Genesis and the Fall

tampasteve

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Instead of saying it’s ridiculous, how about saying you just disagree with him? I mean he IS a trained pastor and we aren’t. And anyway, like I said, I believe the Creed and that’s what’s most important.
Valid point, you are right - perhaps my wording was overly harsh. But I do think that how he is arriving at that point of view is a mistaken.
 
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FaithT

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Valid point, you are right - perhaps my wording was overly harsh. But I do think that how he is arriving at that point of view is a mistaken.
Not that it matters, it probably doesn’t, but my pastor said that “if you take all of the supernatural things in the Bible as figurative, you‘ve just eliminated the resurrection,“ not one or two things. Then again it may have been a figure of speech on his part and maybe he meant some, not all. Again, I believe the Creed so it’s all good.
 
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tampasteve

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Not that it matters, it probably doesn’t, but my pastor said that “if you take all of the supernatural things in the Bible as figurative, you‘ve just eliminated the resurrection,“ not one or two things. Then again it may have been a figure of speech on his part and maybe he meant some, not all. Again, I believe the Creed so it’s all good.
Good point, I read it as "if you take out one thing as figurative then you also loose the Resurrection as literal" I feel that is the direction he is leaning based on his previous statement on Jonah as well. Perhaps not though. :)

That said, if he doesn't mind then that is good. The Creed is the basic expression of the faith - so as long as one can believe that you have a solid foundation.
 
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FaithT

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Good point, I read it as "if you take out one thing as figurative then you also loose the Resurrection as literal" I feel that is the direction he is leaning based on his previous statement on Jonah as well. Perhaps not though. :)

That said, if he doesn't mind then that is good. The Creed is the basic expression of the faith - so as long as one can believe that you have a solid foundation.
Yeah,I’ve been reciting the Apostles Creed since I was a Catholic kid, with the exception of when I stopped going to church altogether from my 20’s till many years later.
 
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All Glory To God

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My pastor replied but didn’t actually answer my question which was can you still be LCMS if you interpret the talking snake as figurative. He said something like,
“The difficulty is that if you take all of the supernatural things in the Bible as figurative, you‘ve just eliminated the resurrection.
The snake is no different than the resurrection… they are all things that cannot be explained by natural science.”

I just replied and asked if while I’m struggling with this can I still be LCMS?


It sounds to me like your pastor is affirming the innenrancy of the scripture, to that I would give an amen.

Personal I do not think the serpent was snake like in its original form because the punishment for it was to crawl on the belly, implying it was in the standing or upright position. Crawling on your belly when you already do that is not much of a punishment is it? Anyway this is the garden, Adam walked with God and ate from the tree of life both of which have now been withheld, the setting was drastically different to what we know now.

Hope that helps.
 
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FaithT

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It sounds to me like your pastor is affirming the innenrancy of the scripture, to that I would give an amen.

Personal I do not think the serpent was snake like in its original form because the punishment for it was to crawl on the belly, implying it was in the standing or upright position. Crawling on your belly when you already do that is not much of a punishment is it? Anyway this is the garden, Adam walked with God and ate from the tree of life both of which have now been withheld, the setting was drastically different to what we know now.

Hope that helps.
Do you mean that life as we know it didn’t exist at that time, and was really different back then?
 
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All Glory To God

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Do you mean that life as we know it didn’t exist at that time, and was really different back then?

I will run thru some points that relate to this.

-I think the garden was real and the Genesis account happened as described in the Bible
-I think Adams eating from the forbidden tree caused the punishments that lead to eviction from the garden and inherited sin for all following generations. (Romans 5:12)
-I think all people have a sin nature due to Adams sin and the consequences.

Without the serpent to trigger all this off it wouldn't be.

Question: If sin didn't come from Adam,where did it come from?
 
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FaithT

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It sounds to me like your pastor is affirming the innenrancy of the scripture, to that I would give an amen.

Personal I do not think the serpent was snake like in its original form because the punishment for it was to crawl on the belly, implying it was in the standing or upright position. Crawling on your belly when you already do that is not much of a punishment is it? Anyway this is the garden, Adam walked with God and ate from the tree of life both of which have now been withheld, the setting was drastically different to what we know now.

Hope that helps.
If the snake was really in the form of Satan at first, he could’ve been punished to become a snake and crawl on his belly. This is all just speculation though. Like someone said, the information we do have is all God thought we needed to know.
 
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All Glory To God

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If the snake was really in the form of Satan at first, he could’ve been punished to become a snake and crawl on his belly. This is all just speculation though. Like someone said, the information we do have is all God thought we needed to know.

That Sounds reasonable.
 
