statements have convinced many people that 5 billion years is enough time for life to evolve on Earth.”
Those Typing Monkeys Don't Prove Evolution

Dawkins continues this hypothesis in his novel “The Blind Watchmaker”
Dawkins provides an easy-to-understand computer simulation of the principle of selection from random mutations using the example of a “monkey typist.” The monkey's first efforts on the typewriter produce the following random string of characters:
WDLMNLT DTJBKWIRZREZLMQCO P

Dawkins now “breeds” from this incomprehensible starting point a litter of “progeny” in each one of which a letter is randomly changed to any other letter (with a space counting as a letter). Of all the offspring, only one is kept for continued breeding; the one whose letter sequence matches more closely, however, slightly, the Shakespearean phrase:

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL

After forty-one generations of “breeding,” the random initial phrase “evolves” into the target phrase: “METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL.”
Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, 47-8.
quoted at
Evolution
and
“A potential source of confusion is the idea of evolution having a “target;'' we have normally combined this activity with others, such as Selection in Action, to address this. Cumulative SelectionOne of the most frequent arguments one hears against the theory of evolution is that complex forms and behaviors simply couldn't have evolved by ``random chance'' alone. The point we must often get across to students is that evolution does not, in fact, work this way; change is cumulative. Richard Dawkins, in his book The Blind Watchmaker, dispels the myth of random chance by using the very metaphor that opponents of evolution often turn to: the monkey at the typewriter. This program models his suggestion that, were a monkey allowed to type random letters, he would produce a work of Shakespeare very quickly if letters he happened to type in the right places were preserved with each attempt. With this program, students type in a phrase of their choosing and observe how long a random phrase takes to ``evolve'' into their target phrase. Below are some sample investigations...”
http://www.geocities.com/jscarrie/sf0/bill.html

However, the problem is that these proposals rest on the anti-evolutionary idea of 'purpose'.
“When I observe that Richard Dawkins was unable to write a computer program that simulated his linguistic thought experiment, I did not mean that the task at hand was difficult. It is impossible. Mr Wadkins commends the discussion in Keen and Spain's Computer Simulation in Biology as a counterexample; it is no such thing. What Keen and Spain have done is (to) transcribe Dawkins's blunder into the computer language BASIC. Here are the steps that they undertake. A target sentence is selected “BASIC BIOLOGICAL MODELLING IS FUN”. The computer is given a randomly derived set of letters. The letters are scrambled. At each iteration, the computer (or the programmer) compares the randomly derived sequence with the target phrase. If the arrays - sequences on the one hand, target phrase on the other - do not match, the experiment continues; if they do, it stops.
There is nothing in this that is not also in Dawkins, the fog spreading from one book to the next. The experiment that Keen and Spain conduct is successful inasmuch as the computer reaches the target; but unsuccessful as a defense of Darwinian evolution. In looking to its target and comparing distances, the computer is appealing to information a biological system could not possess.
The point seems to be less straightforward than I imagined, so let me spell out the mistake. Starting from a random string, suppose the computer generates the sequence BNDIT DISNE SOT SODISWN TOSWXMSPW SSO. Comparing the sequence with its target, it proposes to conserve the initial “B”. But why? The string is gibberish. Plainly, the conservation of vagrant successes has been undertaken with the computer's eye fixed firmly on its future target, intermediates selected not for what they are (gibberish, after all), but for what they will be (an English sentence). This is in violation of the rule against deferred success. Without the rule, there is nothing remotely like Darwinian evolution. What the computer has in fact done is to match randomly selected items to a template, thus inevitably reintroducing the element of deliberate design banished from the Darwinian model.”
David Berlinski; “Letters: David Berlinski and Critics” in Dembski, W. A. (ed) “Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals who Find Darwinism Unconvincing”, p304
 
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