Genesis Genetics, revisited

[Justatruthseeker]

Why, just look at the human population growth, although they left out the rise up to and then decline from the flood 4,000+ years ago.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

"Hybridization increased additive genetic and environmental variances, increased heritabilities to a moderate extent, and generally strengthened phenotypic and genetic correlations. New additive genetic variance introduced by hybridization is estimated to be two to three orders of magnitude greater than that introduced by mutation."

So new additive genetic variance is two to three times greater than that introduced by mutations from mating. This is because recombining genomes at inception affects several loci at once, while your mutation affects one single loci. If it doesn't happen to be neutral, and if it doesn't happen to be harmful.

So the simple breeding of those pairs increases new additive genetic variance two to three times more than mutation.

It's fantastic that you freely admit that mutation and hybridization can produce new traits in populations leading to diversification and speciation. You really should take this up with the "no new information" crowd, though. As usual, creationists need to get their own ideas worked out before criticizing the evidence based scientific consensus held by 99% of all scientists in the relevant fields.

 

[pitabread]

It's fantastic that you freely admit that mutation and hybridization can produce new traits in populations leading to diversification and speciation. You really should take this up with the "no new information" crowd, though. As usual, creationists need to get their own ideas worked out before criticizing the evidence based scientific consensus held by 99% of all scientists in the relevant fields.

What is really odd is Justatruthseeker has a history of arguing against speciation, whereas most modern YECs propose rapid speciation via hyperevolution.

 

[AV1611VET]

No offence meant AV, but I was addressing justafinchseeker.

And I was addressing Ophiolite.

 

[Jimmy D]

And I was addressing Ophiolite.

I quoted the wrong post sorry. I was referring to the post in which you were addressing me.

 

[Jimmy D]

I did, you just didnt like the answer.

OP's Point.

"So, creationists, HOW did today's diversity arise from a pair or a few pairs since the Flood (which, for YECs, means that all of this diversity has to be explained as having occurred in only a few thousand years with nobody noticing)?"

Answer. Again:

"Hybridization increased additive genetic and environmental variances, increased heritabilities to a moderate extent, and generally strengthened phenotypic and genetic correlations. New additive genetic variance introduced by hybridization is estimated to be two to three orders of magnitude greater than that introduced by mutation."

So new additive genetic variance is two to three times greater than that introduced by mutations from mating. This is because recombining genomes at inception affects several loci at once, while your mutation affects one single loci. If it doesn't happen to be neutral, and if it doesn't happen to be harmful.

So the simple breeding of those pairs increases new additive genetic variance two to three times more than mutation.

Quit ignoring the answer because you don't like to hear the reality that mutation just isn't that important in producing variation....

As I said, we are all understand how hybridisation works in the real world. It’s your bizarre creationist version that needs explaining.

Are you suggesting that original ‘created kinds’ could interbreed?

 

[AV1611VET]

I was referring to the post in which you were addressing me.

Okay ... sorry.

 

[Aman777]

Background*: All living things were Created by God no more than 10,000 years ago. These original creationists were not necessarily the same creatures we see today, but were the original 'Created Kind' - the Dog-Kind, Elephant-Kind, Pig-Kind, etc.

False, since there are only two kinds. Temporal and Immortal. His and Their kinds.

And then came the Flood.

Only to Adam's small world which was only a few miles in diameter It lies today at the bottom of Lake Van, Turkey, in the mountains of Ararat.

The Genesis genetics problems are compounded by those that insist that there were no mutations before the Fall, or that mutations play no role in diversity, etc.

Ancient theological foolishness. Humans (descendants of Adam) inherited the genetics of the common ancestor of Apes when Noah's grandsons married and produced children with the prehistoric people (sons of God) who were here for millions of years before the first Humans arrived. Genesis 6:4

 

[Justatruthseeker]

What is really odd is Justatruthseeker has a history of arguing against speciation, whereas most modern YECs propose rapid speciation via hyperevolution.

Because there is no such thing as speciation, except when subspecies are incorrectly labeled as separate species.
Variation and diversification within the species, yes. One species becoming another, no. Classify them correctly as subspecies and that speciation problem evolutionists have will go away.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

As I said, we are all understand how hybridisation works in the real world. It’s your bizarre creationist version that needs explaining.

Are you suggesting that original ‘created kinds’ could interbreed?

Last I checked Horses breed with horses, humans with humans, apes with apes, Bats with bats, cats with cats, crocodile with crocodile.

You've got your proof of variation finches, dogs, etc.