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tampasteve

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I will run thru some points that relate to this.

-I think the garden was real and the Genesis account happened as described in the Bible
-I think Adams eating from the forbidden tree caused the punishments that lead to eviction from the garden and inherited sin for all following generations. (Romans 5:12)
-I think all people have a sin nature due to Adams sin and the consequences.

Without the serpent to trigger all this off it wouldn't be.

Question: If sin didn't come from Adam,where did it come from?
I am on board with these statements :) I also agree with what you said a post before:
Anyway this is the garden, Adam walked with God and ate from the tree of life both of which have now been withheld, the setting was drastically different to what we know now.
That makes a lot of sense. Sometimes we try and look at passages from our limited understandings and experiences, when that just does not make sense. I think this is one of those cases. Adam and Eve literally walked and talked with God, and we can assume His other spiritual realm creations. Their reality was vastly different from ours.
 
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All Glory To God

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I am on board with these statements :) I also agree with what you said a post before:

That makes a lot of sense. Sometimes we try and look at passages from our limited understandings and experiences, when that just does not make sense. I think this is one of those cases. Adam and Eve literally walked and talked with God, and we can assume His other spiritual realm creations. Their reality was vastly different from ours.


I can also add this in regard to the fall and sin entering into the world due to Adam. Many people often protest that Adams actions are his own,his punishment stops with him and does not continue after. The unfairness of future generations being affected by Adams sin is unreasonable,however who is in a better position to defend this sin? Adam was in the Garden,we were no. Adam knew god directly,we do not. Adam was in the environment in which this incident happened,we are not. Adam has the full information on how the sin happened,we do not.

So who would be better suited to make a defense Adam or his descendants?
 
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FaithT

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I can also add this in regard to the fall and sin entering into the world due to Adam. Many people often protest that Adams actions are his own,his punishment stops with him and does not continue after. The unfairness of future generations being affected by Adams sin is unreasonable,however who is in a better position to defend this sin? Adam was in the Garden,we were no. Adam knew god directly,we do not. Adam was in the environment in which this incident happened,we are not. Adam has the full information on how the sin happened,we do not.

So who would be better suited to make a defense Adam or his descendants?
Good points to ponder.
 
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FaithT

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I am on board with these statements :) I also agree with what you said a post before:

That makes a lot of sense. Sometimes we try and look at passages from our limited understandings and experiences, when that just does not make sense. I think this is one of those cases. Adam and Eve literally walked and talked with God, and we can assume His other spiritual realm creations. Their reality was vastly different from ours.
Yes, and I have a tattoo above my ankle that’s a cross, rose and says Proverbs 3:5 as a reminder of that.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Daniel9v9, do you care to contribute to this conversation?

Hey, thanks for the invite.

I think it's great that people want to study Genesis, and I recognise that it's a book that is challenging for all of us to fully comprehend, in the sense that it deals with things no one have ever seen or experienced. Everything in Genesis is foreign to us, and because of this, it can easily be a source of confusion. But that's not its intention. The purpose of Genesis as recorded for us is to lay the foundation for Exodus, then all of Scripture, culminating in Christ. (You can think of it like just as how the OT is the foundation to the NT, and the NT must be understood in light of the OT, in a similar way Genesis is to Exodus) So, very simply, Genesis must primarily be understood as a book of WHY not HOW. This is very important to bear in mind when studying it.

Genesis records for us epic and highly complex events, both with respect to creation (how) and theology (why). It contains many things that are tremendously significant and carries a lot of meaning, which, regrettably, are often misunderstood, overlooked, or ignored in our day.

Perhaps the language of "literal vs figurative" isn't always that helpful, as these terms often come with presuppositions. To many, "literal" is synonymous with unscientific, which is not true. To take literal to mean unscientific betrays a lack of understanding about theology and the relationship between science and philosophy. To others, "figurative" is synonymous with a complete disregard for God's Word. While that's true of some scholars, I don't think that's an accurate understanding either. If by figurative, we mean that Scriptures often use imagery to explain certain ideas, then that's true. My point is this: Take the expression "Our Father in heaven." This is both literal and symbolical at the same time. God is not our earthly father, but He is our creator and true father. We can apply this principle to Genesis.

I think the best way to consider Genesis is understanding that it deals with something very complex, but in few and poetic words. And so, we should understand the text on its own terms in its own language. We should not disregard it as myth, nor attempt to force a modern philosophical-theoretical framework on it. It is the true Word of God and it stands on its own.

This is a long introductory speech, but I feel like it's an important foundation to build before discussing the text proper.

Here's an example (which I've used before) to encapsulate some of these ideas - mainly, the important truth of God creating the world ex nihilo, out of nothing.

What is created cannot be measured. Suppose there was a man who could create anything out of nothing. In one instance, his hand is empty. In the next, there is a rock. Now, if a modern scientist were to observe and test the rock to try and define its origin, he would almost by the necessity of the framework he's working in conclude that the rock must have been developed over a period of time and in a particular way, failing to grasp that it came out of nothing - he came to this false conclusion because he left the creator out of the equation.

So this is to say, it's not a good starting point to study Genesis through the lens of theoretical science and contemporary philosophy. Hard science does not disprove Genesis, so there's no reason to doubt or to question the text. Furthermore, it speaks of supernatural intervention, which is the same as a miracle. And with all miracles in the Bible, we cannot understand how they occur. We cannot understand, scientifically speaking, how Jesus was raised from the dead, but we certainly believe it, because that is the historical truth and revealed to us by God. It's the same with Genesis.

Hope this helps. Blessings +
 
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Hey, thanks for the invite.

I think it's great that people want to study Genesis, and I recognise that it's a book that is challenging for all of us to fully comprehend, in the sense that it deals with things no one have ever seen or experienced. Everything in Genesis is foreign to us, and because of this, it can easily be a source of confusion. But that's not its intention. The purpose of Genesis as recorded for us is to lay the foundation for Exodus, then all of Scripture, culminating in Christ. (You can think of it like just as how the OT is the foundation to the NT, and the NT must be understood in light of the OT, in a similar way Genesis is to Exodus) So, very simply, Genesis must primarily be understood as a book of WHY not HOW. This is very important to bear in mind when studying it.

Genesis records for us epic and highly complex events, both with respect to creation (how) and theology (why). It contains many things that are tremendously significant and carries a lot of meaning, which, regrettably, are often misunderstood, overlooked, or ignored in our day.

Perhaps the language of "literal vs figurative" isn't always that helpful, as these terms often come with presuppositions. To many, "literal" is synonymous with unscientific, which is not true. To take literal to mean unscientific betrays a lack of understanding about theology and the relationship between science and philosophy. To others, "figurative" is synonymous with a complete disregard for God's Word. While that's true of some scholars, I don't think that's an accurate understanding either. If by figurative, we mean that Scriptures often use imagery to explain certain ideas, then that's true. My point is this: Take the expression "Our Father in heaven." This is both literal and symbolical at the same time. God is not our earthly father, but He is our creator and true father. We can apply this principle to Genesis.

I think the best way to consider Genesis is understanding that it deals with something very complex, but in few and poetic words. And so, we should understand the text on its own terms in its own language. We should not disregard it as myth, nor attempt to force a modern philosophical-theoretical framework on it. It is the true Word of God and it stands on its own.

This is a long introductory speech, but I feel like it's an important foundation to build before discussing the text proper.

Here's an example (which I've used before) to encapsulate some of these ideas - mainly, the important truth of God creating the world ex nihilo, out of nothing.

What is created cannot be measured. Suppose there was a man who could create anything out of nothing. In one instance, his hand is empty. In the next, there is a rock. Now, if a modern scientist were to observe and test the rock to try and define its origin, he would almost by the necessity of the framework he's working in conclude that the rock must have been developed over a period of time and in a particular way, failing to grasp that it came out of nothing - he came to this false conclusion because he left the creator out of the equation.

So this is to say, it's not a good starting point to study Genesis through the lens of theoretical science and contemporary philosophy. Hard science does not disprove Genesis, so there's no reason to doubt or to question the text. Furthermore, it speaks of supernatural intervention, which is the same as a miracle. And with all miracles in the Bible, we cannot understand how they occur. We cannot understand, scientifically speaking, how Jesus was raised from the dead, but we certainly believe it, because that is the historical truth and revealed to us by God. It's the same with Genesis.

Hope this helps. Blessings +
So as LCMS, we are to believe that these events actually occurred as written, but they occurred as supernatural miracles?
 
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Daniel9v9

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So as LCMS, we are to believe that these events actually occurred as written, but they occurred as supernatural miracles?

Yes, the creation of the world out of nothing, by God's Word, and the creation of man and woman out of existing elements, by God's Word and Spirit, were certainly supernatural.

Genesis is a true historical account, containing events of epic proportions, and a different world order, namely, a world where the spiritual and the physical are perfectly united, and a world without sin and death, then the attempted overthrow of God, both by Satan and by man. All of these things are very complex and difficult for us to grasp - which is why Genesis expresses these things in few, simple and poetic words; words that hold a lot of meaning and insight, but are made easy for us to digest.