Oh that's right, you think finches mating right in front of your nose are separate species, my bad.....

 

[Jimmy D]

Why, just look at the human population growth, although they left out the rise up to and then decline from the flood 4,000+ years ago.

So what is it... accurate or inaccurate? Make your mind up. If you don't think it shows the mysterious rise and decline you propose why post it? Why not post a graph and data that demonstrates what you're asserting?

(It's a rhetorical question, obviously no such data or graph will show such a thing).

 

[Jimmy D]

Last I checked Horses breed with horses, humans with humans, apes with apes, Bats with bats, cats with cats, crocodile with crocodile.

You've got your proof of variation finches, dogs, etc.

Oh that's right, you think finches mating right in front of your nose are separate species, my bad.....

So how did the original created kinds hybridize?

Are wolves and dogs the same kind? And were they both on this ark you seem to believe in?

 

[AV1611VET]

So how did the original created kinds hybridize?

Are wolves and dogs the same kind? And were they both on this ark you seem to believe in?

You want my answer or his? or both?

 

[Jimmy D]

You want my answer or his? or both?

His.

Again, no offence meant, but I'm aware of your position.

 

[AV1611VET]

His.

Again, no offence meant, but I'm aware of your position.

No problem.

 

[tas8831]

Ask the Grants, they found out from reality how the diversity got there.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1558-5646.1994.tb01313.x

"Hybridization increased additive genetic and environmental variances, increased heritabilities to a moderate extent, and generally strengthened phenotypic and genetic correlations. New additive genetic variance introduced by hybridization is estimated to be two to three orders of magnitude greater than that introduced by mutation."

It is exceptionally dishonest for the creationist to re-introduce this already debunked quote yet again:

Does science actually admit "design"?

Evolution - Speciation finally observed in the wild?

And many others...

It is not our fault that you do not understand genetics, nor even what words like "variance" mean.

So new additive genetic variance is two to three times greater than that introduced by mutations from mating.

Mutations are not introduced from mating. You really should not be pontificating about this stuff - you are embarrassing yourself, and don't seem to know it.

This is because recombining genomes at inception affects several loci at once

Recombining alleles, you mean...

, while your mutation affects one single loci.

"Loci" is plural. A mutation may affect a single locus, but with all your (fake) genetics knowledge, surely you understand that single genes often affect multiple aspects of phenotype?

Just accept the reality found to be valid in the wild.

That it is faster to alter phenotype by mixing up alleles?
How do you suppose those new alleles came to be if mutations are not the answer? Why, under your naive genetics, would members of a kind have multiple alleles for the same loci?

And oh my how you all seem to always forget dogs and the extraordinary variance produced by breeding.....

In reality, this had to be explained to you over and over - but please bring it up again so I can save time writing new replies and just search the forum for the last times I or others shot down your simplistic claims.


Why are creationists like this?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Add to your argument how did people get different blood types might be revelant and i'm curious myself

Everyone and all life is as Yahweh created , beautifully and wisely and full of wonder and mystery hidden from mankind even though revealed out in the open for all to see and marvel in !
Yahweh had no trouble creating uncountable variations of life everywhere there is any life,
and planned everything that happened after the world flood destroyed the life on earth
before the world or any life on earth was even created yet.
He created everything extremely generously, to supply all that is needed perfectly in His perfect knowledge and wisdom, with no faults , nothing missing, and with no sin present in Himself ever.

 

[Ophiolite]

Why are creationists like this?

Perhaps, despite their name, it's because they are not very creative.

 

[Aman777]

In reality, this had to be explained to you over and over - but please bring it up again so I can save time writing new replies and just search the forum for the last times I or others shot down your simplistic claims.

Can't say that about my view. Is that why you hide? Of course it is.

 

[Brightmoon]

Add to your argument how did people get different blood types might be revelant and i'm curious myself

. There are 6 blood types A1, A2, (A1-A2), B, AB, O. A1, A2, and A1-A2 are all type A blood . B is a slightly different version of A . Type O is due to missing a enzyme that puts a sugar/ protein chemical on the outside of the blood cell. That sugar/protein chemical causes the A or B blood type The O is actually a zero since the sugar/ chemical isn’t able to attach to the blood cell. AB is due to one parent having type A ( any one) and another parent having type B . Since you get one allele from each parent the actual genotypes are
for type A:
A1-A1, A1-O, A1-A2, A2-O, A2-A2
For type B:
B-B , B-O
For type O:
O-O
For type AB:
A1-B, A2-B,
All A types are interchangeable in a blood transfusion