In other words, in Genesis, God, by His grace, is showing us something very grand in very simple terms. I like to think of it as a father explaining his profession as a surgeon to his young child, who doesn't have the mental capacity to understand what it means to be a surgeon. The father would simply say "I use a knife to make people well." The child could either take his father at his word in childlike faith, or, reason that a knife is not used for healing, therefore his father must be lying. I wouldn't stretch this analogy too far, but the point here is that just because something seems unscientific, doesn't mean that it is. Genesis just deals with high and complex realities that we rightly understand through faith, not theoretical science or contemporary philosophy.
 
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FaithT

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Yes, the creation of the world out of nothing, by God's Word, and the creation of man and woman out of existing elements, by God's Word and Spirit, were certainly supernatural.

Genesis is a true historical account, containing events of epic proportions, and a different world order, namely, a world where the spiritual and the physical are perfectly united, and a world without sin and death, then the attempted overthrow of God, both by Satan and by man. All of these things are very complex and difficult for us to grasp - which is why Genesis expresses these things in few, simple and poetic words; words that hold a lot of meaning and insight, but are made easy for us to digest.

In other words, in Genesis, God, by His grace, is showing us something very grand in very simple terms. I like to think of it as a father explaining his profession as a surgeon to his young child, who doesn't have the mental capacity to understand what it means to be a surgeon. The father would simply say "I use a knife to make people well." The child could either take his father at his word in childlike faith, or, reason that a knife is not used for healing, therefore his father must be lying. I wouldn't stretch this analogy too far, but the point here is that just because something seems unscientific, doesn't mean that it is. Genesis just deals with high and complex realities that we rightly understand through faith, not theoretical science or contemporary philosophy.
What about the talking snake.....and later in the OT, the talking donkey?
 
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FaithT

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Yes, the creation of the world out of nothing, by God's Word, and the creation of man and woman out of existing elements, by God's Word and Spirit, were certainly supernatural.

Speaking of creation of man and woman, what do you believe about evolution and the bones and fossils found, that point in that direction?
 
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Hey, thanks for the invite.

I think it's great that people want to study Genesis, and I recognise that it's a book that is challenging for all of us to fully comprehend, in the sense that it deals with things no one have ever seen or experienced. Everything in Genesis is foreign to us, and because of this, it can easily be a source of confusion. But that's not its intention. The purpose of Genesis as recorded for us is to lay the foundation for Exodus, then all of Scripture, culminating in Christ. (You can think of it like just as how the OT is the foundation to the NT, and the NT must be understood in light of the OT, in a similar way Genesis is to Exodus) So, very simply, Genesis must primarily be understood as a book of WHY not HOW. This is very important to bear in mind when studying it.

Genesis records for us epic and highly complex events, both with respect to creation (how) and theology (why). It contains many things that are tremendously significant and carries a lot of meaning, which, regrettably, are often misunderstood, overlooked, or ignored in our day.

Perhaps the language of "literal vs figurative" isn't always that helpful, as these terms often come with presuppositions. To many, "literal" is synonymous with unscientific, which is not true. To take literal to mean unscientific betrays a lack of understanding about theology and the relationship between science and philosophy. To others, "figurative" is synonymous with a complete disregard for God's Word. While that's true of some scholars, I don't think that's an accurate understanding either. If by figurative, we mean that Scriptures often use imagery to explain certain ideas, then that's true. My point is this: Take the expression "Our Father in heaven." This is both literal and symbolical at the same time. God is not our earthly father, but He is our creator and true father. We can apply this principle to Genesis.

I think the best way to consider Genesis is understanding that it deals with something very complex, but in few and poetic words. And so, we should understand the text on its own terms in its own language. We should not disregard it as myth, nor attempt to force a modern philosophical-theoretical framework on it. It is the true Word of God and it stands on its own.

This is a long introductory speech, but I feel like it's an important foundation to build before discussing the text proper.

Here's an example (which I've used before) to encapsulate some of these ideas - mainly, the important truth of God creating the world ex nihilo, out of nothing.

What is created cannot be measured. Suppose there was a man who could create anything out of nothing. In one instance, his hand is empty. In the next, there is a rock. Now, if a modern scientist were to observe and test the rock to try and define its origin, he would almost by the necessity of the framework he's working in conclude that the rock must have been developed over a period of time and in a particular way, failing to grasp that it came out of nothing - he came to this false conclusion because he left the creator out of the equation.

So this is to say, it's not a good starting point to study Genesis through the lens of theoretical science and contemporary philosophy. Hard science does not disprove Genesis,
How does hard science not disprove Genesis when there is so much found that points toward evolution as opposed to the Biblical explanation of how people came to be?
 
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